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IStonia's Avatar
Old (#1)
VoidWorld Forums:

Hi guys

I have recently released a 3d modeling and animation tool. It has no plug-in and script features and the hot-keys can not be customized. But It has intuitive interface and the tools are plenty. Modeling, retopogizing, uv unwraping, normal map baking, vertex coloring, 3D texture painting, skeleton animating etc. Compare to other modeling applications, some of the tools could be new or improved versions to provide more possibilities. For example

The polygon Extrude tool allows creating extrusions manually along cursor directions or a spline.
The Hinge tool has more options.
The Lathe and Slide tool can utilize a number of splines to create meshes with more complex shapes.
The uv Pelt tool automatically selects the longest border as the pulling border when the uv island to be pulled has holes.
The uv Symmetry tool can perform symmetry operation either within one uv island or btw two islands.
The edge Connect tool provides a flexible way to create loop edges.

You are welcom to check it out. Feed backs, criticisms and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Slide Tool Video

Bevel Tool Video

Last edited by IStonia; 10-10-2011 at 03:02 AM..
Offline , polygon, 681 Posts, Join Date Jun 2010, Location New Zealand  
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r_fletch_r's Avatar
Old (#2)
why not make some videos showing your features. Its a lot more persuasive to visual people to see it happen
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IStonia's Avatar
Old (#3)
Thanks r_fletch_r. I have though about that, but just don't know how to do it at the moment. May be making some gif images is easier, I'll try that.
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kodde's Avatar
Old (#4)
You guys are talentless!

Yeah videos would be nice.
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elte's Avatar
Old (#5)
Man...sorry to say this but your website look so 90's

My first impression is that this software feels more like a toy.

Not much information provided (screenshot, video, feature).

If most of the features are already in the common used package, I won't bother to give it a try though.

Sorry for being honest.

Last edited by elte; 06-09-2010 at 11:37 PM..
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boyluya's Avatar
Old (#6)
I'm still talentless too. ^^

Yeah, a video showing its features would be better.
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Moosey_G's Avatar
Old (#7)
This would be great for noobies if was free, but it seems you're trying to make a buck off of people's inexperience. Are those the only features the program can do?
Autocon: I grade everything in terms of how many Skittles I award to each game. Like uncharted 2 got 184 Skittles. I also award and factor in things like color and taste of the Skittles too making it a very robust and diverse grading system.

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Vrav's Avatar
Old (#8)
I gave it a spin... it has most of the tools you'd expect, but not much usability. Feels very retro, like modeling in default 3dsmax... and a bit more buggy with slow performance on common stuff like loop/ring select. The scope is a bit grand, which is impressive, but in my opinion creates a weaker overall application: you have a lot of features, but it's difficult to tell if any stand out as exceptional; the modeling side seemed unexciting, so I didn't go into the unwrapping and animation areas of the program...

When using the various tools (including weld, extrude, bevel/etc) sometimes it freaks out and gives you a wireframe version, and other times it makes the model invisible and all you're left with is this tiny thing at the origin:

This is my opinion, but - I would recommend looking at Silo as an example of a streamlined modeler. It is a very comfortable modeling application not only because it has customizable shortcuts - the tools are context-sensitive and behave in a 'sticky' way. For example, holding the extrude hotkey with an edge selected will immediately begin an extrusion that changes with the movement of the mouse (in a straight line). With a face selected, it will extrude that face; multiple faces get the same, etc. Releasing the key applies the command. It also has an integrated tweak tool that works in most settings, on your selected geometry type with the currently selected tool (translate/rotate/scale); you simply hold down the tweak shortcut and left-click to perform operations.

Silo's primary flaw at this time is crashiness and apparent developmental abandonment. If you can create a stable application that functions as fluidly without dropping development in a crashy/buggy state, your program could potentially become very loved.

Here is a treasure trove of ideas if you truly desire to create an application people will want to use, hope it helps:

ps: the about page made me laugh thanks for that

Last edited by Vrav; 06-10-2010 at 12:29 AM..
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IStonia's Avatar
Old (#9)
Thanks for the feedbacks guys.
I am working on the video stuff now. I hope I can get it out very soon.

Hi Vrav,
I am not able to reproduce the bug you came across, can you tell me how it happened if you have a spare time.
And by the way, if you press down Alt key then middle click an edge, the whole loop will be selected. To see more options, while in edge mode and no tools is on, click menue "Help">"Show Help on Current Operation" to access the edge simple operation help file.
Thanks for the link, I can see the main point is easy and quick work flow, and different apps use different approachs.

Last edited by IStonia; 06-10-2010 at 02:47 AM..
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r_fletch_r's Avatar
Old (#10)
im with vrav on this, if you take focused critism, and implement things in a streamlined manner you could end up with a real Gem.

Silo does it so well its ridiculous. I learnt silo in no more than 30 minutes.

Last edited by r_fletch_r; 06-10-2010 at 09:03 AM..
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Calabi's Avatar
Old (#11)
Originally Posted by r_fletch_r View Post
im with vrav on this, if you take focused critism, and implement things in a streamlined manner you could end up with a real Gem.

Silo does it so well its ridiculous. I learnt silo in no more than 30 minutes.
I learnt silo in 15 minutes.

Its going to be a requirement before long for software to have no learning curve. I mean so that you dont have to look at a manual to find out what this does and how to do that.

What with ipods and that, its going to be led/provoked by consumers.
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r_fletch_r's Avatar
Old (#12)
I really cant see that working. Theres loads of room for improvement in 3D apps but people still need to know what they are working with and how they are structured.
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Calabi's Avatar
Old (#13)
Yeah, but it'll be more integrated into the workflow, kind of like the ribbon in 3ds Max.

An intelligent help system, you ask it how to do something and you get several answers.

An intelligent, tool tip system that fades after use, if your hunting around without clicking on something, then it asks you what you are looking for or brings up the tool tips.

Just my thoughts.
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Racer445's Avatar
Old (#14)
The website is seriously some web 1.0 stuff. It looks like it was made with the AOL website creator in the mid 90s. Have a look at the Nevercenter (silo) or Blender sites, you want sleek and simple like those.

You may want to consider making the program free until you have something that's actually worth being sold, something like what Ryan did with CrazyBump. You could honestly have a great tool here if you only put things in that people need without the unnecessary garbage that large software suites have.
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Xoliul's Avatar
Old (#15)
Yeah, I like the idea of having a small, streamlined modeling app. Silo used to be promising, but it got kinda buggy and i gave up after losing a few hours of work when i tried it last time.

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IStonia's Avatar
Old (#16)
I agree with you all guys and girls. I have made the programe free. The open registration code is in the Products page.

The century old website needs a makeup urgently.

Down to the sreamline modeling work flow. I need to plan it carefully. I will check out other people's ways.
But more importantly, I need you artists' advice, as you are the ones who can tell it is good or not and fresh ideas may jump out of you anytime.

Currently in my thought, tools can be grouped into two groups. the first one are those used less often and they are mode sensitve.
The second group are those most often used and they only perform simple operations like delete/extrude/loopcut/etc. They are context sesitive. The operation performed depands on the under cursor element and hotkey, and is mode independent. These tools are for vertex/edge/polygon only.
Do I get it right?

By the way, I have made two videos. They are in the first post of this thread. The pictures are very foggy, I hope you can tell what I was doing.

Calabi sounds like twice smarter. I may believe in you more than anyone else! lol
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pior's Avatar
Old (#17)
Hello there,

With multi-features tools like 3DCoat appearing recently, I see that it could be tempting to try and do the same. However this niche is already taken, and trying to compete in that field would be a huge/near impossible undertaking.

Judging from the videos it seems like your program has a few basics right (the viewport navigation does not try to reinvent the wheel, and so on)

However if you want things to catch on you need to focus on what folks like us are looking for. Wich is, efficient mesh modeling and editing tools. Thats the thing you want to work on, and get up to the level of Silo/Nendo/Mirai. If you manage to top these guys, your stuff will be a success. If not, no one would even consider it.

Things I think you need, in order to appeal to the one specific target audience around here (3d artists in need of a good, clean basemesh to sculpt on later in either ZBrush or Mud) :

- Screen mode manipulation of components
- local, parent, world and user-defined manipulator reference systems
- being able to put and orient the action center anywhere and in any direction (maya fails at this and its a pain)
- being able to convert a selection between verts, edges, faces
- loop and ring selection
- loop slide
- add loop
- connect components
- detach to shell and detach to new object
- push selected along normal direction
- thickness modifier (shell in max)
- bend, ffd, twist
- symetry mode (with and without center weld)
- weld components
- extrude
- inset
- bevel (all these 3 need a decent preview and slider or spinners)
- soft selection with curve adjustement
- flatten selected
- untangle poly (makes a perfect ngon out of an arbitrary ngon)
- straighten edge selection

After that, you could add non destructive modifiers just like max

Also, if you want your app to be a success you NEED customizable navigation scheme and custom shortcuts, available for all of the above.

Good luck!
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renderhjs's Avatar
Old (#18)
just download a trial of Silo, it has been referred to here many times and to many other developers as well. Just the way how you can customize shortcuts and how their sticky keys work is just heaven.
Modo is also a good inspiration for some Interface and interaction design.
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elte's Avatar
Old (#19)
Im using win7 x86, do I need to install net1.1 framework? isn't that outdated afaik?

I read in .net page:

Important: You cannot install two different language versions of the .NET Framework on the same machine. Attempting to install a second language version of the .NET Framework will cause the following error to appear: "Setup cannot install Microsoft .NET Framework because another version of the product is already installed." If you are targeting a non-English platform or if you wish to view .NET Framework resources in a different language, you must download the appropriate language version of the .NET Framework language pack. isn't win7 preloaded with 3.5 already? Will it create conflict?

I agree with Pior and the rest here. Some basic tools are necessary. However the important part is getting them streamlined so the workflow become efficient and get things done faster. Customization is key. Do not introduce new tool that's never or rarely used at this point.

In your video, I saw repetitive vertex/poly selection by hovering and clicking the icon. Isn't that time wasting? Artists deals with these daily and it would efficiently save their time by using hotkey or button closer to cursor instead. 1 2 3 4 is the hotkey they used in max, but if you can make it better/faster than that for example auto highlight and context sensitive, everyone's gonna love it..

Its really nice to see that you as a developer listen to artists as they're the end user that use ur creation. I also gave up Silo although I love it, it's too buggy.

And btw, Your about page is awesome man..

I would suggest wordpress for your website, it's widely used and easier to update the development status, plus there's huge amount of themes/template to customize..

Did I mention customize?

Last edited by elte; 06-11-2010 at 12:41 AM..
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IStonia's Avatar
Old (#20)
Thanks for the advice guys!

elte: .net language is not a human language, it is a programe runtime language, in other words, it is a machine language. .Different .net versions can run side by side within the same operating system. What it say is the human language version, since each .net version has different human language versions.
.net1.1 preloaded in win 7.
I am using win 7 too, and when I try to install my programe, I still have to download the Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable, otherwise I won't be able to. The funny thing is after that, I unsintall the .net1.1 I installed and my programe still runs ok. That's a little bit tricky.
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Snader's Avatar
Old (#21)
You could take a look at Opera for more customization inspiration. It allows for every button to be placed where you want it, or to be not shown at all. Get a couple of custom (toggleable) palettes in there.

And yes, get the basics right. I find it great that max uses "12345" for vert/line/etc and "wer" for move/rotate/scale. But make the shortkeys customizable too.
Geospheres rule, regular spheres drool!
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Calabi's Avatar
Old (#22)
Woot! I've never been called twice smarter before. Your belief in me increases my power twofold.

Here's another program to check out.

It can only do box modelling and lacks a widget but is very fast workflow. Context sensitive right clicking menus.

A few interesting tools, flatten works really well, and intersect when flatten doesnt work, circularise(but you dont want to be adding, a ton of tools with lots of redundancy, a small group, of core really flexible tools, then perhaps modifiers).

I especially like its vector operations all tools can be manipulated in any direction defined on the model. Although I would prefer a manipulator which you can orient quickly in any direction you want, including defined by the existing geometry or rotated in increments.

A tweak tool.

Lots of selections, select similar every other, half and so on etc.

A UI that doesnt get in the way, I want to see what I'm working on not tons of menus. No icons, if you want to make your ui unfathomable then use icons. If you do use icons then have tooltips that pop up very quickly.

A UI thats intelligent that has an idea of what you are doing and does its best to help. Like you are extruding and you reach the edge of the screen and the view auto zooms out. Your going through a list of selections it prehighlights what those selections will be.

Modular focused workflow, instead of the clutter of everything available at all times. Like Carrara, Wings3D, 3DCoat, you have rooms like painting, sculpting, rendering, animation.

If your looking to improve artists workflow, you should watch them work. Dont always rely on what people say, they lie, or dont know, or say what they mean.
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IStonia's Avatar
Old (#23)
Hi guys, its been a while. I have got somthing done.

I built a StreamLine Engein and a SmartTips System. I also made it customizable for both the view tools and modeling tools.

You can get the free version from here

Hopefully I am in the right direction.

Offline , polygon, 681 Posts, Join Date Jun 2010, Location New Zealand  
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flat-D's Avatar
Old (#24)
hey IStonia,

i'm very impressed by this latest post. i can't believe it's only 20 days between your first and last post in this thread. considering how clueless you were in terms of workflow at the time of your first post it is even more impressive to see where you've come with the latest release!

you've accepted criticism and suggestions from this thread to the best and managed to figure out what it is people like in modeling tools from the thread Vrav pointed out.

i myself am a long time silo user, it has always been considerably stable through all my systems at home and work and never experienced the extreme frustration others are having. i have become so spoiled by it's worklow, i just can not get used to any other tool. as soon as i pick up another modeling app i get 'oh that's why i like silo'

i still haven't tried your app, i'll give it a go as soon as i get some time. here's what i feel is important in a 3d modeling app.

- as already mentioned, learning curve is a BIG deal

- workflow. that's where it's at, click-efficiency what i call it.
- customization. both extent and ease of customization.

[ if you compare modo vs silo, modo is superior with it's tools (and looks way better); it still does not make it a better modeling app IMO. silo beats it in worklow and customization. ]

i think you are in the right direction, i hope to have some real feedback for you once i try your app.

another app to check out in terms of seeing an efficient learning curve and workflow is 'Sculptris'. it's a free sculpting app, in a way Silo of the sculpting world.

good luck, i look forward to see this app grow!
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PolyHertz's Avatar
Old (#25)

-Does it really NEED to be an installable file? Much prefer how Blender/Sculptris do it where the app doesn't need to be installed and can just have its files extract to and run from an empty folder. If nothing else it makes testing out new builds more of a pain.

-No way to drag the viewports/menu borders to make them larger/smaller

-Viewport navigation is odd, try using the alt+lmb/mmb/rmb, its the most widely accepted 3d navigation.

-The viewport 'snaps' while moving around in it, its not smooth at all, not referring to performance. However, when it comes to performance, even with just a box zooming in/out sometimes made the program choke for a second or two.

-qwerty keys dont work, despite being listed.

-pre-selection highlighting is active on all component types despite the component mode the user is in.

-Tools like inset don't work in realtime, making it so the user has to undo, change values, and re-try some actions many times to get them right, wasting a lot of time.

-The bug vrav mentioned is also still present in this build of the mesh disappearing with a oragami looking piece showing up in the middle of the scene. happened with using undo, inset, and cut for me.

Honestly the program is a mess atm (to say the least). My suggestion would be to rip out the core, fix it up, and re-build the entire UI and its tools from the ground up. This program feels like it was built in a bubble, with little or no input from artists that actually use the kind of software you're trying to create here.

If you want people to use your progam, you're going to need to make some major changes. Just because its free doen't mean people will care about the effort you've put in. Blender is the most advanced free app, but almost no one but hobbiests and cash-poor indies use it over the major apps, and the main reason for that is its UI (at least until 2.49) is almost universally disliked.

Make a simple UI, with just a few well implemented tools and people will love you. Make an overbearing beast of a program with every tool imaginable but a horrible UI and people will ignore you. Its that simple.

Last edited by PolyHertz; 06-30-2010 at 03:09 AM..
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