making a livable wage as an indie dev
polycounter lvl 18
"Go indie" comes up alot in layoff, studio closures or just general quality of life threads. So indie guys, it's time to give us some real information - is it possible to make an equal amount of money in indie game dev as a studio or freelance job?
Replies
www.radiangames.com
He has a lot of sales statistics and breakdowns and has links to other indie studios (specifically related to XBLIG) that also have info.
Anything else just seems like a huge waste of time and money. Coming up with another generic FPS, or some average racer, usually results in massive failure even when it has the backing of big name publishers, so a small, independent developer could never hope to gain any substantial revenue with the kind of funding, marketing and promotion they would have access to.
The most successful indie games are generally innovative, fun and straightforward in execution and rely on unique gameplay as a USP. Minecraft for example (not exactly 'unique', but not another blown out FPS either). Joe Danger, a simple, fun little concept.
Then you have the likes of Popcap who are obviously not short of a buck.
I think chasing a salary hoping to get a clone on XBLA or PSN, or even to retail is a dumb move but if you have a great idea, get a little team, deploy it to iOS, sell it for a Dollar and reap the profits, of which there are still plenty to be had.
/my two cents as an observer and amateur iPhone app maker.
Edit:
Also, the great thing about going indie, is that you don't necessarily need to quit your job, and go all in to start an indie project. Work a 9-5, or any other job that gives you a nice few hours spare each evening and work on it then. Get together with your friends/colleagues/fellow indie guys and get to work.
That's what I'm currently doing, the only official financial outlay is the Apple dev membership fee so if our app sells 0 copies, it's no big loss, we take it as an experience, a lesson learned and move on. If it sells a million copies, then maybe I'll reevaluate the situation.
then how do you make ends meet? How is going indie a viable alternative to a job that pays $40-60k a year? Satisfaction with making a game doesn't pay the bills or put food on the table.
I guess it's equal to writing books, just because you write them doesn't mean you'll get automatic revenue.
Becoming an indie-dev is a long time investment, so don't fully go into it without having something else to fall back on, you don't have any publisher or employer taking all those risks for you, you are taking those risks now.
Many indie-developers will get stuck in the shovel-ware zone where they'll never get a hit going, and they'll be pushing out tiny titles as often as they can so that they can have as many out there as possible.
Edit: but yes, what has been said after and before this post, don't quit your daytime-job until you know you will be able to support yourself, be indie on your free-time at first.
See my edit.
I guess you could take a business loan and live off of that until the business starts profiting, or use savings, but again, it's a very risky move unless you are sure that you have something great.
what free time? :P
I was hoping the people that toss "go indie" around so casually had actual reasons other than being snarky.
oh shit, they better hurry up and finish or else it will all be for naught.
I'm guessing the people who say go indie are referring to people in senior roles who would be in good stead to run a team, rather than a single artist or designer or whatever.
The problem I see is that the guys who have been laid off, might have been laid off due to studio closure. If a studio closes, it's because game sales were poor (apart from when it is due to business deals, mergers, relocation etc). If game sales were poor then one of two things happened, either the game plain sucked, or it didn't have the financial backing to fund the hype machine from a huge publisher.
Going indie means you're not gonna have big publisher funding, so you better hope your game doesn't suck, or you're back where you started.
At the end of the day you just need to make a great new game and cross your fingers, the risk is a lot higher, there may be no payoff at all. If the game doesn't sell or get finished you get nothing. If it does sell, you get a hell of a lot more.
If the extra freedom and creative control you get from going indie doesn't excite you, i'd say pass on it as that's the only fuel to get it all done.
Then again, you could fake amnesia when you go home. I heard Vodka works well in large doses, although making shaders then will be a bitch.
First off don't take out a loan, that's just insanity. Making a wildly or even mildly successful game your first or even your first few times out is probably a very very rare occurrence. I think you'll need enough money stashed away to be able to live comfortably for at least a year maybe two before any reasonable success starts happening.
Here's why:
It's like learning to make 3D artwork, the first character or prop you made sucked right? especially when compared to what you can create now that you are a pro. How long did it take before you were making anything decent at an employable level? It's the same with making games. I think you need to make a lot of games and learn from them in order to be able to make something good. Minecraft wasn't made overnight nor was it Notch's first game endeavor, not by a long shot.
But making games is hard! and it takes a lot of time... So how do you make a lot of games to build up that experience in order to get to a point that you can reasonably make fun games that people will play and maybe even purchase? The answer is to keep them simple and focused, especially at first.
What does that mean you ask? Well a full on UDK normal mapped FPS or whatever is probably out of the question. I think without any experience at making games on your own you need to start with the easiest thing possible which in my opinion is Flash games.
Earn some money while getting experience:
Make some focused quality games and sell them on Flash Game License. Don't spend half a year on each game, get them done in about 2 months, or at least that's the advice I've heard. Otherwise the money earned doesn't increase along with the time spent.
Or find a company that wants a game made and do contract work for them.
If you somehow end up with a very successful game during this process go ahead and make a better PC version of it and try direct sales ideally through Steam, or if you are feeling really lucky an iPhone port. With a popular Flash game you have fans that will buy your enhanced version in addition to spreading the word about your game to their friends.
Also from what I can tell the smaller your team the better, ideally this is a one or two person deal not counting any contractor specialists like a sound/music person. Any more than that and you really need to make some serious money in order to support everyone which I state again is really hard to do with your first games. There are exceptions like the Hawken team which will hopefully make a fortune, though I would guess success like that isn't the norm for indie teams of that size.
I guess I never 'went' indie; more like I 'started' indie. I made ~2-month Flash games during a university summer break and within a few months was making a livable salary.
Granted, most people don't find that level of success. Somehow I've been stupidly lucky over and over when it comes to business (karmic balance for being unlucky in almost everything else, I think). I also live an extremely low-maintenance lifestyle and was able to live at home when I started so I had no mortgage or rent.
Actually I'm still at home (partly from health issues) but soon I'll be the youngest person I know to actually buy a place anywhere near Vancouver. The housing market is crazy expensive here so most people have to rent for a very long time to get the money for the tiniest of places.
But anyways, rambling now, going indie is risky. Worse still is that most people do it in the riskiest ways.
- Big projects almost always fail.
- Mobile is highly overrated; success is based on luck or the amount of money you have to invest in advertising, and very few apps make more than a couple hundred dollars.
- XBLIG is a joke that and it's crazy that anyone ever took it seriously.
- Good luck getting anywhere near XBLA/PSN/WiiWare. Even if you do, good luck passing certification. Even if you do, good luck selling anything.
- Unity is impressive but where's the market? Precious few portals host unity games which means they get less traffic which means there's not much money there.
- Downloadable PC/Mac/Linux games are safer, but it's still damn hard to get from 'selling a few copies' to 'making a living'.
IMO the browser is the place to be. Flash sponsorships are down a bit but even then are still far more reliable income than any other method. I'm moving into persistent multiplayer games with micro-transactions now, which is where the big money is (that's not why I'm doing it, but it's a nice perk).
I have somewhat recently been through a few rounds of redundancy's, from that there have been a few successful indie start-ups, a few that are just hovering, and several others that have released apps/games but I can't imagine are sustaining anyone's lifestyle.
A few points they all have in common, initial funding via redundancy check, gov funding, personal savings and possibly loans. At least a year before they had a successful release, most cases longer.
To speak a little on each startup, or at least the information i have. All are producing apps/games for ios/android.
example 1: team of three comprised of art director, lead programmer, producer/lead design. These guys are kicking ass (no surprise eh?). Looks to me that they approached this in a very classical business sense, rent office space, secure funding from several sources, start small expand upon success. Two years and a few titles later they are working with top tier publishers and i imagine not only supporting themselves/family's but laying the foundations for future conquests.
example 2: a team startup of 5 people, less classical than the above, first title tanked but they did create a wholly owned engine in the process. This was a younger team, and i think parents basements may have made moving forward viable (more power to them if you ask me). 2nd title possibly just over a year after start up was a massive success, they now have a sequel, have at least doubled in size and look to be going from strength to strength.
Additionally a few guys struck out on their own, I'm yet to hear of that working out or at least not yet. There are about another half dozen team startups, some are late to the game, have released their initial title to a so so reception and may still release brilliance but mostly its sounding like a shitload of work for less than minimum wage.
Outside of this the remainder who just updated their portfolios and relocated for another studio job did pretty alright in retrospect, often with a redundancy funded holiday in between.
You made a ton of examples with multi-person teams, but when it came to a one-person team it suddenly becomes super hard and very expensive?
There are many one-man indie developers out there, but usually after success they have enough funding to hire some more guys on contract or similar.
I would dare saying "almost", it was his first attempt to actually sell a game if I remember correctly, and the important detail: he did it while working, and quit his daytime job the day he had enough revenue to support himself, there wasn't any risk involved.
I missed the part where it was involved with layoffs and stuff, but my own intention has not been to try to be snarky (I hope)
I think what I was trying to get at is that usually when people open a bussiness (a store or a company for services) it'll take more than a year before they can actually make it go around, that is if they're even successful, 'going indie' is far more risky than lets say 'going freelance'
Which is why I keep talking about the one-man-freetime way of doing it.
It essentially means working a day job and sacrificing some of your free-time, but it also means you aren't risking anything, you can be in a safe position until your games start selling good.
Yeah that's a good point about Notch working a day job while creating Minecraft.
My point was more that he had the experience of programming and designing games for years before Minecraft (while releasing them for free).
I just don't like it when I hear about people spending a year or more on their first game (going into debt in some cases) then wondering why it wasn't a success then quitting altogether.
I think in general many indie developers expect too much out of their first efforts then give up when they don't reach those expectations early on.
He had, but he was still relatively fresh in game-design, he had enough willpower to see his project through to the point where it hit big though. Even Notch himself wasn't sure at first why minecraft had hit so big.
Another example would be Toady-one with dwarf fortress, from what I recall he isn't super experienced with programming, nor is he a game-designer but he still made and keeps working on one of the best games out there.
Exactly, putting money or more man-hours into a project will not help improve its chance of success, it takes quite a few tries before you hit that sweet spot of sales and PR.
Another thing is that going indie means you become your own personal McNamara. You'll have to really love what you're doing or you won't be happy about the time you have to put into the project.
Yeah... luck, that's the one factor I don't like to think about (since I'm not all that lucky...) but I think it does play a role in success for indies.
I didn't know about Dwarf Fortress's creator being relatively inexperienced, interesting...
If I only had to time to really play that game for all it's worth, it seems very awesome indeed.
This is so true. I'm still struggling to reach a point of even being able to code my own games. I think the only thing that keeps me inching forward to that goal is that I enjoy challenge and would love to be able to make my own games.
Skim sites like newgrounds and kongregate and turn that cheap looking but fun flash game into a money maker. During this time you should also work on your baby; that creative pride and joy that will take a while to just get right until it's done. And remember that as you make that personal game your knockoff products and sequels will bring in some cashflow.
I almost wish I was joking.
See the following examples:
http://armorgames.com/play/3614/crush-the-castle and then VVVV
http://www.rovio.com/index.php?page=angry-birds
http://www.farm-town.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/farmtown-logo.jpg VVVV
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/64/FarmVille_logo.png
I think somewhere the original personal idea got lost in translation or something or maybe the devs lost track of time. I blame greed, but you get the idea.
I wouldn't tell you to not do it. Just plan for the worst, hope for the best. I think rapid prototyping, iteration, and developing something while you're still at work is important. Also have talented Programmers you can take the ride with.
http://www.retrogradegame.com is the game if anyone is interested.
I don't think a complete novice could put something out as an Indie and make a livable wage. The market is getting tougher and more refined everyday.
A successful indie project does require a programmer at the core to drive it, but if you're strong-willed you can learn just enough to get by.
Take something like unity where you can easily just learn logic and a bit of scripting.
You could do the most technically simple one-button game but still have it be super-fun and a big success.
Gamemaker is also very popular amongst indie-developers for its ease to use:
http://www.yoyogames.com/gamemaker/windows
Along the lines of Gamemaker now there's Stencyl for Flash.
Good point eld, let me clarify.
The examples I listed were direct observations of past work colleges indie efforts following redundancy. In this situation, with this group of people its worked out that im yet to see them make a sustainable income, but hey different group of people could easily see it slanted in the other direction.
Edit - Awesome looking title jeffro!
J. O. B. Just Over Broke
As long as you're working for someone else, that's where you're likely to be. I know it's where I am, now. The goal for all of us needs to be to get to a place where you can set your own worth/time while reaching for, or attaining, your goals, instead of earning what someone else thinks you are worth while working to achieve their goals.
I don't know if there is any secret, or easy road, to make that happen, but it's definitely what my wife and I are trying to make happen.
The number of people who make it big by working on their own is tiny compared to the number of highly-paid professionals in the games industry. I wouldn't listen to your instructor.
I should have prefaced that by saying I did not go to school for games/art, but architectural engineering tech and construction visualization.
But my point is this, I am almost 35. I've been working for other people since I was 15, and I'm just about fucking tired of it.
Anyway, I never said anything about making it big, I'm talking about being your own boss (which may not be for everyone).
One of these days soon, we're all going to be dead, and I don't want to look back on my life as an old man and see an endless, cog-in-the-machine vignette of me doing shit that didn't matter so I could draw a paycheck, while someone else raked in all the profits.
Let me add, I don't hate my job, but, eventually, I want to be the one who calls the shots and directs my time.
I understand what you're saying but in the games industry it's quite possible to do things that matter while working for someone else. It's not a requirement to be your own boss to do great work that's rewarding.
I know, and I support people who love their jobs and are satisfied that they are being respectfully treated.
I have never had it bite me in the ass, but you can bet if you make the next angry birds while working for a big company, and they see you suddenly making a ton of money, chances are they are going to be lawyering up and wanting a slice of that pie if at all possible.
Then again, you always have hard asses; and to be safe, check your contract and ask your supervisor!
Personally, I find it hard to believe a company would try to put a claim on your free time... It is however, a whole different story if you've been working on the game on site during their time.
Because game development is extremely multi-disciplined.
If you are going to be working with a team, then this is less of an issue. Even a small team can spread the various tasks among its members. But teams are much harder to sustain as an indie developer if you don't have any significant start-up capital. You always have the option of doing a team indie development project on the side, but for that you have to have the patience for a slow development cycle.
The alternative is doing a game by yourself. This has the advantage of being much easier to sustain. But it has the disadvantage of limited labor, as well as running into the problem of presented by game's multi-disciplined nature. If you're going to produce a game solo, you actually have to have some degree of talent in a whole slew of different fields. You don't have to be the best at everything, but you have to at least be good...at everything.
Even the most solo efforts will usually seek out a little external help to shore up a few of their deficiencies.
This is how a proper team is organised. It's how good teams work.
Kentucky Route Zero, for example, is mostly about the art and the mood, and it did really well on Kickstarter. Jake Elliott got a lot of buzz for it from his previous game "A House in California" and it seems to have worked out for him... http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/149077132/kentucky-route-zero-a-magic-realist-adventure-game
My current project is taking a long time, which I am ok with. I've built a framework that will allow me to make this genre of game REALLY quick. And I plan on making a few more in this play-style. Doing all this stuff (Me and Yung on the current game) makes you realize how much is needed even for simple shit. I need sound, I need music, I need GUI. I know how GUI's work, I can code one up, but making an effective one? Only options are to keep getting better or get help from someone who is good. Music and sound? If you don't want it to sound generic(buying tracks), you are gonna have to find someone (or be good/decent at it yourself).
If you watch your money, the only REAL risk is time. My spending so far for iOS:
For PC dev/Steam everything is out there tool-wise. You're good to go.
All you can do is keep going since this is what you want. Learning the dance as you go.
@PixelMasher - I've never seen one that was broad as what you mentioned. I've only had "You can't make the same game as we are on your own/with someone else on a competing platform" and "You can't dev on a competing platform if you work freelance".
As for Kickstarter, I tried but realized that it's not money holding me back, just time. If I want it, I'll do it.
This might mean making some difficult choices regarding the style of the game. It's entirely possible that compromises of vision might have to be made in order to bring a project to completion.