Pimp my Arts!

DrunkShaman · Dec 2010

Greetings fellow Polycounters;

After hitting my head with female figure arts, I finally called it as my personal reference for 3d arts. Reason being, I am planning to learn everything from concept art to the final rendered out model.

After posting my "arts" in my sketch book and getting no decent reply but phrases such as "oh you should really learn the arts before posting" I took time to learn different aspects of the art. Finally I done some stuff which are worth criticizing upon.

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DrunkShaman · Dec 2010

crit on!

Also, if anyone know how to lock the pixels on one layer and use the new from existing layer to keep your paintings under those pixels. I'd really appreciate it.

bounchfx · Dec 2010

I want to see the feet.

Noors · Dec 2010

what's the point of posting 4k images ? Don't you know my parents still have a 56k connection ?
photoshop multiply mode ?

Kewop Decam · Dec 2010

those images are huge

DrunkShaman · Dec 2010

Fix't to half res of the original

Two Listen · Dec 2010

Holy crap those images are big. Nearly 4k pixels width/height for images sometimes 50% white space that's not in use?

Presentation is sometimes half the battle my friend. Shrink these things down to ~800 pixels across and you'll be a lot better off for what you're trying to show. You could easily crop out a majority of that empty whiteness.

Concerning the art itself, I suppose there's some things you could nitpick but it gets your idea across well enough. But, it is just some (relatively simple) drawings of seemingly one (relatively simply designed) girl. What are you wanting, exactly? Comments on the concept design? On its accuracy, or technical skill level?

There's not really much to say other than keep studying. And - while you're doing that, don't compare yourself to other people your age, or other people with your experience. Compare yourself to the people you'd be competing against in the industry.

The best way to learn is to take your stuff, put it up side-by-side with art of the best people you know of, and really think to yourself, "Ok, now what's different, why, and what can I try to get closer to that?"

DrunkShaman · Dec 2010

I'll try to put them in one image all together and see if it makes a huge diff. Personally agree with comparing the art with the one pros have made but I am not at that level you see (according to my art level) I'd be better off comparing the one's own arts by putting it side by side and compare it with the previous one to see what improvement I have made. The critic I require is regarding the props, tips about how to about how to make it a bit more worthy is what you already posted. Thank you for that.

EDIT: Damn!! They are still too big......I guess I'll edit it through the paint tool before posting it here again.

Next time.

mparis · Dec 2010

Image res aside a quick glance gives me these impressions:

I like the sketches and especially your full poses a little ways down. Having action shots helps show a lot of the characters personality.

In the third image down from the top you need to work out the egg shape of the head before adding the hair. It looks like you tried to draw the hair at the same time you were figuring out head proportions resulting in an incorrectly shaped head. Start with simple shapes and work into the details. Good proportions go a long way towards selling a drawing.

In your last image the first image from the left also has proportion problems. Even if the hand was closer to the viewer it wouldn't be that big in relation to the rest of her body. Also in that same image, the chest area is starting to become borderline too big/unrealistic to make sense in relation to the rest of her body size.

In general you need to block in the proportions more before moving onto the curves.

DrunkShaman · Dec 2010

This was made in like 30-45 mins to show you guys my approach to the final piece. This is what I follow for my female figure arts. Or character figure arts in general.

Though I assume it still indicates that I have to work on my props. If anyone knows a good website (do not ask me to google it because there are many ways and I've gone through googling them) if anyone knows any good ones, please post.

DrunkShaman · Dec 2010

Here is another rough piece.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7401935/Proj_1_Female/femaleFigurePractic3_2.jpg

Rockley Bonner · Dec 2010

I seen nothing realy majorly wrong with any of this. strycture porportion and anatomy are ok and the overal feel of your skills so far is OK.

Ok, is not good enough in the arts industry.

have you done anything that you have pushed yourself on? Sketches are all well and good but for every 10-20 sketches you do you should push yourself and obsess over one piece.

haikai · Dec 2010

Wall of text feedback:

Draw more from life and references. This isn't to say that you shouldn't draw what you like, but it will help you draw what you like better. It seems like you're trying to draw these poses from your imagination, but are lacking the experience to do it sufficiently. If you can look at your work objectively and feel that there is something "off" then that feeling is probably magnified for others (or at least you should presume so in the interest of striving to get better).

It's great that you're trying to break down the poses and think of how things are structured. However if the initial gesture is off then that awkwardness will manifest itself in the end regardless of how polished you make it. Many of your poses are unbalanced or create unappealing silhouettes. Take a look at some nice poses and reason out why they work. You rarely want to have entire limbs hidden behind the body, for instance. The body is pliable and has weight that is constantly being shifted. What we do in one part of our bodies affects almost every other part. There are twists and curves and the counterpoint to all of those everywhere. All of these factors contribute to a natural pose.

First and foremost you should think of what you're doing as art. Are you merely trying to trace something you see in your head or are your marks a result of careful consideration? You're in control of what you want to show or hide the viewer. Those decisions should be made to make the piece stronger, and not just show off the parts you like to draw or hide the parts that are difficult.

At the moment it looks like your sketches are lacking vitality and feeling. Part of why art is so engaging is that it's an interactive and decision making process. You're representing a distilled version of something that can potentially be more provocative than the real thing in some ways. It may sound ridiculous, but really try to "feel" each stroke. There's a lot of different things that a line can represent and many ways to create that line. A good drawing is basically just a bunch of well-placed lines, but there is a lot that goes into figuring out how to place them.

You should think of your figure as a 3d shape. Even though you're only drawing the outlines there is a depth that can be conveyed. For now, perhaps do more with shading and supplement that with linework later.

I think the legging things your character has is not doing you any favors. It covers too much of what's going on down at the ankles, and half the time it looks like you're drawing around them instead of integrating them naturally.

You're oversimplifying certain parts of the body like the feet/shoes and joints that are really flattening the image out. There's a saying that if you don't really know what it looks like then you don't draw it, and it's showing in how you handle the knees and other complex areas. Even areas that don't appear complex at first can use more detail such as the curve of the hair or the head. A simple curved line can really deaden the form because it describes so little. There are subtle ways you can add interest and depth by altering the curve such as making it curved then straight or the other way around. Again, good reference and understanding of the true shape of things helps a lot. Without that knowledge you're always going to be oversimplifying.

A lot of this can be addressed simply by drawing more. Your lines appear ginger and unpracticed, and should improve with more mileage. I hope some of this helps.

DrunkShaman · Dec 2010

haikai wrote: »

Wall of text feedback:

Draw more from life and references. This isn't to say that you shouldn't draw what you like, but it will help you draw what you like better. It seems like you're trying to draw these poses from your imagination, but are lacking the experience to do it sufficiently. If you can look at your work objectively and feel that there is something "off" then that feeling is probably magnified for others (or at least you should presume so in the interest of striving to get better).

It's great that you're trying to break down the poses and think of how things are structured. However if the initial gesture is off then that awkwardness will manifest itself in the end regardless of how polished you make it. Many of your poses are unbalanced or create unappealing silhouettes. Take a look at some nice poses and reason out why they work. You rarely want to have entire limbs hidden behind the body, for instance. The body is pliable and has weight that is constantly being shifted. What we do in one part of our bodies affects almost every other part. There are twists and curves and the counterpoint to all of those everywhere. All of these factors contribute to a natural pose.

First and foremost you should think of what you're doing as art. Are you merely trying to trace something you see in your head or are your marks a result of careful consideration? You're in control of what you want to show or hide the viewer. Those decisions should be made to make the piece stronger, and not just show off the parts you like to draw or hide the parts that are difficult.

At the moment it looks like your sketches are lacking vitality and feeling. Part of why art is so engaging is that it's an interactive and decision making process. You're representing a distilled version of something that can potentially be more provocative than the real thing in some ways. It may sound ridiculous, but really try to "feel" each stroke. There's a lot of different things that a line can represent and many ways to create that line. A good drawing is basically just a bunch of well-placed lines, but there is a lot that goes into figuring out how to place them.

You should think of your figure as a 3d shape. Even though you're only drawing the outlines there is a depth that can be conveyed. For now, perhaps do more with shading and supplement that with linework later.

I think the legging things your character has is not doing you any favors. It covers too much of what's going on down at the ankles, and half the time it looks like you're drawing around them instead of integrating them naturally.

You're oversimplifying certain parts of the body like the feet/shoes and joints that are really flattening the image out. There's a saying that if you don't really know what it looks like then you don't draw it, and it's showing in how you handle the knees and other complex areas. Even areas that don't appear complex at first can use more detail such as the curve of the hair or the head. A simple curved line can really deaden the form because it describes so little. There are subtle ways you can add interest and depth by altering the curve such as making it curved then straight or the other way around. Again, good reference and understanding of the true shape of things helps a lot. Without that knowledge you're always going to be oversimplifying.

A lot of this can be addressed simply by drawing more. Your lines appear ginger and unpracticed, and should improve with more mileage. I hope some of this helps.

Sorry to post again without a new piece, but I want to clear this out so you wont think that this is what I want to be for the rest of my life.

I wanted to have this in a work flow. I've practiced this for about 6 months now and settled down to one style of female figure because I want to move on other aspects of what I want to model and draw them out such as scene(Environment), other characters, Equipment, Weapons, Mob, etc. This is practically one piece of the entire project I want to do.

Actually your posts help alot, and off PC friends who are also in the 3d arts say that my art is decent but it isnt going to get me anywhere. I know there is a hell lot of improvisation that can be done through out the sketch(s) if I take my time to draw them out and judge em.

In other words, I thought this was just a self concept drawing with no desire of submitting to 3d modeler(s) and I thought it would do the trick. So I thought this would do the job as a ref for 3d modeling without pushing any improvised stunt on it.

After month of just sketching I realized that I am making the same mistake over and over without a hint of support made me post here and on GA (and it was also a friend who forced me to do so <.<).

Because the stuff you people tell me is what I already know. What to do about it is what I am still trying to figure out.

Thank you for the input. Whenever I read such comments I go back to drawing board, scrap the previous one out and draw a new one from scratch, which I will be doing today as well.

mparis · Dec 2010

You should check out the Polycount Wiki on character art:

http://wiki.polycount.com/CategoryReferenceAnatomy

There's some great material in there that will help.

I definitely agree with haikai, drawing from reference first will help you draw from imagination more effectively later. Try to combine knowledge of human anatomy to the images your referencing, break down the forms and see how the textbook anatomy plays out on a real life model. I think this will really help it stick in your head, and the more you do it the better you'll get.

All our teachers say over and over is the more you practice the better you'll be. They've been drawing for years and they still find ways to grow. Patience is important too

Patience + Good reference

Just work first on getting solid proportions down, then move on to shading and rendering.

DrunkShaman · Dec 2010

Thanks mparis

Will definitely use reference in my next part of this project...

Quick question though, does anyone even bothers to ink the sketch out before painting? (this is directed only to the people who use Wacom Intuos 4 not the ones with cintiq)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7401935/Proj_1_Female/SampleDoodle1.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7401935/Proj_1_Female/SampleDoodle2.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7401935/Proj_1_Female/SampleDoodle3.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7401935/Proj_1_Female/SampleDoodle4.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7401935/Proj_1_Female/SampleDoodle5.jpg

EDIT: I am going to call this piece IT since I found this doodle to be the proper one. I will however work on it to attempt to make it a bit appealing to the viewers. Yes I do agree that it takes a bit longer time to work things out if you are just working out of your head and not looking at the ref. Reason being. Not many people who draw comic art actually look at the ref. They either have the ability to create art out of imagination or they write it out in detail about how they want their character(s) to look like. Or maybe I have majority mistaken.

Besides, there are many art thefts going on so I would hate it if I use a ref image, someone claims that I'd be cheating and me ending up being a simple target of the black list of all major CG and 2d art communities.

The reason I asked if anyone bothers to ink their arts is because I've seen many who've drawn out and cleaning their rough line work and/or painting over it. The extra step of Inking (refine line work on a new layer) just doesnt seem to make sense unless you own a cintiq. =\

doeseph · Dec 2010

You're actually losing a great deal in Doodle 5 by removing the thicker lines and creases shown in Doodle4. Shading makes the difference between a flat image and an image with depth, and while Doodle4 doesn't appear to have intentional shading, the thicker lines in certain areas give the appearance of it.

Don't be afraid to have "messy" line work either, it doesn't need to be perfect before moving on to adding color, shadows, and highlights. You're essentially just blocking out what you want in the image, using it as a guide, and throwing everything on top. The thicker lines do more for you in this case.

And don't be afraid to make mistakes. The faster you make mistakes, the quicker you'll learn. If you spend all your time trying NOT to make mistakes, you're just taking longer to get to the exact same place had you just made the mistake.

DrunkShaman · Dec 2010

*Removed*

Ged · Dec 2010

honestly the greatest help Ive ever had with drawing has come from just studying anatomy and masters works while trying to copy them. So get out some michelangelo eg http://faculty.evansville.edu/rl29/art105/img/michelangelo_libyan.jpg or any artist you consider knows there stuff and start trying to recreate it, you will find that your way of drawing lines might not work so you adapt, you may find that there are muscles or bones where you didnt expect...learn from this.

It sounds like a cop-out when people say "use reference" or "learn more anatomy" but its not, just do it, that is really how simple this is, dont make excuses.

DrunkShaman · Dec 2010

skayne wrote: »

I'll be honest I have no idea what you are asking for here. Your approach confuses me. If I try and understand correctly you say that you know the problems but just don't feel like making the steps to fix them and improve?

I'm not try to be an ass or anything I swear I'm just a little bit confused as to what you are asking for. I'll hold back critique until I know exactly what kind you are looking for.

uhh...Read the first post of this thread my good sir.

I think I made it clear that the reason to make this thread and post is because I've been making same mistakes over and over. I needed help. I've seen it by myself that I've made a fraction worth of progress in a piece I posted the last.

Now that I see that I am getting on the "just about right" track for my self concept art work flow, I asked further questions such as, do you guys make a refine your sketch before painting it.

I cant make it any simple then that. If that confuses you or my work flow confuses you, then I apologize, but I cant help you.

@Ged: Yes you are right about studying the anatomy and using ref images do come handy in terms of supporting your idea and giving you a full view of it as you draw.

EDIT: Apologies if I have offended anyone. I am actually stressed out over this one part of the main project and this is the first time I have taken it seriously I believe. It is taking me more time then I anticipated.

ninjatofu · Dec 2010

One note about reference. If you're really worried about art theft/cheating, I would suggest that you go shoot your own reference if at all possible. That way, you aren't limited to what reference images you can find from whatever stock photo sites you may be using and you can have the model (female friend/relative) you're shooting pose the way you want. If that's not an option, shoot yourself, and then use other images to supplement it. The thing about reference is that you shouldn't be outright copying the pose. Just use it to figure out what needs to go where to make it look right.

glottis8 · Dec 2010

I agree with Skayne, your work lacks flow. It is really a basic principle to have a line that flows through your whole character pose, that gives action and pose a more dynamic look. That website he linked you to have some great tips and examples of this.

Do study anatomy, learn your muscles and overall your proportions. That should bump your work into a better level.

DrunkShaman · Dec 2010

skayne wrote: »

It's just that when you say things like

"After month of just sketching I realized that I am making the same mistake over and over without a hint of support made me post here and on GA (and it was also a friend who forced me to do so <.<).

Because the stuff you people tell me is what I already know. What to do about it is what I am still trying to figure out."

If what we are telling you is what you already know then why should I bother telling you anything? Sorry I guess that's where my confusion came in. You asked for critique but when you got it you said, "yeah well I know that but I don't know what to do about it".

You have to study anatomy. There will never be a way around it. If you want to produce a believable figure than you have to have some kind of understanding. Drawing from life helps. Doing gestures of human figures helps. If you can't find a way to take figure classes than go buy a Bridgman book like this: http://www.amazon.com/Bridgmans-Complete-Guide-Drawing-Life/dp/1402766785/ref=pd_sim_b_5 and practice. Copy the drawings over and over to gain a better understanding of form and anatomy.

Aside from that if I'm going to critique the drawing itself well it's flat. Your line quality is stale and doesn't help suggest form at all. In your latest doodle there is some difference in line but not much. I'd have to say that your biggest problem is the flattening of the form. It looks over simplified and really lacks structure.

On top of it all I'd say the character is a bit generic. Things appear to have been drawn as you think they look instead of how they actually look (this goes back to understanding anatomy). Her pose is awkward and I really get no sense of who she is, what she does, where she came from or where she is going.

If you are intent on drawing with some style then you have to look at http://babelab.blogspot.com/?zx=2d4232d72b50121 . Keep in mind that is NOT SAFE FOR WORK. It may look like a bunch of nude drawings but seriously look through it and look at the breakdowns he does on later pages. Look at his line work and how he uses it to imply form and mass.

I hope this all doesn't sound too harsh. I honestly think that taking these steps would help you improve significantly. I'm not directing this next comment at you but the biggest problem I see when people are struggling with improving is that for some reason they refuse to take the necessary steps to get better. At least I feel that some of these steps are necessary.

Good luck.

Thanks....I'll study human anatomy (female anatomy) and re-sketch it by tonight. I dont know how drawing from life will help me at this level.

Two Listen · Dec 2010

Nitewalkr wrote: »

I dont know how drawing from life will help me at this level.

...?

Even if you're not drawing an exact copy from life, utilizing life and references in your work will help you at ANY level. You're never too good or too bad for life.

Jessica Dinh · Dec 2010

Hmm, if you wanted to specialize in vehicles or environments or something, I would maybe see why you think you don't need to draw from life (but even then..). However, you are most interested in drawing characters, so you DEFINITELY would benefit from drawing figures from life! There is a sense of energy in the living figure that does not exist in any drawing of a figure you might copy - it will help you with your gestures, your form, your proportions - everything!! Take a few figure classes, really, and you will see the difference. Good luck!

Ged · Dec 2010

Nitewalkr wrote: »

Thanks....I'll study human anatomy (female anatomy) and re-sketch it by tonight. I dont know how drawing from life will help me at this level.

I dont understand? after his comment you are going to go off and master female anatomy and re-sketch your idea? Maybe it isnt clear from the suggestions people are giving you but these things : "anatomy", "line quality" ,"perspective" etc are disciplines...you practice them all your life, its like learning a musical instrument, it can take years even for gifted people before they go from "that looks ok" to "thats a friggin cool female character!".

so re-sketching it tonight probably isnt going to make it suddenly awesome but studying anatomy before sketching it is a step in the right direction.

DrunkShaman · Dec 2010

I have rushed in to posting which may have sent the message out that I will learn every aspect of the human anatomy in one night. I apologize, I mean to say that I will use that as a ref to help myself getting the sketch done and compare with the previous. Its impossible to learn the entire anatomy in one night bro.

Jezz sorry.

Over all I do agree that it takes years of practice depending on your pace of learning the material and use of reference. (or creating your own proper refs and using them for your 3d modeling)

The reason for me to post and share previous sketch to the recent one repeating the process here is because I also wanted to make sure that I am getting it right. So far according to you guys I am getting OK, or just right. Nothing more then that. I'll post another piece I'll sketch tonight and compare to see if I have made any progress (any at all).

Thanks for help everyone.

DrunkShaman · Dec 2010

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7401935/Proj_1_Female/SampleDoodle6.jpg

Okay..So I compared alot with doodle 5 before posting here. This is still rough line work with the rough shadow work and curls work to be done. But this is what I got so far..

EDIT: Maybe I should do the front pose for better understanding =\

StefanH · Dec 2010

tbh i can see you improviing. Just dont take this too seriously. Its all about practise. just practise, practise.
Cheesy saying: art is 1% inspiration and 99% transpiration.

What would help you more is doing studies though. not drawing more or less the same female character over and over again.

The folds in the crotch area look painful. As if someting gets sucked into there into a big black hole

keep it up. I see progress.

DrunkShaman · Dec 2010

StefanH wrote: »

tbh i can see you improviing. Just dont take this too seriously. Its all about practise. just practise, practise.
Cheesy saying: art is 1% inspiration and 99% transpiration.

What would help you more is doing studies though. not drawing more or less the same female character over and over again.

The folds in the crotch area look painful. As if someting gets sucked into there into a big black hole

keep it up. I see progress.

hahahahhahahah you are right, seriously it does look like that. I made folds around it but then I thought people may think of her as a shemale. -.-

Anyways, I am drawing this over and over because for one this is one part of the main project that I am working on. This concept is also overly used by other artists so I dont see any harm in keep drawing the same girl for my thing. I do get this alot and I know it is kinda lame to stick to one sketch and draw it over and over again until you finally get it right.

But hay, once I get this right, I'll probably get the others right as well after a good amount of feedback and learning.

Jessica Dinh · Dec 2010

Yep, it's definitely good to stick to something and persevere, but every once in awhile take breaks from this character and do some other studies. When you go back to her you will have learned something new, feel refreshed, and progress much faster. Overall studies will help the flow of your project, not slow it down

DrunkShaman · Dec 2010

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7401935/Proj_1_Female/AnotherDoodle.jpg

Kay I just wanna know if this will pass for modeling ref? Because I seriously want to get the fuck on to the modeling phase of it.

Thanks.

I am not caring for this to pass for "Game Industry" at the moment because I am not scoping for that, so please do not give me a biased crit that you like it or do not like it or " oh I has people at teh place I work at do stuff 10 times better then that so please go study some more and create cuz you suck right now"

I just want to know if this is GOOD ENOUGH to have it as a Modeling or Sculpting ref. Thanks.

pior · Dec 2010

Just think about it. Drawing from life teaches you the forms and shapes of the human body, and how light behaves too. (Its not the only way to learn, but it's very useful)

Once those are engraved in your brain, you'll find ways to synthesize them in your own personal way through sketches. Drawing the same sketch over and over again will not make it better. Understanding the structure of the body underneath, the rules driving it (tension/extension) is the framework that you need. Once you understand it you can start doing comparaisons with other masterful artists (Joe Mad, Mike Mignolia, Frazetta, the range is wide!!) and see how and why they simplified things in their own way.

At the moment one can tell that you mostly use contours, but some structural elements are there (I can see the collarbones and the arch of the ribcage). Now once you start drawing from live models, you'll get a better understanding of those things, and many others. And thanks to lighting study you'll be able to know when to draw those in, and when not to. The more structure your sketches have, the easier they will be to model!

Also, drawing from the model is super motivating, and constitutes a great warmup exercise. After 2 hours of life drawing, once you get home you really feel like kicking ass and drawing even more

Grab David Finch's Gnomons, they are awesome.

(to bounce off LowOdors suggestions below : in concept art, mood boards are as important as the piece of concept art itself. Gather pictures showing the gear shell be wearing/using AND examples of the style she is supposed to be translated too. Gears of War ? FinalFantasy XII ? Viewtiful Joe ? Uncharted ? All these things are instrumental in good concept art. Since your sketches are not solid enough yet to convey these things, you have to find other ways to explain them.)

low odor · Dec 2010

"I just want to know if this is GOOD ENOUGH to have it as a Modeling or Sculpting ref. Thanks"

that's pretty much up to you,man. Depends on what you need as a 3d artist to translate this to 3d. Usually the tighter the concept, the less guess work you have to do

There is nothing super elaborate about the character. I would find some ref of a woman with the same general proportions (http://www.3d.sk or something) and use that as your anatomy ref. The costume should not be that hard to find either...look up tube top, spandex, knee high boots. The hair.. Jennifer Aniston maybe. In any case, that's what I would do if someone handed me this concept and asked me to turn it into a 3d piece

DrunkShaman · Dec 2010

Well I guess. Reason I asked is because I know that I have to be pro in this phase of things but there are other phases after that. Such as, Modeling, Texturing, animation, etc etc I just dont want to hover over this phase for a long time.

I know in time I'll probably be good with everything.

pior · Dec 2010

Show us your moodboard!

DrunkShaman · Jan 2011

mood board!? xD

I havent gotten that pro to have one sir. I thought I'd make a simple sketch out before moving any further.

so now I've made choices between 2.

Recent Drawing:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7401935/Proj_1_Female/AnotherDooodle3.jpg

Previous Drawing:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7401935/Proj_1_Female/SampleDoodle6.jpg

arrangemonk · Jan 2011

your Alice obsession is getting you nowhere.
mila jojowich isnt even cute

Stromberg90 · Jan 2011

Ah... sometimes i just wonder why someone wont listen, they have told you plenty of times what you got todo.

What i am wondering is, do you wont to focus on 2D or 3D, since you say something like this "I just want to know if this is GOOD ENOUGH to have it as a Modeling or Sculpting ref. Thanks"

As low odor said, it's up to you, we aint gonna make the character, so it dosnt matter for us if you use it as refrence in it's current state.

DrunkShaman · Jan 2011

I'd answer that but then again I had many people lecturing me about my main goal(s).

@arrangemonk: It isnt Alice anymore man check the progress again. She came out to be entirely different. o.o Now I am just hoping to have a decent schedule of my work so I can perfect it. I know it is said many times that I should use ref images and study a bit of human anatomy, but right now I just want to have a decent work flow that gets me started on the 2d sketching and ends me up on Texturing and possible rigging. You and few other ppl've known that for sometime now.

I know its not a pro sketch not even near one. But I heared few people saying that one may not need a sketch at all to start in 3d. So I thought not to stress over this and just do a sketch that I can understand and in 3d ofcourse you get to fix many things you leave out in 2d concept sketch. I need to be good in entire set of things before I start studying coding.

EDIT: "mila jojowich isnt even cute" but shez teh cute zombie killah xD

Revel · Jan 2011

Whoa..wait up buddy..you're going on too fast! First you want to be able to do a good concept character artist...then you want to make a good 3d model out of the concept that you draw previously...then you want to animate it........and even coding lol so basicly you want to create a fully functional game all by your self??

I just gonna point out a few things that you may (or may not) know already.
- If you want to good at drawing, grab a real life photo and try to draw it and understand the topology/ conture/ muscle structure/ anatomy of the real human (it helps when you creating the 3d model).
- If you want to good at 3d modeling, there's a lot of concept art out there that you can try model it (IF you haven't draw any good concept art yet..), most of the artist if you ask them nicely will be more than happy if you want to reproduce their concept art into 3d.
- If you want to good at coding....well......good luck, cus it's a totally different world.

Trust me, if you rush everything in the first place, you're not gonna cut short the whole learning process, but instead make it longer, cus you gonna face a lot of trouble later on. Be able to focus is the key here, take one step at a time. Start with the skill set that you interest the most (most..means only 1 not all) and polish it as far as you can and being GOOD ENOUGH is not a choise. Seriously, when you think it's only GOOD ENOUGH it means bad.

_Revel

makecg · Jan 2011

Hey Nitewalkr, how's it going man ! ?

Keep going dude, maybe study some anatomy and simple shape objects. and advance more from there.

keep me updated I look forward to your progress.

DrunkShaman · Jan 2011

Revel wrote: »

Whoa..wait up buddy..you're going on too fast! First you want to be able to do a good concept character artist...then you want to make a good 3d model out of the concept that you draw previously...then you want to animate it........and even coding lol so basicly you want to create a fully functional game all by your self??

I just gonna point out a few things that you may (or may not) know already.
- If you want to good at drawing, grab a real life photo and try to draw it and understand the topology/ conture/ muscle structure/ anatomy of the real human (it helps when you creating the 3d model).
- If you want to good at 3d modeling, there's a lot of concept art out there that you can try model it (IF you haven't draw any good concept art yet..), most of the artist if you ask them nicely will be more than happy if you want to reproduce their concept art into 3d.
- If you want to good at coding....well......good luck, cus it's a totally different world.

Trust me, if you rush everything in the first place, you're not gonna cut short the whole learning process, but instead make it longer, cus you gonna face a lot of trouble later on. Be able to focus is the key here, take one step at a time. Start with the skill set that you interest the most (most..means only 1 not all) and polish it as far as you can and being GOOD ENOUGH is not a choise. Seriously, when you think it's only GOOD ENOUGH it means bad.

_Revel

What do you mean when you say "GOOD ENOUGH for me to get the 3d modeling going"

And trust me its not as hard as you think at first. Because you are learning the tools still and coding side of things. Once you are good with that then you can improve your 3d side of things or 2d rather. I heard this alot that I wont be able to grasp everything that I need to learn for my goal. But hay every skill starts with the basic and gets involved in your life routine. So why not this one. If it was just UDK I wouldnt really rush things around because to me UDK is simple enough to understand but demands more then just raw coding the game template(s) for your work.

Bottom line; if you come to think of it as a huge load that one wants to swallow all at once, you have to think otherwise. The reason I am still on this 2d side of things is I want to get it right not impressive nor I want this one to be passed on for some Game Studio at the moment.

I'll start on 3d part of it today and see if it changes. Thats what I really wanna do 3d modeling, texturing, TnL(which is done in coding or exported via any 3d modeling tool if you do not wish to), and raw coding to understand how this entire game studio thing works. So that when I am starting out officially, I wont have to beg anyone to draw stuff for me or make stuff for me for the first fiscal year.

Makecg: You are never around to see my progress >.< but thanks for input.

Stromberg90 · Jan 2011

o.O

I just dont know what to say.
But i am wondering if you have everything so well planned out and are not out to impress anyone, then why the hell do you post here if you dont want any help?

So you are here to tell us that learning everything in a full game dev pipeline is easy?
Will see about that....

Revel · Jan 2011

Dude, so you're saying that making game is a piece of cake?..making 3d models and textures and rig and coding and everything is doable with only yourself? UDK with all the properties and kismet and physics and particles are simple enough to understand?...unless you are a super genius then sorry I don't trust you with that.

Have you ever work in one of the game studio before? did you know that they have teams of specialize people working on characters, environments, shaders separately and the programmer combine them all? and do you ever wondering whats the purpose of them forming the specialize team working of certain aspects of the game?

I'm saying that whenever you finish a piece of work and think it's "good enough", actually it's not enough. I don't know about how you set your own standard regarding your own work, but for me "good enough" means bad/ unfinished/ getting tired of doing things/ a point that stop you do great stuff/ and other pessimistic mind state. But it's not like you have to work on the same piece everyday to reach Makkon's standard or any other great 2d artist here, no..like I said before, learning takes process and there is no shortcut of doing it.

Finishing a work with only "good enough" standard and a "great" standard has a very different satisfaction. Like in college, which one you prefer get D and pass the subject or A and pass the sbuject?..well it's very obvious that you want the second option. Same here, if every time you finish a work and really feels great and proud about it (no matter what people say) it's always make the next piece better than the previous one. No one want to step backward right, so being great in the previous stage will help you raise your standard...but good enough...I'm sorry my friend not gonna take you anywhere (other then your own little world of ego). And the last tips for you in this long post is; do not underestimate things, ever.

I'm not here trying being an ass or whatever..it's just.....well.....funny.

Question; what is the point for you making things not to impress people?

//EDIT: if you don't trust me with the "don't start the 3d without a solid 2d concept", then go ahead and make the 3d from your current state of concept. Then prove me wrong that you can finish it smoothly without facing any problem like deciding silhouette/ how's the look of her from the back/ color mood and combination/ personality when coming to posing stage and such.

_Revel

glottis8 · Jan 2011

Some people just don't like to have their work critiqued. All we are trying to do is help. But hey, its his loss. I guess some people have to find out the hard way that making art is a process. One that we have to polish ourselves by really looking. Looking at other peoples work, how they work some problems that you might face, and learn from their experience. I know that i am always trying to share my experience so that people don't get stuck... if i get stuck, i ask for help. There is nothing wrong with asking, i mean.. how else would we learn if we don't ask.

I guess it's one thing to ask for help and follow the advice and then asking for help and turning down every single piece of feedback that is given to you.

It's his choice tho... so we do this in good faith and we are trying to be a community of artists that try to really attain new standards and grow in what we do. Maybe one day he'll understand that. So far, he is just burning bridges by trying to say that things are easy to do, and that he wants to move to new territory.

"And trust me its not as hard as you think at first. Because you are learning the tools still and coding side of things. Once you are good with that then you can improve your 3d side of things or 2d rather. I heard this alot that I wont be able to grasp everything that I need to learn for my goal. But hay every skill starts with the basic and gets involved in your life routine. So why not this one. If it was just UDK I wouldnt really rush things around because to me UDK is simple enough to understand but demands more then just raw coding the game template(s) for your work."

You would think you would rather be good at something first, and then move on to something else. Maybe he is still trying to figure out what side of the work he is trying to focus on... or maybe he has no idea. o_O who knows?

DrunkShaman · Jan 2011

This may be the best time to tell you guys that I have taken and been taking your crits well. If you look at the first sketch and the last sketch and compare them you will simply see the difference.

I am just not stressing over them. =\

EDIT: Also it maybe the best time to tell you guys that I DONT think that the process of going from 2d concept art to 3d to animation and finally coding is a piece of cake and I know it is by far a higher level challenging goal, but it is doable. Once it is done and fully grasped then it is time to improve.

In other words; I am not disagreeing with anyone of you. I know that my art is crap and it wouldnt've improved from worst to ok or good enough if it wasnt for your crits. But I am not backing out from this goal. It seems easier to me to learn everything in that order. Perfecting it is the real job.

EDIT2: Answer: The process of making things not to impress people is to learn them in a ways that best fits your needs. Once you have learned them then impressing others with your work wont be a hassle to you.

EDIT3: I know for one that art isnt easy and its never perfect. It is a challenging job itself.

EDIT4: I already stated my idea of what I really want to do. See the thing is right now no one will give a damn to work with me on my project(s) that are roughly lined out so I planned on learning everything regardless of its level of difficulty. So that later on when I start posting the entire projects then just one doodle at a time people would be interested in them and possibly start requesting to join.

I cant put this in any simple words then this.

Thanks for the crits.

DrunkShaman · Jan 2011

skayne wrote: »

To be honest with you I don't see a difference at all.

If anything all you've done is tighten up even more. You call these sketches yet they don't feel like sketches. It's as if you are trying to make finished drawings.

If there is improvement it's pretty negligible. Not trying to kick you while you're down or anything. And I guess it might feel like everyone's attacking you but really, there isn't as much improvement as you may think.

I'm not going to go in and say why because there are like 20 posts above that you can use to see why.

sigh*....yes I know but the proportions are at the right place there are no sticks coming out of the "sketch" which was pretty much a progess for me.
I am not going to go over and explain my exact want here. I am just going to post another one to get more input and follow up on the crits I got in last 20 posts.

Thanks.

tda · Jan 2011

In reading this thread what strikes me foremost is that you seem incredibly caught up on techniques and methods for doing things, as if knowing this stuff will make you better at art. It won't.

I was like this too when i was starting out. I used to dissect pictures and imagine what brushes people used and the order they painted their layers and stuff. It was totally absurd and it took me a while to realise where i was going wrong, but i (and everyone else) are laying it down here for you. Technique means nothing without understanding of the fundamental core skills, form, lighting, perspective, anatomy and so forth.

The one thing to understand above all else is that your art, in any form, improves with repetition only. This is the core of any learning activity, musical instruments, maths, foreign languages, whatever. You need to hammer home information repeatedly in a specific way before your brain will remember it properly. A good example would be to take a human hand, for example. You see these every day for hours and hours, but do you really understand the the form, the anatomy?

Sit down and draw an anatomically correct hand from your mind, can you? If the answer is no, learning how to do crisp lineart will not teach you this. Drawing countless character designs or modelling refs from your head won't teach you either, and trying to model one in 3D will only result in failure and frustration. To learn how a hand is constructed you need to look at a real one, study it, copy it, figure out how the anatomy works and repeat ad nauseam. Slowly you'll learn from your mistakes, your brain will remember and next time you conjure a hand in your mind, it will maybe be slightly closer to what a real one is. This is the only way to learn anything.

there are no sticks coming out of the "sketch" which was pretty much a progess for me

Case in point right here. This isn't your art getting better, you just spent longer tightening up your linework, the pictures are almost identical save for that.

I get the feeling this whole "i want to learn a pipeline" thing is stemming from this idea about technique/style over skill. While learning a pipeline properly is an admirable pursuit, it's wholly unecessary to become better at art.

What you ought to do is evaluate what you want to do at this point. If you want to learn the pipeline i'd recommend doing it with a spinning cube or an animated door, Something simple and fast. If you want to get better at art, and make a character model, you need to get refs, study anatomy and learn how forms of the body are made. Apply these studies and refs to your own original works, and you will see your work skyrocket in quality.

Also something that is important to note. If you don't understand anatomy on a 2D level, you won't be able to apply it on a 3D level. This isn't to say you need to be a smokin hot 2D artist to be able to make 3D, but the fundamental knowledge that allows your 2D technique to look awesome is the same knowledge that will make your 3D work look awesome. It's all the same core stuff.

It's good that you seem motivated to move forward, but don't try and move too fast. Also don't try and do everything at once or you'll probably end up burning out, and then you'll have achieved nothing.

Hazardous · Jan 2011

Hey Nitewalkr,

I'm going to keep it short:

If what the good folks here are saying is difficult for you to put into practice just yet, loosen up, let go of your goals and achievements and simply 'just draw' for a while.

Dont worry about the subject, or whether you are doing good or bad.

http://www.posemaniacs.com/?pagename=thirtysecond

Think of these human poses as nothing but blobs, monsters, pieces of flesh with no shape at all. That way who cares if what you draw doesnt look like a leg ? ITS A MONSTER WITH DEFORMED LEGS! thats how its supposed to be!!

Just try to imitate what you see, as quickly as you can with quick line drawings.

Start by doing 10 min of 30 sec gestures, and try to get as much of the blob on paper as you possibly can, when 10 min is up, you should have 20 monsters! Set it to 60 sec and do 20 min worth, at the end you should have 40 monsters!!!

I bet if you post the results from this half an hour 'session' each day and do this for 1 week - youll make some discoveries and advancements

Again dont worry about the quality at all - just draw.

Post your results from each day!! Come on man!!

XenoKratios · Jan 2011

Don't quit big guy, your getting better everyday! You might not see it but you are, muscle memory is getting better and all that good stuff.

Here's another website, I like it better than posemaniacs:
http://pixelovely.com/tools/gesture.html

Pimp my Arts!

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