New TF 2 animation

James9475 · May 2010

Hi, I'm making a project for team fortress 2 that will involve all the characters, but for now, I just have a WIP's of the main bulk of the short: These will get facial animation and be rendered in the tf2 style.

[ame]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc9BBfkGXwY[/ame]

[ame]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK-WW8PIuyc[/ame]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufoyZgTfySI[/ame]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-Qlz2631Ic[/ame]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtMzgIHeUHE[/ame]

[ame]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-G7gEHTcQ4[/ame]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY476OfuCgg[/ame]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKb38bg1L3o[/ame]

Cyrael · May 2010

everything looks really cool - except for a really big thing for me was at 11-12 seconds when he's doing the slides - he slides from side to side with only one foot on the ground, doesn't have enough weight/ can't create enough momentum off that one foot to move that much. Also his upper body doesn't reflect the weigh transfer for a move like that.

The backflip may be a bit (maybe a frame or two) too slow as well, but that could just be my preference.

Everything else looks really solid though. (so much so that that one part really stood out) Nice work.

JonathanF · May 2010

sweet animation job man! I agree with Cyrael on the 11-12 second mark area with him sliding around like that on the feet. Doesn't seem very possible. This is one of those videos that people will watch more than once because its great, and those kind of things will stick out to them.... if not the first time, then the second at least. Everything else is very well done IMO. Keep it up! really looking forward to seeing this completed!

ArtOfBrad · May 2010

looking sweet so far!

also agree on 11 sec mark...all u need is for the feet to follow a frame later than they are now...so it looks like his shoes make traction with the ground...

The back flip is off. 90% of the flip shold happen at the Peak of the jump...so its more like Crouch, Launch, expand body, FLIP Tucked in, Untuck, EXPAND, Land.

Mezz · May 2010

Ummmm... what they all said

Really fun piece! Great so far, can't wait to see more!!

A.Kincade · May 2010

HA!!! Thats badass. Good stuff.

James9475 · May 2010

Glad you guys think it's off to a good start. I agree about the flip and foot issue that have been raised, and I'll get to work on that after work

I have to finish this and then do 8 more (plus all the animation that ties this stuff together in the scene, this is just the meat of the dancing, there's some intro stuff) so expect a lot of updates heh.

pior · May 2010

To be brutally honest ... the motions themselves look nice and smooth (good arcs) but I have no idea what I am watching. Without the sound it really doesnt look like a dance at all I think. Except for 0:16 to 0:18, where the rythm and the beats are nicely marked. The rest is very spaghettiesque.
(I am no animator hence I cannot really give technical advice ... but I really enjoy dissecting animations, what I like about some and what I dont like about others ...)

Hope this helps somehow ?

As an example, I know this is likely mocap but still, very readable even without sound :
[ame]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLmE4lby_fI&feature=related[/ame]
I think the reason why it works so well is because, not everything moves at the same time. When the head bangs, the body is still ; when he does the sidesteps, the torso retain its orientation, and so on. I guess dancers do that too? When a ballerina spins and locks her head for every half spin, for instance...

Good luck!

Nistrum · May 2010

its because dancers dance "inside" the beat. you have to hit notes with your body. there are various points where hes not moving to the rythm. dont get me wrong, i love it. but thats whats putting it off. the beginning does it, but at about 8 seconds he totally drops the beeat and thats what kills it. try and have his motions begin or end on the beat. obviously not for the whole thing. but just set cirtain anchors every beat or so to make sure it links to the song, otherwise it just wont read right.

James9475 · May 2010

Hi, I definately agree that things could line up with the music nicer. The footage I've been looking at for reference hasn't been the sort of really synronised stuff you'd see in a pop song dance routine, and that's not really the feel I want to capture, but I agree that the different sections of the dance could transition in better time with the music.

It's meant to be an abstract freestyle sort of thing so I don't want him to hit every note on the beat (especially beacause that 5 beat pattern repeats endlessly and would be boring to watch him slamming into different poses constatly) but yes, I will do my very best to try and line things up nicer.

TY for the crits so far

DerDude · May 2010

like it, a good start

the big jump feels really slow to me
keep up the good work

onionhead_o · May 2010

holy smokes looks so awesome.

monster · May 2010

Great start. I saw your demo reel on your site. I'm impressed and think in time you'll be an undeniable bad ass. However, there are 2 things I identified that could improve your animations overall.

1) You lead with your hands and feet very often. You should try having the motions appear they are starting at the core of the body. Move the hips before you move the feet, and move the shoulders before you move the hands.

2) Similar to the first, you have nice arcs on the limbs, but you don't have them on the core of the body. Here's an example:

Watch your other animation and you'll see this pattern.

3) This is just specific to this animation and not an overall thing. I jotted some notes on the back flip the demo man performs.

Keep up the good work man, I can't wait to see more.

ArtOfBrad · May 2010

MOSTER good breakdown...

about the dancing...i have to disagree with the hitting the beats...ONLY BC...
demo man isnt a real dancer...part of the campyness' of it is that he's off beat...

kinda like that guy at a wedding who just dances...regardless of what song is playing....it can be any song and he will dance the same...

at leat thats what i got from it...i def dont want to see him hitting the beats and syncing with the music...personal pref. though...i like that hes off.

James9475 · May 2010

Monster, that was a great crit and I HUGELY appreciate the time you took to produce that. I'm going to take a look through the whole thing watching for those 2 main points and try to really hammer that out. As for the jump, again absolutely correct, I didn't spend all that long on the jump yet (at that point I was very eager to get the thing laid out so I could gain momentum) and it absolutely needs a lot of attention.

Brad, thanks for putting in a voice for not keeping things too structured, your comments definately resonate with my intentions (I wanted this dance to be pretty loose and a little amateurish). I think that essentially, I need to strike the right balance, so that the animation FEELS right and satisfying while still having that imperfection to it.

Thanks a lot for the comments so far guys, checking this thing from work is making me hungry to get home and get back into it.

James9475 · May 2010

Hey guys, made changes to the demoman, but for now I want to show you what I've been doing with the pyro. To be clear, the demoman is NOT done and I have taken every crit and tried to fix it, but for now, to get the most crits possible, I am showing you some of the pyro animation.

[ame]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpb9XXxU2rM[/ame]

Thanks as always for all feedback

P.S. Yes this one has motion blur, the final renders will have motion blur. I prob shoudnt have left blur on for crits but I didnt think about it, and I cant be bothered re uploading right this minute

Lord McMutton · May 2010

Why is it 20 seconds long, with only 6 seconds of video?

moose · May 2010

With the demoman, i kind of appreciate and enjoy the fact that he is off-beat and not exactly to the rhythm of the track. You could further emphasize that as being intentional by putting his bottle of booze in his hand, and he's just drunken dancing in lala land - to inject his character into your animation, instead of just having some cool moves that mc hammer does because they're the same skin color

I think playing off the character's personalities and using that with the dance would help sell this even more, since the movements are cool! Just feel it falls a little shallow & short on how the TF2 characters and classes are personified.

It'll be cool to see all of these together in one short, can't wait!

James9475 · May 2010

You know Moose, you've really brought up something interesting. I very much want the personalities to come through in the dancing. For example, the pyro's references are all from female pop dancers (b/c of the various implications that the pyro is really a girl). I'm planning to have the heavy and the Medic dance together as if they were lovers (based on the typical healing relationship etc). I think you've definitely pin pointed the fact that I really haven't chosen a strong enough theme for the demoman, and to some extent, I really have just given him hip hop moves because he's black. In hindsight, I feel I should maybe have given him drunken Scottish dancing moves, but I think the idea of him having a bottle in one hand is a really really good idea, and a great jumping off point for me to rethink things a little bit.

Really excellent crit.

haiddasalami · May 2010

James9475 wrote: »

I'm planning to have the heavy and the Medic dance together as if they were lovers (based on the typical healing relationship etc).

Why do I envision heavy and medic dancing DDR style :O

James9475 · May 2010

OK guys, here's the pyro doing the entire sequence, not finished though obviously.

[ame]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-G7gEHTcQ4[/ame]

Harry · May 2010

...are you coreographing these yourself?

Acumen · May 2010

haha, that totally put a huuuuge laugh on my face

not going to nitpick anything, just pure entertaining for me

huge step in the right direction from the start ! totally looking forward to more videos like that
*pressesreplay*

PatrickL · May 2010

I'm afraid I'm pretty hopeless in animation critique, but I've got to agree with Acumen, you're headed in the right direction. The Pyro animation feels much more emotional because it matches with the music so well. Keep it up!

I love maximizing the Pyro video and having him fill my monitor with mad dance skills. (A .gif of the video for a wallpaper would be amazing, though I would never get any work done.)

ENODMI · May 2010

Those are just silly:)

tommywomble · May 2010

made me lol so, must be doing something right xD

Can't really critique the animation, i suck at it :P

ChrisspyB · May 2010

Wow dude!
That's some fine work you've got there:D

James9475 · Jun 2010

OK here's my latest WIP, this time the Sniper doing some moves from Napoleon Dynamite's repertoire.

[ame]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtMzgIHeUHE[/ame]

dansher · Jun 2010

holy crap thats awesome

adam · Jun 2010

You should just use the song he dances to.

James9475 · Jun 2010

Hey there Adam, I guess maybe you haven't been following the thread. The entire point of this is that the characters are all dancing together to the same song, so I can't just make each dance have it's own song. If I was simply trying to ape the Napoleon Dynamite scene with this one character, yes I would have used the Jamiroquai song.

Taylor Hood · Jun 2010

James9475 wrote: »

OK here's my latest WIP, this time the Sniper doing some moves from Napoleon Dynamite's repertoire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtMzgIHeUHE

YOU SIR! Have made my life complete : )

A blood elf dance from a TF2 Sniper!
F- YEAH : D

Disco Stu · Jun 2010

You should make these as a polypack thread too!
I know its not really in the rules but i could see valve implementing awesome animations

CactusFantastico · Jun 2010

i tryed studying the videos for crits but ended up just crying with laughter haha well done!

Makkon · Jun 2010

The sniper is your very best by far. It has smoother, more believable motion, and personally I like the choreography much more than your others. Keep it up! Wish I had some real critique to offer.

NathanA · Jun 2010

The animations themselves are very good but as has been mentioned it doesn't really feel like they are dancing to the song. ESPECIALLY if you are having them all dance to the same exact song, this song in particular they should start off a bit slow, kind of choppy, to the beat and then all speed up at the same time when the beat really starts to hit (right after "EVERYBODY DANCE NOW).

this video I found is prob one of the worst examples of animation but it gets the idea of movin to the music across that I'm trying to convey:
[ame]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JzuJbCvtNI&feature=related[/ame]

start them slow then drop them in at the same time.

Hope that helps, animations are great though

James9475 · Jun 2010

Thanks for the input guys.

To NathanA, in all honesty I don't really understand what you would have me do, because at the moment there is already a dance beat corresponding to every single musical beat. I can definitely see how you might want the dancing to start off slower, but I don't think that would actually look any better, in fact, given that I have around 20 seconds of dancing for each character, I don't want to waste any of that time (and in the video they will be bursting into dance spontaneously, not ramping up to it).

If the animation you linked is doing something I'm not seeing (I.E. more than just lining up dance moves to the song beats) then please tell me.

Ty again everyone.

rollin · Jun 2010

nice one!! and cool crit by monster

NathanA · Jun 2010

was just showing the video to show the ramp up, if the vids only going to be 20 secs long or so i might suggest you edit the song so its already at the fast part or something.

ArtOfBrad · Jun 2010

james ur doing fine man..keep banging away at these...

the character does NOT MEED TO BE syncipated....thats when a dancer hits a move on exact beats of a song rather than dancing on the 8 count...ALL MUSIC is on an 8 count...i know all of this bc my wife is a pretty famous salsa dancer from NY.

this is her dancing with her partner/friend. and yes that really is my wife...
[ame="

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjslxcAntl0"]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjslxcAntl0[/ame]

What i see with these:
the idea is that these characters are dancing, but to their own rythm in their head...MUCH LIKE 90% of people who go clubbing...most people have no clue how to find the beat or to dance....they just move with the natural rythm in their mind...

Ive been a pro salsa dancer, hip hop, break and pop locker for a LONG time on the side of being an animator....

Thes animations are awesome...why? bc they are basically characters just dancing...they remind of the guy at a wedding that is out there moving...regardless of the song, they do the same thing. MOST people are actually like this.

Youre hitting big poses on certain hard beats...usually on the 1 beat or the 8. wich makes these funny and cool.

If you guys are wanting full on choreography with this stuff, thats just silly.

this is a very good friend of mine dancing freestyle, he is sycipating here...dancing on the notes instead of the 1-8 beat counts....in some areas he goes back to hitting the beat rather than the instruments.

NOTICE that nothing about this looks silly or funny...why? bc hes "Dancing" correctly ....these TF2 guys should NOT be dancing correctly IMO. The sillier, and more off beat/ off balance the better with these!

[ame="

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuTr4cPIn4g"]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuTr4cPIn4g[/ame]

NathanA · Jun 2010

double post like an hour later ><

James9475 · Jun 2010

TY Brad for chiming in, very glad you understand what I'm going for! I want them dancing to the music, but not like, insanely professional dancers.

I might actually use some of your friends moves as reference though if any more of them do hip hop stuff

Ty for ALL comments though, I'm making this for the internet population to enjoy more than for myself (the finished thing isn't really aimed as a reel piece) so any comments give me a wider view of how people react to what is, essentially, a product that is designed to appeal to them.

Editing the 4th reference video now, enjoying checking the thread every so often

3DLee · Jun 2010

These are just awesome!

NathanA · Jun 2010

I'm definitely looking forward to seeing what you come up with for the heavy. :poly121:

James9475 · Jun 2010

you will DEFINITELY be surprised by the heavy, but that one will be number 5, and take a lil longer than the other so prob a few weeks out

Andreas · Jun 2010

Dayum Brad that's some nice work son :P

As far as your animation goes James, watch your silhouettes and hold your poses longer, you missed some good opportunities with the sniper in this regards. Like when he first throws his arms to the side, hold that pose (moving hold of course) for a few more frames before he lifts his arms up. Also he loses balance at the pose at frame 8. Also the all the arms and legs seem to arrive at their destination at the same time, you should delay some of them.

James9475 · Jun 2010

OK, next WIP is up and ready to look at. Making steady progress.

[ame]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufoyZgTfySI[/ame]

Andreas · Jun 2010

Do you film yourself for reference? I demand you show us XD

tda · Jun 2010

timing on the music or not, these animations are gorgeous. bravo dude!!

James9475 · Jun 2010

Blenderhead wrote: »

Do you film yourself for reference? I demand you show us XD

For each video I cut a reference in Sony Vegas out of random clips from youtube or whatnot. It's usually quite rough but hits the beats I want to hit etc. Then I just animate the whole thing strait ahead. To be honest I don't block things out, I just go wham bam thank you mam cause its more dynamic, and follow the ref reasonably closely, but then change a bunch of stuff to fit the character etc.

pior · Jun 2010

Even tho I see the point about folks 'dancing in their heads', and the idea of having the TF2 characters dance like regular people, I dont see why you woulndt want to try to make one of them really dance to the music properly - just for the sake of seeing how its done even.

At the moment, I really like the quality of the animations themselves (I see way too many over-animated, badly balanced stuff around forums and released games, your stuff is much better and I like it!) but still it really looks like you took a bunch of dance moves, queued them together THEN added the music on top at the very end hoping it would look funny. It feels very random ...

I know you will say that random is the goal you re trying to achieve - but I dont think its good enough a justification hehe. Also, real 'not so good' dancers never have such a variety of moves, they usually do the same thing over and over, wich in itself can be very funny. Maybe thats something to explore too.

So I think my gut feeling is ... such characters, knowing so many moves, seem like eperienced dancers, hence they should move to the beat! (maybe its youtube de-synching the video but I doubt it ... They should hold poses on the beat longer instead of rushing to the next pose... especially on such a famous song that everybody knows the beat of!)

Hope this helps!

New TF 2 animation

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