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fearian's Avatar
Old (#51)
I feel a bit dense now :P
I dunno, I've heard too much shit come out of Jim Sterling's mouth to ever think that deep into what he's saying. But if that's really what he's trying to get at, then It's a good effort, but still a little off the point.

Largely speaking, the Half Naked male hero with a ripped body and perfect hair is not in the game to appeal to women. He's in the game for the dudes sake, to see how cool and badass he is. Ripped half naked badasses are ripped half naked badasses, because that's who we want to be when we save the world. Meanwhile most half naked women, are there to look hawt for men.


And to clarify on one thing - I do not think we need to get rid of all the half naked women. I think we need to at least provide more realistic alternatives.
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pior's Avatar
Old (#52)
Yeah I got to agree that he's not always been very refined - as a matter of fact when he moved over to the Escapist I was a bit "meh" to say the least !

But even since he's been hosted there, his videos have been constantly great and, most of the time, using subtle sarcasm (cleverly wrapped in seemingly crude humour) to drive his points. (he actually had to make a follow-up on his video from last week because most of the viewers didn't get the point in the first place hehe). A very interesting guy to follow!
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poopinmymouth's Avatar
Old (#53)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pior View Post
Now on the idea of tropes and clichés in general. Yup, most movies are unoriginal and follow overused narratives, and not only around gender issues. Again, that's something I totally agree with. Yet complaining about it is not going to change things much ... Being opinionated and bitter is her choice but again what's the point ? I'd rather hear her tell me about alternative, original story telling ideas instead of ranting over and over again. Since she obviously researched the issue, I want to hear more!
This paragraph right here shows you didn't even listen to the end of the video, or watch more than one, since she offers suggestions on how to fix these issues *multiple* times. It's almost like you heard some things that made you upset and stopped listening and had to come here and mansplain like numerous others.

I find it hilarious that we can live in a culture where 1 in 6 American women has been sexually molested, that advertising is completely and unarguably full of dehumanizing and objectifying imagery toward women, and when someone suggests this is because of a systematic objectification of women by a largely straight male dominated industry, people disagree. It's really ludicrous, and ignorant, to be honest. It shows that you haven't stopped to think about the way women have been portrayed in games, movies, and comics in any way, other than to stare.
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e-freak's Avatar
Old (#54)
Women in Refrigerators:

If a male hero goes on a quest to revenge the pointless death of his wife it's chauvinistic because the female character got killed soley for the purpose of driving the story.

If a female heroin goes on a quest to revenge the pointless death of her husband it's chauvinistic because the only reason she has to go on that quest is her husband's death? (And this story would also fail the Bechtel Test because she always talks about stuff related to her husband...)
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poopinmymouth's Avatar
Old (#55)
Quote:
Originally Posted by e-freak View Post
Women in Refrigerators:

If a male hero goes on a quest to revenge the pointless death of his wife it's chauvinistic because the female character got killed soley for the purpose of driving the story.

If a female heroin goes on a quest to revenge the pointless death of her husband it's chauvinistic because the only reason she has to go on that quest is her husband's death? (And this story would also fail the Bechtel Test because she always talks about stuff related to her husband...)
Yes to both. She has another video on True Grit, and explains that while it's great the central character is an actress, and a young one at that, she's basically written as a male character, but cast as a woman. It fails the Bechdel test and she isn't a very feminist character, showing neither growth (she's the same character from first scene to last) as well as being written full of typical male characteristics.

So yes, it's possible to write/have/script to seemingly opposite situations, where both are highly sexist. It's also possible to have both situations without it being sexist. The death of a wife could be motivator, but then all other treatments of the wife (reminiscing plus flashbacks, interactions with women in the actual story, etc, could all be done well with the women portrayed with full agency, and names! Same with the 2nd scenario, the dead husband could be the impetus, but as long as the female character still has a full personality, and isn't just a robot drone trying to fulfill the will of the husband (revenge) she can be portrayed as a full person.

Last edited by poopinmymouth; 03-11-2012 at 05:11 AM..
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pior's Avatar
Old (#56)
Well I did watch two of her videos in their fullest, and in both cases she was being sensationalist, not making much point besides repeating herself over and over again, and ending up all angry and disrespectful all by herself. It just doesn't make me want to watch any more of these - just a matter of taste!

She most likely has other things to say, but a huge part of the enjoyment of enlightenment coming from a conversation is how well articulated a point is. After having the pleasure of talking with a very respectful and intelligent women rights activist in real life, the girl from these videos seemed angry and annoying in comparaison, and that just doesn't make me want to watch more ...

Again, no one here is disagreeing with the fact that women are overly objectified in the media, and that this can have bad consequences because of uneducated idiot males douchebags. As a matter of fact, I find it just as annoying when I see a picture of a naked David Beckham suggestively framed juuuuuuuuuust above his penis in order to sell a freaking bottle of cologne at the store. Both are stupid! We get that. But if she makes a video about that ... then it's fair to expect more from just stating examples and getting angry. Also, since it is an edited video and not a casual conversation recorded "live", it is her duty to edit and revision it when she realizes that some of her points don't make any sense ("Picasso makes me puke, he was inspired by women!)...

Last edited by pior; 03-11-2012 at 05:32 AM..
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e-freak's Avatar
Old (#57)
Quote:
and isn't just a robot drone trying to fulfill the will of the husband (revenge) she can be portrayed as a full person.
it's not the husband's will to get revenge. the dude is dead... revenge characters are always narrowed down to being "robot drone"s on a quest.

Quote:
she isn't a very feminist character, showing neither growth (she's the same character from first scene to last) as well as being written full of typical male characteristics.
so, being a flat (or consistent) character is something specifically male or sexist? having male characteristics isn't allowed for a girl? should she follow the stereotypes or not? this sounds contradictary to me.

I don't know... I do understand the criticism to a certain degree, but then again, I want to cater my stories to a certain audience and I write a story for that specific audience and tell everyone else to "like it or not". I don't see much sexism in most of these stories, as (in my example in the post above) you could most of the time replace characters at random and they would still work. Reading sexism, racism etc. into those stories because they don't feature a certain person as the main actor or even exclusively is a bit holier-than-thou. Much like in the Morgan Freeman video about Black-History-Month, the ever pointing out what gender or race some one is, could well be more segregating. A lot of women I know don't care about the genders in any movie and can relate to male and female roles just as much.
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fearian's Avatar
Old (#58)
Quote:
Originally Posted by poopinmymouth View Post
Yes to both. She has another video on True Grit, and explains that while it's great the central character is an actress, and a young one at that, she's basically written as a male character, but cast as a woman. It fails the Bechdel test and she isn't a very feminist character, showing neither growth (she's the same character from first scene to last) as well as being written full of typical male characteristics.

Woah woah - going to have to watch this video because I very much disagree with that. In True Grit she isn't a very feminine character, but that's because she's a product of her environment. Living in a harsh western town, where death is common, and women are relegated to household roles and must act proper. Her rebellion against this is to take up the role of a man in this environment, for her own ends. - but this is very grounded in the time and setting of the film. There was very little of anything that you could call 'counter culture' and very few female role models breaking the mold. Probably none in small town western america in that time. There is definitely growth in her character and I feel like true grit is a terrible example.

To me this is like the people who complain that "As is typical of fantasy films, there are no black or minority characters in the new Pixar film, 'Brave"! NO SHIT there are no black dudes in 11th century SCOTLAND.

The Beschdel test is a great measuring rod, but it is not one size fits all.
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poopinmymouth's Avatar
Old (#59)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fearian View Post
Woah woah - going to have to watch this video because I very much disagree with that. In True Grit she isn't a very feminine character, but that's because she's a product of her environment. Living in a harsh western town, where death is common, and women are relegated to household roles and must act proper. Her rebellion against this is to take up the role of a man in this environment, for her own ends. - but this is very grounded in the time and setting of the film. There was very little of anything that you could call 'counter culture' and very few female role models breaking the mold. Probably none in small town western america in that time. There is definitely growth in her character and I feel like true grit is a terrible example.

To me this is like the people who complain that "As is typical of fantasy films, there are no black or minority characters in the new Pixar film, 'Brave"! NO SHIT there are no black dudes in 11th century SCOTLAND.

The Beschdel test is a great measuring rod, but it is not one size fits all.
Right, but there were also no dragons or magic or talking animals in 11th century scotland. Pixar could easily write in a character of color and the only people it would upset would be the racists, it would in no way ruin the movie on narrative alone.

And she says exactly what you did about the Bechdel test, it does not ensure a feminist movie as trash like Sucker Punch passes the test, but amazing movies like Moon and Up fail. It's merely a tool that when applied across numerous titles, can be used to show a pattern that there are far FAR fewer named female characters with fully written personalities than there are male ones, which is problematic when actual society is 50/50 men/women.

You should watch it though. I agree (with her) the character showed little growth. She was basically already a full confident, nothing phases her, person in the first scene. This isn't something I'll defend though, because again, I'm a man, and this is more of a subjective point as to whether she is portrayed as largely masculine or feminine.
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Zwebbie's Avatar
Old (#60)
Quote:
Originally Posted by poopinmymouth View Post
I find it hilarious that we can live in a culture where 1 in 6 American women has been sexually molested, that advertising is completely and unarguably full of dehumanizing and objectifying imagery toward women, and when someone suggests this is because of a systematic objectification of women by a largely straight male dominated industry, people disagree.
I find it problematic that people are trying to turn this into a male vs. female thing, as if every straight man is only trying to dehumanise the other sex. I'll have you know that I, too, feel offended every time a deodorant commercial comes up, because its marketers assume that I'll love something as long as it's associated with breasts. The media act as if we straight men are incredibly shallow and small of focus, and you seem to be believing them.
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poopinmymouth's Avatar
Old (#61)
So you take it as evidence that because you don't feel a certain way, no one does? Do you really think they would be paying for these commercials if they didn't pass focus groups and result in more sales? Please.

Men are victims of this degrading sexism as well, but it's far more damaging to women. That's why feminism is about equality, it's not about women only. If the damaging aspects toward women are fixed, it will benefit men as well.
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poopinmymouth's Avatar
Old (#62)
If anything, sexism in advertising in the US is worse now than it was in the 70s. This woman has made her life studies about sexism in advertising. It's a great watch but I'm sure several of you (men of course, curious the women of the thread have expressed agreement) will accuse her too of being angry and reactionary.

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eld's Avatar
Old (#63)
Quote:
Originally Posted by poopinmymouth View Post
...and when someone suggests this is because of a systematic objectification of women by a largely straight male dominated industry, people disagree. It's really ludicrous, and ignorant, to be honest. It shows that you haven't stopped to think about the way women have been portrayed in games, movies, and comics in any way, other than to stare.
The attraction to the female body is not going to go away anytime soon, and deep inside the reptile brain we'll be objectifying bodies wherever we go, but much like everything else that is bad but essentially a core of what it is to be human, we don't let it get to us. People are people.

We reach equality by objectifying both sexes, just look at the recent bioware games, where we have the ideal man or woman for the player.

Personally I'm fine with that, I enjoy experiencing things, I like murdering people in games, I like seeing attractive people, but I don't find any joy in treating any person any less than human, because I was raised and grew up with those standards.


Isn't this fundamentally an issue that starts at how someone is raised or what experiences he/she gains? Removing any "sexism" in games, movies or ads will not make the reptile brain go away, people were way beyond sexist back in the olde days.

Last edited by eld; 03-11-2012 at 07:29 AM..
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Jackwhat's Avatar
Old (#64)
Quote:
Originally Posted by eld View Post
Isn't this fundamentally an issue that starts at how someone is raised or what experiences he/she gains? Removing any "sexism" in games, movies or ads will not make the reptile brain go away, people were way beyond sexist back in the olde days.
Upon reading that I can't help but think that is true, you rarely say something i dont agree with eld <3
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Zwebbie's Avatar
Old (#65)
Quote:
Originally Posted by poopinmymouth View Post
It's a great watch but I'm sure several of you (men of course, curious the women of the thread have expressed agreement) will accuse her too of being angry and reactionary.
Again, you're immediately assuming the worst of men, Poop. I, for one, thought that was a very good presentation and it's leagues better than the ones you started this thread with (which were also interesting, despite flawed in ways). For one thing, Kilbourne never tries to create a gender dichotomy. Most of her examples, I think, are from women's magazines, so with a female audience in mind.

Feminist Frequency's argument is that men are trying to keep women down. Kilbourne's argument is that the media aren't depicting people responsibly. Those are way different, and it's only the first one I have issues with.

What is a shame is that Jean Kilbourne only shortly mentions the depiction of men in media. It's partially the same problem as with women, namely that the media act irresponsibly and give a false and undesirable sense of normalcy; in this case that males ought to be violent. But I think it's just as big a problem. Recall the video about Lego you posted in the Kara thread; the genders got divided and girls ended up with 'Friendship' and boys with several lines focusing on battling. Which of the two ended up with the less respectful treatment?
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Ganemi's Avatar
Old (#66)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pior View Post
Fearian - that's exactly his point tho! He's doing the naked hero dick joke to show how pointless the whole argument is in the first place. That is to say : of course, female fantasy warriors in chain bikinis don't make any kind of sense! And it would't make any more sense to have Marcus Fenix run around in a jockstrap. The point of pushing the joke further is to show how ridiculous the argument is in the first place ...

I think he is a very clever guy, using sarcastic humour very well !
You know, I use that tactic while sometimes debating hyper conservatives, but I still feel like it's not always the magic bullet. The reason this tactic often works with people who are incredibly conservative is that they do things that are directly opposed to the rules they're trying to impose on everyone else.

My favorite example of hyper conservatives being insane are the bacha bazi boys in the east, and similar boys elswhere:

Rape = punishable by stoning to death.
Not being able to prove you were raped = shameful = punishable by stoning to death. (honor killing)
Gay sex = punishable by stoning to death.
Wealthy elite warlords raping little boys at parties, rather than sleeping with girls to protect their chastity = high social status.

Back to my original point. The problem with using that argumentative tactic against women thinking they should be objectified less in games is that they are, and very, very much so. That said, creating a game where women were all extremely sexually toned down would be incredibly hard to believe, and very distracting. I mean, face it, women want to get laid, too. That's why they don't wear awful clothing, most of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwebbie View Post
I find it problematic that people are trying to turn this into a male vs. female thing, as if every straight man is only trying to dehumanise the other sex. I'll have you know that I, too, feel offended every time a deodorant commercial comes up, because its marketers assume that I'll love something as long as it's associated with breasts. The media act as if we straight men are incredibly shallow and small of focus, and you seem to be believing them.
Hot damn, tits! I need to find some next Friday, to flick with my middle finger. Boioioioing!!!!
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Alberto Rdrgz's Avatar
Old (#67)
Quote:
Originally Posted by eld View Post
The attraction to the female body is not going to go away anytime soon, and deep inside the reptile brain we'll be objectifying bodies wherever we go, but much like everything else that is bad but essentially a core of what it is to be human, we don't let it get to us. People are people.

We reach equality by objectifying both sexes, just look at the recent bioware games, where we have the ideal man or woman for the player.

I think the issue here is that we think we have to REACH a certain point or intellectual agreement. We don't, we just have drop the act, but that's nearly impossible, nowadays.

Sex is the major theme in Ads these days. So just like these ads are making people into shop-aholics, so then, equally they turn people into sex-aholics (both sexes becoming the prey, if you will).

So the issue then becomes more intricate, when it's complicated (both preys blaming each other) rather than simplifying it.

Sex is equal to drugs these days. It's hard to kick, as a desire.
Sex is best when it happens by itself (with you and your partner) not when one asks the other.
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Bigjohn's Avatar
Old (#68)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fearian View Post
Largely speaking, the Half Naked male hero with a ripped body and perfect hair is not in the game to appeal to women. He's in the game for the dudes sake, to see how cool and badass he is. Ripped half naked badasses are ripped half naked badasses, because that's who we want to be when we save the world. Meanwhile most half naked women, are there to look hawt for men.
True, but we think that because we're seeing it from a man's perspective. Couldn't you say the exact same thing if you were a woman? That the chainmail-bikini elf is there to look like a badass woman because that's who you (as a woman) want to be when you save the world, and the half-naked ripped badass man is just eye-candy?

I think the bottom line is, everyone wants to look hot while kicking ass. I don't see why this would be different for women.
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e-freak's Avatar
Old (#69)

point is: men are just as much targeted by "you have to look like this" or "you have to own this". and women will always compare men to advertisment figures just the same. it only becomes a problem if a) you can only see other people in comparison to advertisment or b) you can't get over your self not looking like one of the poster-kids. both is not a systematic failure, it's ones own individual upbringing that will change that - male or female.

Last edited by e-freak; 03-11-2012 at 10:15 AM..
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Jackwhat's Avatar
Old (#70)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigjohn View Post
I think the bottom line is, everyone wants to look hot while kicking ass. I don't see why this would be different for women.
I think there was something said along those lines in one of the gamesindustry mentor things? I cant remember.

But the problem with that line of thought bigjohn is that youre still inside the box with that comment, youre not questioning the definition of "hot". Not that i'm going to argue that being a fat slob is attractive...
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3DFM's Avatar
Old (#71)
She's hot.
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arshlevon's Avatar
Old (#72)
just an observation here, its seems pretty apparent that regardless of how much relevant, true, noteworthy information you have to present about your argument, it is 100% worthless if you say one derogatory statement toward your opposition. i could write a 5 pages of how awesome Gloria Steinem is, but if say i like boobies at the very end it completely invalidates everything i just said. its sad really that personal pride and getting all butt hurt will get in the way of any real conversation about topics such as this ever being had. What happens is one side expressing a concern, this concern makes the other side feel as though they are being accused of being a bad person and now they get defensive, then the name calling starts. i have a 3 year old, its a lot like watching him fight over who plays with the train next.

as a straight man i have to realistically say and admit i have no problem with half naked women being plastered everywhere, and i never will. never. maybe if i have a daughter, but unless its her i probably still wont. I also don't care if men are naked selling something, as an artist i actually find the male form more interesting but that's another topic. it's not the point. the point is i see a bunch of men getting all up in arms about a topic i KNOW they don't give one shit about only because they think they are being made out as the bad guy. look, its not about men doing and feeling the things men do being bad, wrong or unnatural. its about equality , fairness, and respect.

please stop pretending you have anything worth while to say about woman's rights and issues, you don't. you have no say at all at what you personally think they should feel, that's the problem. they don't need to chill out, or just accept it. I didn't choose to be a straight white male, i just was and for me to believe i don't have it better, or have an advantage over every other demographic of human is ignorant.

but no one likes the finger pointed at them, even the privileged. i have to realize that even if i don't care about woman's rights, doesn't mean they are not entitled to them, and that if women were treated fairly it would not change my life at all. all my favorite movies would still be my favorite movies, all my favorite restaurants, it doesn't threaten my life at all. so whats the problem with it? whats the opposition? seems like the most that will change in mens lives if women were treated equally is that there would be less women calling men pigs and assholes, and that seems to be the real problem men are having with any of this.
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paulsvoboda's Avatar
Old (#73)
I went ahead and watched all the videos she's done and, few problems aside, I agree with almost everything she says. The obvious question then to ask is how to do you proceed in bringing about some form of change to the way things are? In one of her videos on BitTorrent/Wikipedia she argues that things are the way they are because men produce most of the content online. Is this because there aren't enough women to produce this content? It seems like a problem which is inherently cyclical/self fulfilling, where women and men are defined into these roles by the media, tradition, religion, etc. which leads us to assuming those roles unfortunately placing a significant amount of men in a place where they are the providers of media, therefore further defining women into these roles.
Basically, my question is, what is the solution for the problem? Is it for men to start writing better roles for women in movies (I sincerely think there are a lot of people trying but according to her still getting it wrong), or for men and women to encourage more women to get involved in media, or something else entirely?
On a side note, I read an article written by a straight man a while back in response to a Huggies ad about being a stay at home dad and how that role is still stereotyped and seen as weak, inferior, etc. by the media and the general public.
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Justin Meisse's Avatar
Old (#74)
I don't see anything in the industry that is restricting diversity in hiring. It's societal mores that have existed that says girls don't go into tech. I see this changing, when I was growing up using a computer was considered weird and nerdy but now a computer & internet connection is considered as essential as water and electricity.
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Ferg's Avatar
Old (#75)
When I went to college (I went to ultra-nerd school: Digipen), the guy/girl ratio was 10/1 at best in my program. The year after I graduated, the freshman male/female ratio was almost 50/50. We may see a shift away from the male gaze in media sooner than we think.
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