T-Pose - What people are using and why?
polycounter lvl 9
So.... a couple of questions are popping up and I would like to sort this out.
A few years ago all the characters were literally on a T-pose
Ok but once we increase the polycount and details was changed to the 45 degrees.
Looking at Zbrush and Battle LA models I've noticed what seems like an evolution on the T-pose where now the arms are at an angle, it seems really good so it allows for a better work on the folds. What are your thoughts guys?
A few years ago all the characters were literally on a T-pose
Ok but once we increase the polycount and details was changed to the 45 degrees.
Looking at Zbrush and Battle LA models I've noticed what seems like an evolution on the T-pose where now the arms are at an angle, it seems really good so it allows for a better work on the folds. What are your thoughts guys?
Replies
If you're character is always going to be holding a rifle two handed, the Killzone bind pose really makes sense. If on the other hand you're going to have a character with a lot more acting, waving his arms around a lot, a 45 degrees bindpose is better I think, you still want a slight bend in the elbows though.
I don't think many companies still use the old-style T-pose, it's just hell to get the shoulders right with it.
The relaxed version is better as it has the figure in a more relaxed mid pose. you tend to get better deformations because the mesh starts in a mid state and doesn't have to be translated so much by the bones to reach its extreme poses. and since skinning has become a lot easier as of late the envolope problem is less of an issue.
This is my take on it anyway.
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Bal makes an excellent point, with the initial model close to your intended animation poses means less deformation and a better looking deformed model.
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At 45 degrees it also forces modelers to think about shoulders and how they would bend. In a T-pose they would often not care or not plan out the un-compressing of the shoulder and it would be hard to weight, leaving the shoulder definition up to the skin weighting without the geometry to properly support it. Shoulders are tricky enough without people adding to the problems... The more thought they have earlier on the better everything comes out.
We had a monster thread about this about the time the industry started to transition away from the T pose, I can't seem to find it tho, but then I'm not looking that hard...
One which has 45* down, and another one which has 45* up and sculpt from there.
It's next to frustrating to have a common quality character model which can have proper looking bends such as his arms relaxed, and once which he hangs with from a cliff that looks right.
If you use some 3dsk references with arms in the hair, in a gripping pattern, you'll notice an certain butterfly effect happening under the armpits and a pinching muscle concentration on your shoulder.
Some artists go the extra mile by making two Normal maps for the low poly, and baking those for the model in the poses, so that you get that bumping and stretching effect without having to create two seperate models in the lowpoly and hopong for the best. What a nightmare that would be.
However, that is used sparringly, so far I know of only one studio that explained this, and they didn't even use it in their games since their characters as clothed from heads to throw.
Another thing worth pointing out I think is that the 45 degree pose is actually closer to the centre of the shoulder's range of motion (even if they are putting their arms straight up) since when you raise your arms higher than T-pose then it's mostly your clavicle doing the work.
I agree about everything, and I'm looking forward to try the middle ground between the most common poses the character will do and the 45 degree T-Pose.
I might as well ask, for the eyes what are your thoughts? I always keep them looking directly straight so its easier for the rigger to know where the center is. But I've also heard some modelers that like to bend them slightly outwards to feel more natural(but I've always found that forces the rigger to get them straight before skinning them and then making that angle when animating)
also keeping them as separate meshes is very helpfull. that makes it very simple to get the pivots and it only takes a second to merge them into the mesh if its needed.
The reason for that, is that its easier to align the bone if the pivot isn't all jacked up, you're going to more than likely assign a look at target so it helps to have the local pivot in a good position.
If the eyes are "molded or distorted" then when they rotate there is a good chance they'll clip through the eyelids, which looks way worse than whatever that distortion was fixing. Normally if the modeler is distorting the eyeball to make it look right, they messed up the eye socket and should rework the socket not the eyeball.
Every production I've ever worked for, both inhouse and freelance has had their own variants on how they wanted things posed.
I guess the Character TD's and or Lead Animators have their own little preferences to achieve whatever they need to achieve. But sometimes I wondered if they were having me on!!
Typically though Its ranged from having all bends in limbs and curvature removed, to.... well.... 'riding the racing motorbike' - so straight backs, dead straight arms, fingers etc and a straight verticle line from neck, hip to ankle to litterally hunched over, every single limb bent and curved.
I mean come on......'riding the racing motorbike' T-pose !?!? <-- for a non motorbike racing game
I know your lurking out there and reading this thread you filthy Brigand !!!
If you look at a typical T Pose, the knees, elbows, shoulders and ass are all compacted but not UV mapped that way. They stretch from this compacted state, one extreme to another. It also forces modelers to think about joints if they're bent, they tend to sculpt in a knob for the joints pushing on the clothing where it looks better when bent rather than ignoring it completely when in the T pose.
The motorbike pose is kind of a nice idea but more of a pain in the ass for just about everyone involved. Especially when it comes to positioning joints in a posed/sculpted hand.
A slight bend in the legs and arms is good, you need a slight bend in the joints for IK to fold the right way, its nice if the model has that already rather than having the angle joints down a straight tube.
The standard T pose is the easiest pose to rig up, especially when it comes to rigging up the hands and fingers. Just so much can go wrong with trying to get finger joints in the right places on heavily posed characters, but if you're not moving the fingers around, who cares, motorbike it up.
I find most people don't put pivots in the right places, don't properly set up twist bones, get overcomplicated with the geometry in the shoulders, and then do a good shoddy job of weigthing geometry.
These things concern me:
- the importance of the anatomy on the armpit
- polygonal angle on the armpit for normal map baking
- humeroscapular rhythm (the movement of clavicles, scapulas and muscles related to the shoulder area)
- rigging the shoulders
Okay, I know that 90 degrees is a bit unnatural positon and 45 degrees is a somewhat good compromise. But I'll list pros and cons from my point of view.
90 degrees:
Pros:
- good anatomical definition on the axilla
- a lot smaller polygonal angle/crease for the normal map baking
- good for characters showing their upper body skin (tank top or completely shirtless for example)
- characters which are climbing and hanging from a ledge a lot (Tomb Raider and Uncharted series for example)
- or for a character who changes different type of clothes during the game a lot (Beyond: Two Souls for example)
Cons:
- harder to rig shoulders right
- clavicle, scapula and deltoid (and a couple of other muscles too, but a bit less though) are in an unnatural pose/tension
45 degrees:
Pros:
- more natural position in abovesaid anatomical areas
- easier to rig the shoulder area
- good for characters clothed with things that cover the shoulder/axilla area completely (such as blouse, t-shirt etc.)
Cons:
- not so great axilla anatomy for characters showing skin on the shoulder area
- a harder edge/crease under the armpit for normal map baking
- even with clothed characters the angle under the armpit is still too tight
- not for characters which raise their arms from a close up view.
0 degrees:
Pros:
- a completely natural rest position
- good for sculptures only
Cons:
- the axilla clips itself
- and pretty much everything else
What comes to my art, I've also tried t-poses in between 90 and 45 degrees too.
Typically coracobrachialis and the insertion of latissimus dorsi together with teres major are undefined on the 45 degrees or lower t-poses. The posterior axillary fold (created by lats and teres major) dives in between the coracobrachialis/biceps and triceps. BUT... clothes cover and save the quality of your axilla anatomy... :P
So, have you all character artists thought about these things? ;D
Can you elaborate on that briefly? I think I know what you're saying, but to be sure... do you mean rigging the skeleton in a T-pose, then posing the rig to fit the A-pose'd mesh and binding it? Am I understanding you correctly?
I'm curious because I don't ususally differentiate between the rigging and binding poses; to me they're one and the same and rigging in A-pose is not significantly harder IMO.
The T-Pose is the preferred neutral pose, when it comes to animation retargeting. I guess when the joints have 90 degree angles compared to world orientation, it easier for the system to apply motion on skeletons with different joint axis, and rigging in general. But you absolutely dont have to (and shouldnt) use the T-Pose for skinbinding.
@Eithos, i didnt see your reply earlier, yes you are right. I have a rigging system done in T-Pose (which makes some things easier) and use an A-Pose for skinning. No Problem, since i use different skeletons for the rig and the skinned exportskeleton . Of course you can also rig in A-Pose, i did that for many years.