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Old (#51)
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Originally Posted by Snefer View Post
NO way the new consoles arrives in 2012.
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chrismaddox3d's Avatar
Old (#52)
http://www.develop-online.net/news/3...os-in-December
Just read However, there is disagreement on the final release date for Microsoft’s next-gen system. Edge claims the console will hit retail in late 2012 – Develop’s sources point to late 2013.
I agree with what everyone has posted 2013 or later sounds about correct.
My self i play more PC games than console these days.
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Old (#53)
This is hardly even news, guys. Microsoft and sony leadership were obviously recruited into the illuminati inner circle years ago, and they're naturally going to rush their consoles out so they can cash in before the end in 2012.
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Old (#54)
I agree with Autocon.

Last edited by JacqueChoi; 08-29-2012 at 12:17 PM..
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ambershee's Avatar
Old (#55)
The quality of artists isn't going to magically go up around the board overnight, if ever. The quality of tools might.

Better hardware is really needed - not strictly for how games look, but also for what you can do with them. Memory is a BIG restriction right now, and console GPUs (7th generation) are now seven generations behind.

Development costs are going up, but I'm expecting the games themselves to change somewhat more than their content.
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Old (#56)
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Originally Posted by JacqueChoi View Post
I agree with Autocon.


It's completely assinine at this point for a new console. What will make better looking games at this point are BETTER ARTISTS.


Until we can have realtime cloth/hair simulation, and uncompressed animations/textures, it's REALLY not worth going forward with a newer console.



We don't need 2x more powerful. We need exponentially 10x more powerful than a PS3 for it to be somewhat worth it.


Development costs will likely skyrocket from $25-50million to over $100million.


I'm really not seeing where the benefits are coming from.

I agree with this somewhat, but why do you say its not worth it? More power would mean bigger levels, better quality audio/more audio, higher res textures, more geo, ect.

Working on Forza 4, we had to be extremely picky about geo/texture memory in order to hit 60fps. If we would have had 2-3x more CPU/GPU/Ram, we could have made even more detailed environments alot more easily. Of course it's very good practice to optimize as much as possible, but when you already have that and have to cut content, it sucks.
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Bigjohn's Avatar
Old (#57)
How big of an update was going from VHS to DVD? You still saw the movie, right? Or going from DVD to Blu-Ray? It's the same movie, sometimes literally the same movie as it had both a DVD and Blu-Ray release, but the benefits to Blu-Ray are obvious.

Honestly, if we got a console where every game was in full 1080p and had full scene anti-aliasing, in my opinion at least, that's worth switching to the next generation of consoles. But of course, that console could do a lot more too, with higher rez textures, higher rez skeletal meshes, etc etc


Also, when they say that the next generation will hit in 2012, I took it to mean that devkits will hit in 2012 so that development can start on those games, not that the console will go on sale to the general public in 2012. When those games are done, then they'll release it, which will be in at least a couple of years afterwards. So it still makes sense.
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ambershee's Avatar
Old (#58)
Just think that if the games didn't change, and we had about 6Gb of memory to read from, you'll almost never see a loading screen again (except for when you first start playing the game each session).

That in itself sounds awesome to me ;)
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Old (#59)
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Originally Posted by eld View Post
I think you missed the fact that sony and ms with their new consoles managed to shift large portions of the pc gaming public towards consoles, they managed to bring over developers to their consoles and have them develop games that just hadn't happened on consoles before that.

I think it's enough to just look at call of duty or something more niche but yet super popular like elderscrolls to realize what kind of thing that has been achieved with the more "hardcore" console market.

Sony and microsoft will be releasing new vastly more powerful consoles, heck, sony already has with the vita, which is silly powerful.
I never said AAA is going away. Top blockbuster games make tons of money, that business will continue. It's the bottom 70% of the retail market that is disappearing. We saw lots of studio closings this generation that showed that.

However, a healthy market for blockbuster AAA is not a big enough reason for MS and Sony to release "vastly more powerful consoles." That's ignoring the rest of the picture. They will release new, more powerful consoles, but the generational leap will not be what you are used to. Taking a loss on high end hardware doesn't make much sense anymore.

The business model of stupidly powerful consoles with stupidly high price tags is primed to be disrupted by a digital open market.
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Old (#60)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambershee View Post
Just think that if the games didn't change, and we had about 6Gb of memory to read from, you'll almost never see a loading screen again (except for when you first start playing the game each session).

That in itself sounds awesome to me ;)
More RAM does not = faster loading times. Your hard drive does that.
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Andreas's Avatar
Old (#61)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Autocon View Post
The biggest problem with going onto the new generation compared to the last one is there is honestly no HUGE visual difference between what we have this generation and next. Going from PS2 you gained pixle shaders and had the ability have things like specular/normal maps. It DRAMATICALLY changed the way games looked.

What do you gain from the coming generation? Visually not a ton. Sure things look better but the difference between PS2 to PS3 will not be had going from PS3 to PS4. The big selling point of the PS4 generation will be tessellation. And honestly I dont see most consumers noticing a big enough difference to say hey yes I will buy another 400+ dollar console. It just dosnt add enough. Or at least thats how I see it.
I agree somewhat, but add simulated hair and cloth to that. And much prettier lighting.

But yeah. New consoles are FAR aways yet. Not even next E3.
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Old (#62)
Personally I could give a rat's ass bout "gameplay"... And I will definitley have to puke if I hear "another"
gameplay before graphics post on a graphics oriented forum.

As if all this technology is not going to evolve into somthing other than just the current
button mashing masturbation that some think is all so sacred. I'd say the best game
experience I have had in this current gen was Bioshock. And that immersion had nothing to do
with it's lackluster FPS "gameplay" which was far from tuned. But instead came from a
level of acting and storytelling that immersed the user in a dystopic environment achieved
with a terrifying environment art, mature narrative and a beautiflul score/dripping wet sound design soundscape.
Now I would be fine if Bioshock Infinite did absolutely nothing to improve "gameplay" if only the
distractingly bad graphic elements were addressed instead:
( unreal 2.5 horrid compression of textures, sub-par immature character sculpting ). And I am willing to
bet that game will affect me more than all the other banal, boingy boingy, Brain reward center,
mario jack-off, button junk food gameplay gems combined.

In the future where a digital interactive immersive art has finally evolved games will
simply be it's pornography.

I would consider such game play before art sentiment "suspect" normally...
( that on an artist-centric forum as much would be a cover for talent insecurities ) but a lot of really
talented folk here seem perfectly fine with "putting down" graphics and do not find associating visuals as
the tacky enemy of good gameplay insulting in any way.
Bad gameplay is the enemy of good gameplay. Nothing else.
You could claim that the expense of graphics steals from investment in good gameplay.
Which I suppose is true. So what does visuals cost? Is there a multi-billion dollar visual machine that
spits out expensive graphics indies do not hace access to?
The only thing they do not have access to are the army of the best talent and
the paying masses that appreciate the sweat and talent of the work you got paid for.
And instead of calling bullshit on that envious sentiment for what it really is: Petty jealousy against
what they cannot afford ( A large team of talented creative minds working hard on a craft they mastered ).
Many artists have instead adopted the same atitude to their own craft. I can imagine a musician calling any
other "signed" musician a "sellout" because they have to much respect for their craft...
But I wouldn't want music composers to start rallying for less orchestrated music scores in games in
favor of midi instead. To each his own. The promise of visual magic and all that is possible is dead in you?

If you are an artist then grow a pair and be an artist. The very thought of what I might be able to do with
shadows and light in a future without the current console economic ball and chain is liberating in itself.
A beautiful hypereal future better than realism does not suffer from anything uncanny:

I am not sure how a new generation of consoles will introduce any concerns that would make visuals
more expensive. ( executing new technologies may require more programming development )
but an army of artists that have an interest in and a savvy for next gen 2.0 is just that....
the size does not have to grow if you already have a team that was hired for and proven they can handle "new".
It's now all gravy ( or should be ). the pain of transistioning happened already.
You as a specialist have already been hired.
( when the industry concentrated on elevated graphics in the first place ).

The argument in the article that MS and Sony do not want to trail Wii U does seem like a very
good economic point. In which case future forward thinking hardware concerns and past experience makes me
think that I might actually want to wait out the current technology chips ( Kepler ) and instead hope that
some level of Maxwell/Ivy Bridge-E will be enough to develop comfortably with.
The 6800 gtx was the nvidia chip during xbox 360 production, however my 7800 gtx was far from
adequate compared to the tuned performance the xenon/xenos allows.
( I imagine an nvidia equivalent to be the gtx 8800 or 8800 ultra. )

Considering the Samaritin demo was on a gtx 580 tri sli machine to run smoothly. I am hoping the numbers touted by
nvidia on x79 scaling are true:

SLI is so very sexy when the drivers are tweaked correctly.
http://www.geforce.com/News/articles...rboards-launch
http://www.ubergizmo.com/2011/11/nvidia-4-way-x79/

In general I find when running games in 3d or with multi-monitor resolutions...
Without good SLI scaling, overclocking with modded bios to over volt and watercooled for the heat that
creates, there are many games that bring my hardware to it's knees.
Craving an openworld where I could camp for days instead of seconds I imagine that hardware is far far far away.
Actually, if a new console isn't released till 2013 that will give the right amount of hardware distance to future
proof yer imagination. ( using the past experience from the last release again) If xbox 720 is more powerful than
the NV chip in production at the time ( which would be Maxwell in 2013 ) It would then have to be MORE THAN:
Quote:
" 8 times better than Tesla, 7.5 times better than Fermi and at 2.5 times faster then Kepler"
that 1 year would
make a huge difference to the gamescape of the next 10 years. Hopefully filled with very little compromise.
Either way...
it would sure be nice if they included mouse and keyboards with a new xbox so there is no need for XIM . But that argument is a page longer.


1rst POST!
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Andreas's Avatar
Old (#63)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr jekyll View Post
Personally I could give a rat's ass bout "gameplay"... And I will definitley have to puke if I hear "another"
gameplay before graphics post on a graphics oriented forum.

1rst POST!
Uh really? Do you not think... playing games is what got us into games development in the first place?
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Old (#64)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snefer View Post
Why would you think that? I think heavier shaders and postprocessing will be the "selling point" nothing people can point out specifically, but I think our rendering quality will increase ALOT, we dont really need that much more polys, its the shader, lighting and postprocessing etc that is lagging behind. Playing through uncharted I barely noticed any polies, so you guys are a good example of that ;) Looking at epics samaritan demo, if you would pull that down to 10% of the polycount you probably wouldnt notice it THAT much, and specially not during gameplay. Hopefully alot of that stuff will be under the hood aswell, so the production time dont increase AGAIN.

And NO way the new consoles arrives in 2012.
I went with tessellation because I think it would be the most visually striking change for your average consumer. Things like postprocessing/better shaders would go more un-noticed by your average wallmart shopper. I could be wrong here.

And tessellation doesn't add enough striking visual difference to really warrant a new console.



As for lighting, I honestly think its just because most studios dont have professional lighting artists hired to focus just on lighting. Really there are some games out there or small parts of games with great lighting, but most, most suck because of just bad lighting artists. And thats because you have your modeler doing the lighting instead of a real professional lighting artist.

Im not saying modelers are bad lighting artists, nor am I saying that they shouldn't light things because hey I love doing lighting. But there absolutely is a huge difference between someone who went to school/self taught themselves how to model and someone who went to school to become a lighting artist.

Having someone who's sole job is to focus on lighting will always net you better results as they are constantly working with the tools, they are learning tips and techniques to push it further and instead of worry about poly budgets, gameplay, frame rate. They are only focused on the lighting/color/mood/shader interaction.

If you want better lighting, hire real lighting artists, great tech can make anything look good, but having a great artist behind that tech can make things look amazing.
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Del's Avatar
Old (#65)
~ One huge trend that happens everytime there's a new console out.

A fuckton of studios Shut the Fuck down due to changeover costs and general development prices.
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dr jekyll's Avatar
Old (#66)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Uh really? Do you not think... playing games is what got us into games development in the first place?
For me it was the Nvidia demo-ing of the final fantasy movie in "real time".
And I saw the promise of a future art whose immersion level might some day rival cinema and thus become the predominant art form. ( a promise I feel is still constrained by the compromises imposed by current console economic concerns )

Games are just the only game in town. Happily I have had a console since the magnavox Odyssey. So yeah I like squeezing one off just as much as the next guy.
But still look forward to the revolution.

And sadly I haven't found the game that has hit me as hard as the best film experiences.
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Old (#67)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr jekyll View Post
Personally I could give a rat's ass bout "gameplay"... And I will definitley have to puke if I hear "another"
gameplay before graphics post on a graphics oriented forum.
That just sounds like a pretty egocentric point of view to me. It's not about us artists, it's about the game. People play them because they're fun, not because they have great graphics. They could go and watch a movie instead if they want outstanding visuals.

As for lighting; Better hardware = More lights = easier to achieve better lighting. Think of large levels which currently only supports a limited amount of lights until it f-s up. More lights would benefit in those cases.

I read somewhere that the ps4 and 720 or loop or whatever will be out in 2014. I highly doubt they will release the consoles before any games are finished, they've only now just sent out devkits to a few companies. 2014 still sounds a bit too early though.

Edit: @Dr jekyll: That wasn't an attack against you as a person, it was your comment that I criticised.

Last edited by Saman; 11-17-2011 at 12:45 PM..
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Old (#68)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goraaz View Post
That just sounds like a pretty egocentric point of view to me. It's not about us artists, it's about the game. People play them because they're fun, not because they have great graphics. They could go and watch a movie instead if they want outstanding visuals.

As for lighting; Better hardware = More lights = easier to achieve better lighting. Think of large levels which currently only supports a limited amount of lights until it f-s up. More lights would benefit in those cases.

I read somewhere that the ps4 and 720 or loop or whatever will be out in 2014. I highly doubt they will release the consoles before any games are finished, they've only now just sent out devkits to a few companies. 2014 still sounds a bit too early though.
As much as I am ridiculed for being an Artist ( in my lifetime ) I think most artists rarely make "ego_centric" rants... My ego is about as withered, beaten and pathetic as they come.

I'd say it is a rather art-centric comment.

guilty.
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Old (#69)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
~ One huge trend that happens everytime there's a new console out.

A fuckton of studios Shut the Fuck down due to changeover costs and general development prices.

What would have to change ( regarding graphics )
That this iteration would cause to cost extra?
Would your team not be up to it?
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Old (#70)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr jekyll View Post
What would have to change ( regarding graphics )
That this iteration would cause to cost extra?
Would your team not be up to it?
~ By asking this question You clearly don't understand how videogames are developed or funded.
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eld's Avatar
Old (#71)
I think an important factor which is completely ignored with graphics is its affects on gameplay.

Every one of these fantastic looking games out on the market today on the consoles have earned its looks from using a ton of tricks, and having a very focused scene of gameplay, and faking everything that is outside of it. And there's a ton of budget put down into developing systems that can do these things, or stream content, and there's a ton of artists that have to spend time on doing things that really doesn't add to the art at all, like optimizations, planning to make something cost less than it does, building lod steps, remaking stuff since they already baked something.

It's not just about the art, it's what kind of worlds we can create that are actually real and going on, without having to rely on faking everything that is outside of the players near view, it's about having the same kind of fidelity but being able to do these elderscrolls type of games where you can just build the world and not have to worry about how to solve the backdrop.



There's a ton of money going in to trying to fake things to seem like things they are not, while we could in fact with the current pc hardware levels having reached exponentially higher levels than the consoles do some really real experiences without having to cut down on the fantastic level of technical achievements we have managed to reach, and the artwork we could do with those tools.

Maybe one day we don't have to do this:


Last edited by eld; 11-17-2011 at 12:23 PM..
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Old (#72)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
~ By asking this question You clearly don't understand how videogames are developed or funded.
This is actually very true, the only games I have worked on was funded by an eccentric rich hippie with an inheritance that I burned through never to see the light of day.
So please.
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Old (#73)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prophecies View Post
More RAM does not = faster loading times. Your hard drive does that.
When the player begins the game, load content for that section of the game into memory. As the player progresses, stream it from the disk into memory. Higher bandwidth and more memory means you can put more in memory, and faster - given a current optical disk based game tends to be under 6.5Gb (albeit compressed) to fit on a DVD, given 6Gb of memory and reasonable bandwidth, sitting pretty with current-gen content could cut out the need to load between levels.

The situation eld describes above with Mass Effect streaming content while you wait in an elevator is a classic example of not having enough memory to contain the content, so it has to play switcheroo while the game is still running. This is still in the PC version, but if you have a reasonable spec machine, it's all handled well before whatever quip the characters come out with.

There are games that already do this on the 360s limited spec.

Last edited by ambershee; 11-17-2011 at 12:34 PM..
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Old (#74)
Quote:
Originally Posted by eld View Post
I think an important factor which is completely ignored with graphics is its affects on gameplay.

Every one of these fantastic looking games out on the market today on the consoles have earned its looks from using a ton of tricks, and having a very focused scene of gameplay, and faking everything that is outside of it. And there's a ton of budget put down into developing systems that can do these things, or stream content, and there's a ton of artists that have to spend time on doing things that really doesn't add to the art at all, like optimizations, planning to make something cost less than it does, building lod steps, remaking stuff since they already baked something.

It's not just about the art, it's what kind of worlds we can create that are actually real and going on, without having to rely on faking everything that is outside of the players near view, it's about having the same kind of fidelity but being able to do these elderscrolls type of games where you can just build the world and not have to worry about how to solve the backdrop.
Thats a really good point!
Reminds me of Tim Sweeny evangalizing as much... ( Not only the art pipeline but all the trickery he hacks together when in the future raw processing power would/should alleviate )
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Old (#75)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr jekyll View Post
Thats a really good point!
Reminds me of Tim Sweeny evangalizing as much... ( Not only the art pipeline but all the trickery he hacks together when in the future raw processing power would/should alleviate )
Exactly, I wouldn't in any way deny the sheer awesomeness in people pulling tricks to make games look good, I've been through all that hard work myself, and I've seen fantastic artists together with programmers pull some true magic.

But we are essentially spending a ton of money on making sure we can actually make these good looking scenes work, and so that we can squeeze that last bit of prop in, and then cutting levels apart, zoning them and having to make sure we don't go above the already silly low memory levels we have in the consoles.

You can easily build a computer and put in 32 times the standard memory of a console in it without it having to cost much extra.
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