My assumtion was that if your work was better than the guy with the degree you would get picked. How true is this? And do you see degrees being more nessisary in this feild in the future?
Portfolio > Degree, always when the job relates to artistic endeavors.
I don't see them being any more necessary in the future. I do see programs improving as the focus shifts from milking students of their money to producing quality grads who actually have skills, traditional and technical. Which means tougher screening and tougher graduation requirements. Even then that just means the student might have a better chance at producing a better portfolio than they would have on their own.
If you go to school or practice on your own, in the end it is still all about the portfolio.
Right now it seems like schools focus on teaching anyone the technical side of the industry, which any artist can do on their own by sitting down with the help files, online tutorials DVDs, books or a class or two. Most studios will need to teach the artist their particular pipeline anyway so they are pretty forgiving on the technical knowledge.
What a studio can't really afford to take a risk on is taking a crappy artist who knows the technical and hope they can improve artistically. It could take years for them to improve and they might not be motivated or able to do it.
So if schools only teach the technical and a degree = "I know Maya, kinda" then it says very little about the persons ability to do the job.
From what I know, degrees do not matter as much as skill does.. Since a degree is no guarantee that the person will produce the desired content, skill obviously is.
Degrees prove that the applicant has the ability to bite through a situation and finish it, but it stands in no way as proof of skill or whatever imo.
In the future i dont think much will change.. A kick ass portfolio is always stronger and better than a shiny piece of paper.
However, for management/lead positions a degree would make sense to be a plus.
edit: plus what eld said, a degree can be very helpful for acquiring a working visa
Ive heard of studios degree vs non degree employees are 90% - 10% could it be that people cant realy exell in game art without some sort of tutoring? ive theorize I would have quit without person to person help, even google fails me in some cases (hurah polycount university!)
Ive heard of studios degree vs non degree employees are 90% - 10%
I think your numbers are off and you're probably pulling them out of your ass. I'd like to see the study where those numbers relate to the art dept...
If you're looking at the company as a whole then yes you want your accountant to have had some training in tax code and laws, most of the time they need some kind of government certification which happens at the end of school.
You want your HR person to know their stuff about time off, benefits and negotiating with insurance companies, as well as making sure employees don't murder and rape each other then a degree and certification is probably a good indicator.
You want your programers to know their technical stuff.
You might want your managers to have some kind of business management training a degree in the right thing could point to those skills.
Schools are really good at teaching those things to just about anyone, its easy to test and governments normally have tests and certifications people have to go through to even apply for those jobs. Not so true with art, you just need to be a good artist.
If you're talking about the art department, generally speaking in my experience, it doesn't take a degree to fling poo, you just need a lot of practice at slinging it.
A degree only means you stuck around art/3d art for a few years and met the deadlines given to you. Depending on the school, your awareness and your work ethic - this could lead to a good portfolio. In most cases, it doesn't.
There are people who can become good artists all on their own, without any formal training. Conversely, some people find it impossible or just very difficult to get anything done without some driving force behind them.
Most of the people I have worked with went to art school for 3d or traditional, but I have encountered a quite a few self taught people like myself. A degree doesnt mean anything but it will help you get work in other countries.
I cant work in the states until I have 12 years work experience because in the goverments eyes there....3 years work experience = 1 year of schooling..... when in the real world its 3-6 months on the job = way more than school will ever teach you haha.
however, not having a degree has never held me back here in vancouver, I have worked at most of the studios in town and I have never been asked about it or anything other than a casual question by fellow co-workers. Portfolio is king.
i dunn think a degree hurts.... if anything it hurts your wallet as you try to pay outstanding munny to greedy people. But since that is not the point, you could see it, and i know here at work we consider that. To stay through a whole degree and have a good GPA or honors or what not, shows commitment and how much effort you put into your work.
I do agree that portfolio trumps everything. You have a good portfolio you will most likely get in. Unless you know people in there that can be of leverage.
I dont believe degrees hold the same weight when it comes to working out of country. But in terms of diplomas vs degrees within canada, it all depends on the job. degrees mean shit all for certain jobs. and certain jobs you cant even get degrees for it, since for us, diplomas tend to be for the more hands on jobs. Yes, you can get diplomas for business and stuff, and those dont hold as much weight as a degree even in the country. But, alot of people will go to university, get their degree, then go back and get their diploma from a college because companies want hands on experience, which you dont get from university.
I know some companies in the area (toronto) are going to the local schools to hire. Ubisoft, for instance, has been hiring juniors from the local colleges. And Ive heard alot of companies are starting to want some form of schooling. Yes, if your portfolio is insanely good, you`ll get a job either way. But when it comes to juniors, having that piece of paper is a definite advantage.
Don't think of it as "If my portfolio is better than someone with the paper, will they get it over me" or "if mine is worse, but i have the paper, will i get it?". Think of it as "if our portfolios are the same quality, but i have a paper and they dont, will I get it over them" And to that, the answer is yes.
If someones portfolio is miles ahead of the other guys, that piece of paper means shit all. But if they are pretty similar, Id say the paper will always win. Unless the guy/gal fucks their interview.
edit: Oh, also, most job postings say you need so many years experience. From what I've heard, companies are starting to count schooling as relevant experience. It may not be 1:1 in terms of studio experience. But its still experience dealing with deadlines and what not
I cant work in the states until I have 12 years work experience because in the goverments eyes there....3 years work experience = 1 year of schooling..... when in the real world its 3-6 months on the job = way more than school will ever teach you haha.
That's not entirely true. There are other visas than the H1B visa which could help you work in the states; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_visa
I know of people who had about 4 years of experience and got one of these. You will need a big company with some good lawyers backing you up of course.
Not to pull away from the original topic, but how does Canada look at Diploma's VS Degree's?
Does it have the same value for working out of country?
Portolio, experience, who-you-know over piece of paper.
I know a guy who was a qa contractor. Went from big studio to no-name studio where he started as qa lead. Showed he knows UDK and was able to transition as a designer. If he wants to go back to a big studio he now has something more impressive than just a diploma/degree/certificate.
But if you want to work stateside it'll help your application a lot. You don't even have to go to an elite school like Sheridan or even take fine arts. Couple of former co-studio workers now work at Blizzard and Blur (non game but they do cool game cinematics amongst other things). And if you look at their non-studio portfolio it was just so-so. But the fact that they have sr. level experience and they grad from something like U of Saskatchewan in engineering, it was relatively easy for them to move stateside.
If you dare to live the remote freelance life...doesn't matter if you only have a high school experience as long as you can prove you can do the job.
Whilst I don't disagree that a degree is not particularly important as simply a document, I still think studios do look at them favourably. I would definitely be interested in seeing a poll here for every person who got their first industry job within the last two years and whether they had a degree or not. I can almost guarantee that the majority will have degrees.
Now, that obviously doesn't tell us a great deal but i would still like to see the results.
Ive heard of studios degree vs non degree employees are 90% - 10% could it be that people cant realy exell in game art without some sort of tutoring? ive theorize I would have quit without person to person help, even google fails me in some cases (hurah polycount university!)
All that indicates is that the people who excel the most in art are more likely to be the ones who get degrees. Not that the degree is worth anything, or that people who get the degrees turn out to be better artists, or that employers even want or care about them.
You should just ask the people here who are actually in hiring positions how much degrees factor into their decision making.
Everybody says "a degree looks nice on a resume" Well of course it does. All education does. That doesn't mean it actually has any influence in their decesion making.
i got into the industry without a degree. In any interview with people I've never heard anyone ask an applicant.. where did you go to school.. what degree do you have. The work you produce is your degree. Shitty skills and a masters isn't going to do a damn thing except let you teach at some half ass art school.
90% of the time people who claim that studios hold a degree favorably.. are students trying to justify why they're in college
I dont do it to try and justify why i went or to rationalize debt. Im happy I went. I have a job now, and no, I dont believe it had anything to do with having my paper. But Im still glad I went. It helped me learn the programs, and gave me practice with deadlines. Even if it NEVER officially helps me get a job, where they say, you need a degree, or im glad you have one, I will still be happy I went.
And the reason I say I've heard studios like them is because Ive been told by HR people that they like people to have them. Especially juniors.
About half of the artists at Naughty Dog went to an Art Institute :O but that had absolutely nothing to doing with them getting hired. All that matters here is having some industry experience and how well you do on the art test you are given. Your portfolio dosnt even really matter that much.
. But if they are pretty similar, Id say the paper will always win. Unless the guy/gal fucks their interview.
very true, dont forget the importance of proper social skills, that will usually have a big impact on weather you are hired or not. try to be easygoing and not awkward...although our industry is full of people like that. Getting away from the computer and going out and doing things is just as important as a rockin portfolio.
I would say no, a degree is not required or even really checked from what I have heard. I am not in the industry yet but what I have learned since I have joined polycount has had a much greater impact than anything I learned in school. At my school at least there "program" has only one modeling class. Nothing going over texturing or color theory at all. Sad thing is the students think this is fine. Not to count my school does not have a teacher with industry experence, hell one flat out told us she does not play games.
Just yesterday one of the students that graduates in a few months tried to import a 2 million polygon model into UDK and could not understand why it was crashing. Degree does not make the student, portfolio.
Every time this question pops up it elicits a lot of subjective opinion. There are no factual studies to support any of the claims. What gets you a job is more complex that the reductio ad absurdum claim reel > degree. What might be the reality for one person employed by one company does not imply that it is true for the majority of cases. There are many factors in the hiring process (demonstrable artistic talent is obviously important for game art positions).
How many game artists (not just Polycount members) have a degree and were hired because their college studies enabled them to create a good portfolio? Some people want to get a formal education. Lets ask how many programmers in the game industry are self-taught? You are not going to get a job programming physics if you do not have a degree that had you sweating your butt off learning programming, mathematics, and physics. Fortunately there are a lot of tutorials and online help for learning the artistic side and the self-taught path is a possibility for a disciplined, but dedicated person. In my experience people that are self-taught tend to be weaker in certain areas (such as anatomy, spelling, and writing) than those that are classically educated. I know many self-taught people that eventually took some college courses to help them develop other skills necessary to get promoted.
An interesting statistic that I would like to see is: how many students that completed at least one semester in a game art related degree are working in the game industry compared to how many self-starters that studied regularly for at least five months are working in the game industry? What is the percentage of success (landed a game art job) for each group?
The quality of education varies greatly from college to college. If you take the college route do not spend more than $25,000 for a four-year degree. Do not apply for loans until you have researched the school thoroughly. Beware non-regionally accredited (especially for-profit) schools. Attend a community college for a year or two and then transfer to a four-year. Do more than what is expected of you in the classroom. Get feedback from experienced people. Get some good game pipeline DVDs or tutorials. Work your ass off, decide what you want to do, focus and develop a portfolio that will get you that position. Get advice, learn to take criticism, and keep practicing. Remember the old joke about a lost tourist walking down the sidewalk in New York City. He asks a cabby how do I get to Carnegie Hall? The cabby replies practice, lots of practice.
My assumtion was that if your work was better than the guy with the degree you would get picked. How true is this? And do you see degrees being more nessisary in this feild in the future?
I keep hearing from HR and mgmt people that, if they have the choice, they prefer degrees.
Note 1: this comes from suits, not artists
Note 2: this doesn't mean the degree is more important than the folio. Folio/art test/artistic ability is still #1 criteria, followed by experience, and the impression the person leaves. But if you have two equal candidates in the hiring pipeline and one has a degree, then that one will get HR's +1.
Interesting, both the opinions here and the recent poll. The military will pay for college over here in MO, so I was wondering if I should jump at the opportunity. However, that would take away from my main focus of my 6 year enlistment of becoming competitive in my free time and also math terrifys me.
Replies
I don't see them being any more necessary in the future. I do see programs improving as the focus shifts from milking students of their money to producing quality grads who actually have skills, traditional and technical. Which means tougher screening and tougher graduation requirements. Even then that just means the student might have a better chance at producing a better portfolio than they would have on their own.
If you go to school or practice on your own, in the end it is still all about the portfolio.
Right now it seems like schools focus on teaching anyone the technical side of the industry, which any artist can do on their own by sitting down with the help files, online tutorials DVDs, books or a class or two. Most studios will need to teach the artist their particular pipeline anyway so they are pretty forgiving on the technical knowledge.
What a studio can't really afford to take a risk on is taking a crappy artist who knows the technical and hope they can improve artistically. It could take years for them to improve and they might not be motivated or able to do it.
So if schools only teach the technical and a degree = "I know Maya, kinda" then it says very little about the persons ability to do the job.
Degrees prove that the applicant has the ability to bite through a situation and finish it, but it stands in no way as proof of skill or whatever imo.
In the future i dont think much will change.. A kick ass portfolio is always stronger and better than a shiny piece of paper.
However, for management/lead positions a degree would make sense to be a plus.
edit: plus what eld said, a degree can be very helpful for acquiring a working visa
If you're looking at the company as a whole then yes you want your accountant to have had some training in tax code and laws, most of the time they need some kind of government certification which happens at the end of school.
You want your HR person to know their stuff about time off, benefits and negotiating with insurance companies, as well as making sure employees don't murder and rape each other then a degree and certification is probably a good indicator.
You want your programers to know their technical stuff.
You might want your managers to have some kind of business management training a degree in the right thing could point to those skills.
Schools are really good at teaching those things to just about anyone, its easy to test and governments normally have tests and certifications people have to go through to even apply for those jobs. Not so true with art, you just need to be a good artist.
If you're talking about the art department, generally speaking in my experience, it doesn't take a degree to fling poo, you just need a lot of practice at slinging it.
A degree only means you stuck around art/3d art for a few years and met the deadlines given to you. Depending on the school, your awareness and your work ethic - this could lead to a good portfolio. In most cases, it doesn't.
There are people who can become good artists all on their own, without any formal training. Conversely, some people find it impossible or just very difficult to get anything done without some driving force behind them.
I cant work in the states until I have 12 years work experience because in the goverments eyes there....3 years work experience = 1 year of schooling..... when in the real world its 3-6 months on the job = way more than school will ever teach you haha.
however, not having a degree has never held me back here in vancouver, I have worked at most of the studios in town and I have never been asked about it or anything other than a casual question by fellow co-workers. Portfolio is king.
Does it have the same value for working out of country?
I do agree that portfolio trumps everything. You have a good portfolio you will most likely get in. Unless you know people in there that can be of leverage.
I know some companies in the area (toronto) are going to the local schools to hire. Ubisoft, for instance, has been hiring juniors from the local colleges. And Ive heard alot of companies are starting to want some form of schooling. Yes, if your portfolio is insanely good, you`ll get a job either way. But when it comes to juniors, having that piece of paper is a definite advantage.
Don't think of it as "If my portfolio is better than someone with the paper, will they get it over me" or "if mine is worse, but i have the paper, will i get it?". Think of it as "if our portfolios are the same quality, but i have a paper and they dont, will I get it over them" And to that, the answer is yes.
If someones portfolio is miles ahead of the other guys, that piece of paper means shit all. But if they are pretty similar, Id say the paper will always win. Unless the guy/gal fucks their interview.
edit: Oh, also, most job postings say you need so many years experience. From what I've heard, companies are starting to count schooling as relevant experience. It may not be 1:1 in terms of studio experience. But its still experience dealing with deadlines and what not
That's not entirely true. There are other visas than the H1B visa which could help you work in the states;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_visa
I know of people who had about 4 years of experience and got one of these. You will need a big company with some good lawyers backing you up of course.
Portolio, experience, who-you-know over piece of paper.
I know a guy who was a qa contractor. Went from big studio to no-name studio where he started as qa lead. Showed he knows UDK and was able to transition as a designer. If he wants to go back to a big studio he now has something more impressive than just a diploma/degree/certificate.
But if you want to work stateside it'll help your application a lot. You don't even have to go to an elite school like Sheridan or even take fine arts. Couple of former co-studio workers now work at Blizzard and Blur (non game but they do cool game cinematics amongst other things). And if you look at their non-studio portfolio it was just so-so. But the fact that they have sr. level experience and they grad from something like U of Saskatchewan in engineering, it was relatively easy for them to move stateside.
If you dare to live the remote freelance life...doesn't matter if you only have a high school experience as long as you can prove you can do the job.
Now, that obviously doesn't tell us a great deal but i would still like to see the results.
EDIT: Poll posted.
You should just ask the people here who are actually in hiring positions how much degrees factor into their decision making.
Everybody says "a degree looks nice on a resume" Well of course it does. All education does. That doesn't mean it actually has any influence in their decesion making.
90% of the time people who claim that studios hold a degree favorably.. are students trying to justify why they're in college
And the reason I say I've heard studios like them is because Ive been told by HR people that they like people to have them. Especially juniors.
very true, dont forget the importance of proper social skills, that will usually have a big impact on weather you are hired or not. try to be easygoing and not awkward...although our industry is full of people like that. Getting away from the computer and going out and doing things is just as important as a rockin portfolio.
Just yesterday one of the students that graduates in a few months tried to import a 2 million polygon model into UDK and could not understand why it was crashing. Degree does not make the student, portfolio.
How many game artists (not just Polycount members) have a degree and were hired because their college studies enabled them to create a good portfolio? Some people want to get a formal education. Lets ask how many programmers in the game industry are self-taught? You are not going to get a job programming physics if you do not have a degree that had you sweating your butt off learning programming, mathematics, and physics. Fortunately there are a lot of tutorials and online help for learning the artistic side and the self-taught path is a possibility for a disciplined, but dedicated person. In my experience people that are self-taught tend to be weaker in certain areas (such as anatomy, spelling, and writing) than those that are classically educated. I know many self-taught people that eventually took some college courses to help them develop other skills necessary to get promoted.
An interesting statistic that I would like to see is: how many students that completed at least one semester in a game art related degree are working in the game industry compared to how many self-starters that studied regularly for at least five months are working in the game industry? What is the percentage of success (landed a game art job) for each group?
The quality of education varies greatly from college to college. If you take the college route do not spend more than $25,000 for a four-year degree. Do not apply for loans until you have researched the school thoroughly. Beware non-regionally accredited (especially for-profit) schools. Attend a community college for a year or two and then transfer to a four-year. Do more than what is expected of you in the classroom. Get feedback from experienced people. Get some good game pipeline DVDs or tutorials. Work your ass off, decide what you want to do, focus and develop a portfolio that will get you that position. Get advice, learn to take criticism, and keep practicing. Remember the old joke about a lost tourist walking down the sidewalk in New York City. He asks a cabby how do I get to Carnegie Hall? The cabby replies practice, lots of practice.
I keep hearing from HR and mgmt people that, if they have the choice, they prefer degrees.
Note 1: this comes from suits, not artists
Note 2: this doesn't mean the degree is more important than the folio. Folio/art test/artistic ability is still #1 criteria, followed by experience, and the impression the person leaves. But if you have two equal candidates in the hiring pipeline and one has a degree, then that one will get HR's +1.