I saw something today that made me livid. I found a job advert for a junior artist role. After reading all the requirements and feeling pretty confident I was about to apply when I saw that they wanted a minimum of 2 years work experience in a media company.

This got me thinking. Does the UK industry have any respect for the games industry education at all? Granted it is pretty bad but surely a degree must count for something? This requirement in the role in question was almost certainly put there to block %90 of graduates from applying for the role and to be honest I find that absolutely disgusting.

My university was god awful, by the end of it most of the guys who passed still didn't know the very basics, and I mean basic. A few guys didn't even know how to apply a texture (no joke, and this was THIRD YEAR). I am insulted by this because I worked really hard for my degree and I think I came out of uni with some decent skills under my belt and all I need to do now i theory is keep working on portfolio. Whats pissed me off is that I went to uni for 3 years for absolutely nothing seeing as uni taught me nothing and my degree is worthless as the industry actively avoid graduates.

At the risk of sounding like a complete child but how is this fair at all? How can the industry not step in and tell the educational authorities that they are doing an abysmal job and how can the educational bodies fail to notice that over %90 of their graduates in this area don't go anywhere in the industry?

I normally ignore all that crap about the 'forgotten generation' as tbh the last generation didn't have it perfect and neither did the ones before that but don't you think there is a good amount of blame to be leveled at both the industry and at the universities too that keep encouraging people into these dead end courses when they know for a fact that job prospects at the end are very bad and made worse by the fact that they don't prepare them properly for it in the first place.

Also while I am all fired up why is the text entry box writing in green? Was it always this way? I cant tell but it is suddenly doing my head in as I'm finding it hard to read lol.

Honestly, it should be based on your portfolio and ability first and foremost. Just because you have a degree doesn't mean you should be entitled to any type of job. And the two years minimum thing doesn't mean much if you have a good portfolio. That's to dissuade those that have no business applying anyways.

nobody cares about games degrees.. unless you need a visa!

it's because 3d education is so poor that this industry has no respect for degrees. it's sad to hear, but your university story is a common one, and it's a situation that will not get better until the higher ups stop scamming students with insane tuition fees and start hiring teachers that have actually worked in the games industry recently.

but yeah, portfolio is everything, and yours (http://www.artistinabox.co.uk/) needs some work.

First of all, just apply for the position anyway...

Secondly why SHOULD a degree be worth anything in any art field?

Originally Posted by Artist_in_a_box

Whats pissed me off is that I went to uni for 3 years for absolutely nothing seeing as uni taught me nothing and my degree is worthless as the industry actively avoid graduates.

The industry does not actively avoid graduates. At least half of the people I know in the industry have some kind of university level education. Everything from trained architects to people with degrees in English literature.

So secondary education is not useless. But it's not the thing that will determine if you get a job. Unsurprisingly this is the same for most art related fields.

95% of 3d "degrees" are a joke. You just need a pulse and $100k to drop on them. They are a complete waste of money.

A game company looking at you as an applicant will put 90% of their focus on your portfolio. If you have 2 people with similar portfolio's and performed the same on an art test then having a degree will help.

If you want to get a degree, go to a accredited university / college and major in something useful like computer science. If you want to be an artist, get a traditional art background from a real school. If you are not majoring in something engineering related IMO you are throwing your money away going to college now a days.

no i'm not saying my degree should entitle me to a job. I get why they don't want people who aren't any good. What annoys me is that when i was younger people told you to go to uni and promised you it would be worth something. Even the industry people i spoke to told me it was worth something, even if just to get someone to view the portfolio. Don't just lump me with the guys who think a degree entitles them anything. I am more frustrated that I was encouraged to get this degree and wasted good money and time getting it and realize how worthless it really is now i have left. I wish I had just stayed home and worked on portfolio as then at least I would be good in a specific area instead of ok in many.

I will give the example of me when I was looking into where I wanted to go to school. I wanted to go to school for 3d but I quickly realized that you can teach yourself everything you learn in these 3d schools with 1k in DVD training instead of dropping 120k+ on a silly education. The only downside of this is you might not make as many connection.

I worked my ass off in community college and transferred to UCSD (top 5 public school in the country) and majored in programming in the arts. I worked on my portfolio while I was there, taught myself many different programming languages, and talked with my professors. One professor liked my portfolio and hired me to work with his salaried employees on a game that the university is making as a technical artist. I am working on the project as I finish my degree.

So now when I am done with school in 3 months I will have a good degree from an amazing university, with tons of work experience, for around 40k. That's the approach most people should take IMO. Go to a real school while working on your portfolio on the side.

Some places count your school years as experience. seems like more and more are. I mean, a minimum of 2 years experience for a junior role, without allowing school to count is a little rediculous, i think.

I didn't mean to start an argument btw and as I was frustrated probably haven't written my point very clearly, and I most certainly don't expect the world to owe me anything (in fact coming from a poor 'for uk poor' background I have had to work hard for everything I have). I just cant help but feel a little betrayed by all those who encouraged me to go to higher education.
My only saving grace is that I do have the skills to improve my portfolio and I am doing as much as I can but there are hell of a lot of others who left the art related courses without any skills (yet still have a degree on paper) and either have to start form the beginning or pick up where they left off and try to scratch a living.

It just completely sucks.

Here's the thing. can you learn all the skills you need to get a job without going to school? yes. would you have gotten to where you are without it? Thats up to you. some people have the motivation to learn on their own. some dont. school can be great for some, as it pushes them to finish projects. some people dont need that push.

So, would you have had the motivation to keep going without the deadlines and marks and all that jazz?

Originally Posted by Artist_in_a_box

I didn't mean to start an argument btw and as I was frustrated probably haven't written my point very clearly, and I most certainly don't expect the world to owe me anything (in fact coming from a poor 'for uk poor' background I have had to work hard for everything I have). I just cant help but feel a little betrayed by all those who encouraged me to go to higher education.
My only saving grace is that I do have the skills to improve my portfolio and I am doing as much as I can but there are hell of a lot of others who left the art related courses without any skills (yet still have a degree on paper) and either have to start form the beginning or pick up where they left off and try to scratch a living.

It just completely sucks.

Don't worry, you are not the only one. Higher Education now a days is becoming a joke. 60% of the people in college are just throwing their money away. It's a legal scam IMO.

Originally Posted by Artist_in_a_box

What annoys me is that when i was younger people told you to go to uni and promised you it would be worth something.

I do think a lot of my parents generation really seemed to work that way. So its understandable that our elders encouraged us to do what they did and get qualifications. It wasnt worth the money or time for me either but it did teach me how to live on my own and how to get off my ass and work hard for what I want, even when my lecturers dont have the skills or time or resources to teach me.
University of Polycount FTW.

You go to school to get an education, not a degree. The biggest travesty is that people seem to have forgotten that and don't take their education seriously.

The reason degrees are more relevant in technical fields is because their standards are much less subjective, more easily measured, and most importantly they are usually fields where a portfolio cannot be provided, so they judge applicants on what little they have which is usually only "Where has this guy worked in the past, does he have any recommendations, where did he go to school"

The fact that people see it as a bad thing that the industry doesn't care where you went to school is somewhat depressing to me because I see it as a good thing: Even the self-trained can compete on par with everyone else if he can build a strong enough portfolio on his own, a luxury most other industries don't have because a degree is a barrier of entry.

Originally Posted by Ged

University of Polycount FTW.

Amen to that

Having zero experience of my own, take this with a grain of salt.

I think a lot of companies put that there to weed out younger folks who think their college-project portfolios make them ready for anything. It is not necessarily a definite "Yes, you need to actually have this experience", it's mostly just to deter applicants who don't meet that requirement that might be reading - under the assumption that their skills are probably not what they're wanting, and so it will hopefully save them from having to wade through a sea of underskilled college grads (or hobbyists).

I'd say if you have the portfolio, if you have the skills, you should be putting in applications to such places regardless of whether or not you have the "field experience" they're looking for. You may be surprised.

It's not about respect for a degree it's about having confidence in your abilities - you should be applying to jobs that ask for 1-3 years experience, nobody is going to put a post up that says "no experience required".

The fact that people see it as a bad thing that the industry doesn't care where you went to school is somewhat depressing to me because I see it as a good thing: Even the self-trained can compete on par with everyone else if he can build a strong enough portfolio on his own, a luxury most other industries don't have because a degree is a barrier of entry.

I hadn't really looked at it from that perspective man but you do have a point. A degree shouldn't be a barrier as in this industry its the quality of work that matters not the piece of paper you have on your fridge but shouldn't a degree be a guarantee of at least a minimum of ability? My uni let lots of people resit more than once just so their figures looked better. Which in return has diluted the merit of the degree as now two guys with a 2:1 can have a massive gap in skill level which has made employers (in my opinion) distrustful of the degree itself as in truth it isn't a guarantee of anything other than they wasted 3 years of their life.

Also we do go to uni for an education not a degree, however at least in terms of game industry related courses the educational standard in the UK was really bad.We where taught the very basics which for the amount of cash and time we spent there was really not worth it. I wish I had had the guts to leave in first year tbh.

Nobody gives a shit about degrees. Portfolio is king.

Originally Posted by Swizzle

Nobody gives a shit about degrees. Portfolio is king.

Portfolio is king but I've seen shits given about degrees

With 2 graduates of equalish portfolio skill and equal like-ability in the interview, I'd be more likely to hire the one who hangs around on CG Talk and Polycount and has worked on a mod than one that spent 3 years doing a university degree in games.

I've read hundreds of CVs and I've done dozens of interviews, and the level of quality of most (but certainly not all) of those courses is low. There are many students however who realise this and work hard to teach themselves what the course is lacking, and this is great - self motivation is a superb quality.

shouldn't a degree be a guarantee of at least a minimum of ability?

For the student? Definitely.

For the employer? What's the point really when you can just demand a portfolio?

I disagree with the notion that degrees are worthless (*to employers) because the education is so poor, degrees are worthless because the quality of all of our work can be far more accurately demonstrated with a portfolio and an art test. Even if you went to a GOOD art school, even if ALL art schools were good and provided great education, everyone would still expect to see a portfolio.

School teaches you tools. Skill is completely up to you, and how much YOU want to put into it.

I actually thing degrees are favoured by employers more than is suggested on here... at least in the UK anyway, I can't speak for the US.

Here's why;

I know 7 people who applied for jobs last year, 5 artists, a concept artist and an animator.

5 of those had been to uni, all had similar quality folios (a couple had slightly better than others). 4 of those people got jobs at UK companies straight out of uni with a degree, the other 3 (including the two 'self-taught') did not.

I would like to see the results of a poll on here from every UK resident who has gotten their first industry job in the last 1-2 years on whether they have a games/art related degree or not. I would wager that the large majority, if not all, are uni grads. Not industry vets or people who've been in for 4+ years, just recent grads/Juniors. The level of education on games courses here in the UK is seemingly improving rapidly, there's plenty of fine examples of work in the Hertfordshire Uni thread, and my Brother is currently on a college level games course whose syllabus has been greatly improved this year and from what I can see, the tutors seem pretty switched-on, and seem to know the modern industry fairly well.

I'm not saying a degree = job, of course it doesn't, just as 'no-degree' doesn't mean 'no job'. I just think employers actually favour degrees more than a lot of people on here seem to think.

Of course level of work and portfolio quality will ALWAYS be the prime reason for interest in a candidate, I think a degree is definitely looked upon as a good quality by employers, and I think too many people sling the 'Degrees are meaningless' thing around here far too often.