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poopinmymouth's Avatar
Old (#1)
Just discovered this youtube channel and it's pretty amazing. I love how well she breaks down these principles without being reactionary or taking them too far. I think every single videogame designer and producer and concept artist needs to be forced to watch these on repeat till we get more diversity in game characters and game themes.






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fearian's Avatar
Old (#2)
Wow, I was ready to be disgusted by the Youtube Comments... but I'm pleasantly surprised!

Great videos, and something all writers really need to be aware of.
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Bigjohn's Avatar
Old (#3)
Just watched the first one, gonna watch the rest later, but just had to comment real quick.

Cause a couple of weeks ago I went on an epic rant to my brother about Forgetting Sarah Marshal saying the exact same things in that video! I've noticed that too. And then sure enough, right after that movie, Yes Man comes on with Jim Carry and (who else?) Zoe Deschanel... with the same basic story.
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aesir's Avatar
Old (#4)
I was listening to the second one "women in fridges" when she talked about how they killed off gwen stacey "FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF GIVING PETER PARKER A MORE COMPLEX AND INTERESTING STORY ARC." Yes. Duh, yes. Why are you arguing against yourself? You just said it made the story better, so why are you bitching? Is it because you think it's more important to have a woman in the story then it is for the story to be good? Because that is lame.

DONE.
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DeadlyFreeze's Avatar
Old (#5)
She's a master of pointing out the obvious, 'hey all these girls are ditzy and dumb' ya you're watching a romantic comedy.

It's like me going 'hey why are all these games filled with space marines with guns?', well your playing a scifi fps, wtf do you think it will be.
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leilei's Avatar
Old (#6)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadlyFreeze View Post
well your playing a scifi fps, wtf do you think it will be.
A bubblebutt

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fine. If you don't want me to do art, then I won't.
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DeadlyFreeze's Avatar
Old (#7)
rule 63, there's always one...
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Bibendum's Avatar
Old (#8)
Watched all of them, her points are well explained and definitely very relevant to the gaming industry.

Her brief rant (complaint?) at the end of the first video about men crediting women as important inspirations for their lives/work making her want to scream and puke at the same time, then trying to tie it back to the trope seemed like a huge logical leap and really out of place.

I also had to roll my eyes at criticizing straw feminist characters and then using Rush Limbaugh as damning evidence in the same video, who is himself a walking caricature of male chauvanism and modern sexism/racism. Attacking a strawman with another strawman... There was more than enough actually substantial evidence in the video to make the point without resorting to that..

Quote:
I was listening to the second one "women in fridges" when she talked about how they killed off gwen stacey "FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF GIVING PETER PARKER A MORE COMPLEX AND INTERESTING STORY ARC." Yes. Duh, yes. Why are you arguing against yourself? You just said it made the story better, so why are you bitching? Is it because you think it's more important to have a woman in the story then it is for the story to be good? Because that is lame.

DONE.
You pretty much missed the point, yes the hope (not necessarily an indicator that it actually works) of the plot device is that it's going to make the story more interesting, but the point is about how female characters are portrayed in the media we consume that help further stereotypes about them. The WIR trope uses a violent/traumatic scenario of a supporting female character for basically no other reason than to leverage the main male characters motivation to do something and is almost always significantly more brutally illustrated than their male counterparts, intended to make a bigger impact by portraying them as helpless victims and not just "someone who lost a close fight" as is typically the case when a male hero goes through a similar experience. It is, as should have been obvious by the titles of the video, a gender role trope.
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poopinmymouth's Avatar
Old (#9)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bibendum View Post

I also had to roll my eyes at criticizing straw feminist characters and then using Rush Limbaugh as damning evidence in the same video, who is himself a walking caricature of male chauvanism and modern sexism/racism. Attacking a strawman with another strawman... There was more than enough actually substantial evidence in the video to make the point without resorting to that..
How is Rush Limbaugh a strawman? He might be to you, but he has quite a few listeners, and they agree with what he says. You're comparing made up characters, designed to be silly to make a point, and an actual person who is taken seriously by his target audience. I don't really think they are the same.

Even if she used a made up character that resembled Limbaugh's appearance and rhetoric, it's still not comparable since there are actually a frequent occurrence of men just as ugly and sexist as he is in real life. Whereas there are very few "real life" straw feminists as written into cartoons/tv/comics.
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poopinmymouth's Avatar
Old (#10)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bibendum View Post

Her brief rant (complaint?) at the end of the first video about men crediting women as important inspirations for their lives/work making her want to scream and puke at the same time, then trying to tie it back to the trope seemed like a huge logical leap and really out of place.
Had to watch that again to see what you mean. I agree it wasn't tied in so fully, but I like that she brings in personal anecdotes sometimes. It's hard because we are so used to either full on reportage style information with no personal injections OR personal conversations that are not meant as authoritative. She is pretty clearly trying to straddle these two fences, being both lecturer and confidant. I like it, but it has the opportunity to be unclear.

On the point about the rant about scream/puke, I disagree with her point that famous male creators should never mention their muse, but I do think it gave her a platform to make the point that muse is not the only way a woman can function, that they are creators in their own right very frequently, just not in TV/comic/videogame/movie depictions. It's most likely a pet peeve of hers, but it isn't something objective like some of the other points she brings up, so I see what you mean in this criticism.
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Jackwhat's Avatar
Old (#11)
Wonder how long it will be until people just group themselves as "people" or "human".

I feel like this is somewhat relevent but perhaps i'm naive as i myself am not a member of a minority but at the same time i dont really distinguish between anything... people are people.

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paulsvoboda's Avatar
Old (#12)
I've watched the first two and while they are extremely well done, her thoughts and arguments are laid out clearly and concisely, I can't help but think in certain cases she is stretching her points too far which consequently diminish their effect.

The short rant about wanting to puke every time someone mentioned a female as their source of inspiration is one. Most of the people who make this claim are usually married/in a serious relationship, making it safe to assume that their spouse is their closest friend, someone who they share every day with, and someone who knows them so well that they can support them in their hardest moments, and vice versa, very easily making them the source of inspiration to keep pushing through.
I understand that she is trying to push the point that women are creative and are people who also put forth media, but it seems, while not fully wrong, not entirely fair either, to not mention that they may very well say that the man in their life has been their inspiration.

Regarding the WIR argument, I'm not going to argue on behalf of comics because I have little knowledge in that area, but yes, women are often used as plot points, yet so are men. In the case of Lost, I'd argue that Boone was used in pretty much the same way as Libby and Shannon, in order to advance Locke's case, as was Charlie to some extent, and to not mention this seems to indicate that she may tend to see what she wants to see in order to make a better, but perhaps not completely legitimate, argument.

The reality of media is that we often need these tropes in order to advance story in an interesting way. Boone's death for one led to a fascinating journey for Locke and Jack, and it advanced both their characters in very interesting ways, much like how Shannon's death advanced the tension between the Losties.
I won't speak to Heroes as I haven't watched that show past season 1.

I understand that Women are often used in these tropes more than men, but any romantic comedy where the female is cast as the lead will cast the man as the MPDG instead.

Again, she makes some great points and they are things that we need to think about, but it sometimes seems as though she is just calling out tropes and then casting them as anti-feminist.

Thanks for posting these.

Last edited by paulsvoboda; 03-09-2012 at 11:22 PM..
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PhattyEwok's Avatar
Old (#13)
To add more to the WiR discussion. What about the most pointless death of all the male heroes? Jason Tod being beat to death by Joker with a tire iron. They killed Batman's only sidekick to make the story-line more interesting and it involved a male victim.

Note I realize this is probably more of an exception to the rule.
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pseudoBug's Avatar
Old (#14)
"women are not here for men's anything".

While I'm sure she has some relevant points, she comes across as someone with an ax to grind.

She comes across as the kind of person who'd get mad if another girl told here she enjoyed being someone's muse. Or liked cooking. *gasp* For a GUY!!!

Lots of women enjoy being there in a supportive and creatively inspiring capacity, as many men do for women. She suggests that one is mutually exclusive of the other.

She comes across like a shock journalist. "OMG WOMEN ARE PEOPLE AND NO ONE KNOWS IT". "Don't you dare use us as inspiration".

Feminist Frequency and "Bitch Media". Huh.
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ErichWK's Avatar
Old (#15)
What i wanna know is why there are rarely any Blonde heroes.
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Bibendum's Avatar
Old (#16)
Quote:
How is Rush Limbaugh a strawman? He might be to you, but he has quite a few listeners, and they agree with what he says. You're comparing made up characters, designed to be silly to make a point, and an actual person who is taken seriously by his target audience. I don't really think they are the same.

Even if she used a made up character that resembled Limbaugh's appearance and rhetoric, it's still not comparable since there are actually a frequent occurrence of men just as ugly and sexist as he is in real life. Whereas there are very few "real life" straw feminists as written into cartoons/tv/comics.
You're right its not the same thing. My problem is that she described Rush Limbaugh (and Glenn Beck) as being part of the conservative mainstream which is pretty big misrepresentation to me considering his listenership is shrinking and his supposed "millions" of listeners has always been an inflated number that came from his own show that no one could verify. Cenk from TYT has gone as far as offering him $10k if he could prove he was getting the 20 million listeners a day he claims he is, we'll see how that pans out.

The truth is no one has any idea how influencial Rush is, everyone assumes he is important because everyone else is saying how still important he is, and no one can prove he isn't. But he's much more like Paris Hilton, the only reason anyone is even aware of his continued existence is because larger news organizations pick up on his shit and run "LOL RUSH IS AT IT AGAIN" stories where they can collect pundits to discuss his antics. Like everybody else, politicians don't know how valuable his audience is so they just play it safe and keep their distance while trying to not make an enemy of him.

She also mentioned Glenn Beck, in 2010 Glenn Becks viewership fell 50%, this year major radio stations began dropping his program (along with Sean Hannity's) and political talk radio in general, which is mostly conservative at this point, is in massive decline. The median age of their listeners is 52-63 and going up every year which would imply they aren't getting any new listeners. They're literally going extinct.

I know a lot of conservatives, I don't know a single person who aligns themselves with Rush Limbaugh's views, much less his views on women. I'm sure they must exist somewhere, at least enough that his popularity justifies him still having a show (although maybe that's because he still has 4 years on his contract) but to say their views are being infused into the mainstream is a big stretch. If anything the evidence seems to indicate that the mainstream has flat out rejected their views which is why in a few years no one will even remember who Glenn Beck is and hopefully whenever newscasters and politicians stop pretending like Rush matters, he'll be in the same boat.
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dfacto's Avatar
Old (#17)
Very interesting series, but completely destructive to film and games. Tropes are what you use when you don't have the time for a 3 hour exposition and just need the viewer to understand something at a glance. Take tropes away and you'll be left with longwinded art films about boring people looking at each other meaningfully. I watch movies for space marines, hot chicks, aliens, dinosaurs, and other cliche stuff. I get my "boring everyday life quota" fulfilled just fine throughout the week.

Good writing, not usage of cliches, is the most important factor which needs to be addressed.
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Es läuft mir aus den Ohren, Herz und Nieren sind Motoren

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Zwebbie's Avatar
Old (#18)
I don't know how reasonable it is to ask men to write true female characters. When they try, it's not an uncommon complaint that they fail at it and just don't grasp the female psyche. Rather, isn't the problem that so few women are creating our media?

Also, a problem that I have with these gendrist takes on media is that bad tropes can easily be bent either way. The Evil Demon Seductress and Mystical Pregnancy here are an example. In EDS, the female sexuality is predatory and men will only get hurt by it, in MP the male sexuality is predatory and females will only get hurt by it, and yet these two opposites are both negative only towards women? You could just as easily say that the former projects men as thinking only with their reproductive organ and the second associates impregnating a woman with horrific machine tools that destroy a woman. And voila, it's the men who get the short end of the stick. Both of those are a wrong way to look at it. These tropes are just stupid for being stupid, not so much for being sexist, IMHO. And that's a bit of a problem with such gendrist views, they often don't consider the possibility of something just being bad instead of sexist.

P.S. - My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic has to be the most sexist thing on air, men in it are either evil, twats or dimwitted.

P.P.S. - An error in Mystical Pregnancy, the Immaculate Conception is not the Virginal Conception, it is Mary being born without original sin. Which doesn't strike me as particularly sexist. At all.
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Anuxinamoon's Avatar
Old (#19)
I wasn't going to watch all of them, but after watching the first one I watched the rest.

Many of the examples she cited I have had nagging problems with in the past when I observed them, but didn't know how to lump those problems into something substantial like these 'trope names.'

Thanks for sharing.
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almighty_gir's Avatar
Old (#20)
so what i'm getting from all this, is that hazardous should be ashamed of himself?
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Bibendum's Avatar
Old (#21)
Quote:
Originally Posted by almighty_gir View Post
so what i'm getting from all this, is that hazardous should be ashamed of himself?
Why's that?
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MadnessImport's Avatar
Old (#22)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bibendum View Post
Why's that?
Most of his Work = Female Characters

Inspired by Women ♥
/Bump
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poopinmymouth's Avatar
Old (#23)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfacto View Post
Very interesting series, but completely destructive to film and games. Tropes are what you use when you don't have the time for a 3 hour exposition and just need the viewer to understand something at a glance. Take tropes away and you'll be left with longwinded art films about boring people looking at each other meaningfully. I watch movies for space marines, hot chicks, aliens, dinosaurs, and other cliche stuff. I get my "boring everyday life quota" fulfilled just fine throughout the week.

Good writing, not usage of cliches, is the most important factor which needs to be addressed.
As an artist I cannot disagree more strongly. Using existing stereotypes as a shortcut is incredibly lazy and the reason why we have so many same-y games out. If an artist has any pride whatsoever they should constantly be on the lookout for how to stretch boundaries or communicate in new ways.

I just watched a French movie, Point Blank. It's sort of like Die Hard, in that it's a reluctant hero movie. It's not amazing, but it's pretty good. The reason I bring it up is that it avoids so many shitty cliches just be being made by French people. So many situations surprised me because they set them up in different ways than hollywood does. They were still very easy to understand, I didn't feel like it was some art-house flick, but it made it incredibly fresh. If the same movie had been made by hollywood it would have been so forgettable I wouldn't even remember the name.

Also I reject the idea that games are what they are because of space marines and hot chicks and other cliches. Games are first and foremost the feedback loops. Collecting the items, fulfilling the task, racing the clock, etc. This sexist trope is merely the veneer on top, and is in no way the definitive essence of what a game is. No one is even arguing to do away with it entirely, just a slight bit of nuance or variety in theme would be nice.
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Ace-Angel's Avatar
Old (#24)
Ugh, seriously, this is starting to thick me off.

Can't we ever a FEMALE journalist/blogger/etc who can say what's need to be said without grinding her Axe about something? Extra Credits pretty much makes well rounded arguments without the need to grind an Axe about anything, is it that hard?

I simply don't have time to sit down and hear rants anymore, we get it, everyone's an angry smuck, I'm angry, she's angry, children are angry, animals are angry, we have angry food, we have angry showers and we have angry sex.

Frankly, this entire sub-culture of "Hey, look at me, I can make an argument, but for the sake of 'views' I will throw in a couple of angry rants" is getting tired, you can make the perfect argument all you want, and be flawless in your jabs, but it takes that single "Grrr" moment to ruin everything because it shows 'your opinion', not an outside researched structure, but one where you're trying to push a couple of ideas, as well to get noticed more.

Also, the way she takes real people and claims they 'represent' a majority of us real-life people vs. a couple of cartoon characters is extremely cheap, and biased, especially considering it's limiting to female vs. male idealization. I can make the same exact argument by putting up Marcus Fenix next to a fat guy, next to a female alien character, while sourcing the female character from 2010 and male characters from Flash Gordon, let's see how fair that is.

Also, fun-fact, how come she's avoiding talking about products which had females be in the main part of the dev team, even leads, when these products at the end of the day were sexist to the n'th degree? Instead, she finds time to complain about Lego's.

This is why we can't have nice things, because all we get are complaints, not solutions or creative discussions.
There's a very good chance that I experienced MORE problems, then all the internet put together in the area of 3D. Talk about being original for once...
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eld's Avatar
Old (#25)


I think the mystical pregnancy got to me the most,

Something that is so (and this will grind someones axe), definingly female and important to humanity, it is something that everyone can connect to, and even used in very creative ways (see alien).

And if you are not able to get pregnant that does not make you less female, but females should still have the right to be proud of that genetic feature as much as males probably worship their penis on an altar, and pregnancy will still be a part of stories in different weird ways due to how EVERYONE has a connection to pregnancy in one way or another.

Many series don't drive the lasting effects on pregnancy due to being "one episode at a time" in structure and personally that offends me even more,
but with others like the x-files, she failed to see that the series actually made that whole thing one of the main plotlines in a way that female viewers would idenfity themselves with or understand even further.



I need to start a video blog!!

Last edited by eld; 03-10-2012 at 08:19 AM..
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