Hmmm this brings back memories. I read this today, it seems there are a lot of for profit schools screwing everyone in every industry they can. Also because the economy is so bad people are finally starting to talk about how bs many universities and schools are.

http://finance.yahoo.com/college-edu...chool-and-debt

After I read this it reminded me of how I also heard the same sales pitch. I hope this informs people to be careful when they decide to get in debt with the promise of getting a better job. Just because you get a degree it doesn't mean you'll get a decent paying job or the program you paid for is worth anything.

Good luck.

The best lead I got on a job at GDC was from Ubisoft. They really liked my portfolio and seemed eager to find out if i could work for them, they asked where i worked, I told them I was a student, the conversation ended pretty much right there. Apparently they can only take people with 3 years industry experience that aren't Canadian (I was told my school experience would count as job experience, it doesn't. Also don't bank on your degree getting you everywhere out of the states).

Meanwhile, as much as i'd like to focus on building portfolio pieces to broaden my work, i'm spending most of my week doing up story boards, writing papers on sociology, driving half an hour to school and back. The school also seems out of touch with what the industry is looking for, a lot of the education has been counter productive, focusing largely on small tri counts and small texture sizes.

It's very frustrating. It feels as though the biggest wall between me and producing the work required for getting a job is the school that I had thought would help, the one I paid lots of money for and still am. Also of note is the job placement they talked so highly of when i was introduced to the school. I figured, hey if i do well here, i'll have a job. This simply isn't the case, in fact they really pile on how much the weight is on us to get out there and get a job at the tail end of the education. I'm finding it very hard these days to justify the large tuition.

That said, the head start they gave me was invaluable, getting started on this path was huge to be where i am now. I wish i could just give 'em the money that would have gone towards the required classes and get my degree. I've come this far, but the school really doesn't offer me anything at this point, I want to get out so i can put this behind me and focus on doing game art.

I should also say that I really enjoyed nearly all of my art related instructors and everyone involved in the game art program at my school. The problem isn't with the faculty, it's the system set in place by whoever runs these very lucrative institutions who pry on aspiring creatives. It's a pretty sad state of affairs.

If any aspiring game artists are reading this who are considering school, it's not a bad choice. Just find a school that isn't bloated with courses you aren't interested in. Spending a good chunk of change for a reputable, accelerated course i think is a brilliant idea.

You know, what I wonder is why those tuition fees need to be so astronomical? I work for a school in Belgium and we run on about $9000 per student (paid by the state). Other international game art schools easily charge 4 times that amount. Doesn't that mean they're basically wading in cash?

Jeff you have some really nice work there. I hope you can take advantage of your location and do some internships, that's really all that counts as experience for most companies. If you still have a few semesters left, get on finding an internship at a local studio. Make those count! Good luck.

in the UK it works out about $16k per year, $10k paid by the government directly, and the remaining $6k loaned to the student, and paid directly to the university (which the student must repay).

I know how you feel Crazy... I went to SCAD and actually majored in visual effects. The work load was insane and I pushed myself constantly to stay on top. I have been really frustrated the last 6 months after graduation trying to find a job... even from people I knew that had connections with people in the industry. The #1 thing that has been the immediate "turning off interest" in the application has been experience. I understand how the industry works.. I've done internships and worked on major film projects, but the fact that years logged at an institution doesn't seem to surmount for experience bothers me. I know it is a major financial risk.. and I understand that they expect people to be absolutely prepared to pick up the slack... but I know for a fact that the balancing of dozens of projects at the same time all while maintaining the ability to finish very time consuming CG work is a lot more than some people even manage at their job.

I spent so many long hours at night... after class.. until 3-4 in the morning on projects wishing to be in the industry working... because no matter how involved the project was at night I could go home and relax. I love the work and I love doing it, but from what I've seen the last few months landing that initial job for experience is honest to god "luck." I'm not bashing anyone because most of them have amazing portfolios, I would just like to see a flawless GPA and long hours of hard work count for experience in the industry.

Crazyfingers -

I'm guessing that this has to do with getting you a Visa if it was for the Ubi's in Canada. I just went through getting one and, trust me, it's a bitch to obtain. Basically, they can't look at you if you don't have relevant experience as their lawyers need to be able to prove you qualify as a graphic designer under the NAFTA agreement. Same goes with freelancing, it's really difficult to 'prove' that experience. You know it's real experience, I know it's real experience, to certain extent the lawyers know it's experience, but the DHS doesn't. It's all about rules and if you can't solidly fit under those rules, you're shit out of luck. Until you get 3 years experience, of course.

I had almost 4 years studio experience and a one year diploma which was enough. But my freelancing experience, a year that I basically regard as the most important decision of my career, is more or less void since it's so hard to 'prove' that...you know?

Unless your school is a degree...not sure if it is...mine wasn't...you need to pair that schooling up with 3 years minimum work experience. So, it still counts as it's 'something' but if it isn't a full on degree, you need work experience to back it up as well.

They really don't tell you this in school. I've bitched PLENTY about schooling and how this industry's education system needs a serious facelift..so..whatever. But, yeah,

Edit> To correct myself, you're not necessarily SOL - but you'd have to be, like, good enough for immigration lawyers to pull a lot of strings for you.

You really need to be careful about what school you choose. I was in the very first year of a 3D/Video Production course of a school that opened in Edmonton, and it was horrible. It ended up being me paying $20,000 to rent a computer for 8 months. The first teacher was fired after 3 months, and the new teacher only knew the basics of XSI (we were "taught" Maya).

So make sure you do your research, make sure it's a credible course, and teaches everything you'll need to know.

Also, I'm sure the school I went to is much better now, but it's still too little for too much.

Originally Posted by marks

in the UK it works out about $16k per year, $10k paid by the government directly, and the remaining $6k loaned to the student, and paid directly to the university (which the student must repay).

Maybe up north it is but down south where I live you can double that for a decent university.

Gavin you mean getting a Visa for the US you only needed 4 years? I thought you needed like 12.

The sad thing is that many students who want to get into the game art field are being suckered by these for profit schools even with research into the courses and faculty. By the numbers the 4yr gaming degrees are costing an average of $84k (no gov aid) that's a little less than $1k a month at 6.8%. I dont know about you but that's pure murder to any graduate unless they're in the medical or law field.

But as can be seen in the current lifestyle its all about profit and greed for $'s so on that note im going to need all your SSN's and banking details for my Nigerian banker friend hes promising big returns if we help him move his monies...

State schools have just as many problems and are getting up there in cost. It's more a problem with the education system in general.

In my opinion you cant necessarily blame the schools, the person always has a choice whether they did enough research on the school etc in making a decision, it's their fault if they don't like what they get.

Even if you attend an accredited, certified school it still barely means anything in the industry along the lines of showing experience.

DKK, nah. At least not for me - and as far as I know any other Canadian or Mexican. Because of the NAFTA agreement, we don't have the same restrictions as Europeans might have. Don't get me wrong, there's a ton of red tape and I wouldn't of been able to get through if it wasn't for lawyer's assistance. But yeah, it' a degree or a diploma plus min. 3 years experience. I also went on a super quiet day, hours before my flight, prepared and had a nice immigration officer...so...I got lucky

A big thing is following rules. DHS doesn't care if you are a phenomenal artist, if you can't prove that you meet all of the restrictions - or make it difficult for hem to understand that you do - it's pointless.

Anyways, yeah, schools can be lame - but even mine helped me out and it's pretty low key. It's fucking stupid, but people who call the big shots (not studio heads or art directors, they couldn't care less about school..but people involved in immigration and such) want to see that piece of paper. No matter how shitty thee school is, they don't know or care, it's just a piece to show you follow the rules.

That being said, a lot of people will say 'you could have researched' or 'you get what you put in' and, to a certain degree, that's true....but when I was looking to go to school I had NO idea where to begin. I bought into the sales pitch because i was just mesmerized and didn't know any better. At the time, I didn't even know what a polycount was...or what roles actually went into games or film...so how would i be able to accurately pick a good spot? It's like looking up how to spell a word in a dictionary. To me, at that time, one school looked just as plausible as the others. About getting back what you put in, that's only true for so long. Sure, you work harder - get more out of it get better grades and most likely get a job. That's the way this industry goes - you bust your ass, you will get a job eventually. But you can only work for so long with broken tools and then it just turns into personal work - which pretty much has nothing to do with the school itself. Thinking back on all the quirky things that I was taught that was just plain wrong...hah...but you don't really figure that out until long after the fact.

Originally Posted by Sage

Hmmm this brings back memories. I read this today, it seems there are a lot of for profit schools screwing everyone in every industry they can. Also because the economy is so bad people are finally starting to talk about how bs many universities and schools are.

http://finance.yahoo.com/college-edu...chool-and-debt

After I read this it reminded me of how I also heard the same sales pitch. I hope this informs people to be careful when they decide to get in debt with the promise of getting a better job. Just because you get a degree it doesn't mean you'll get a decent paying job or the program you paid for is worth anything.

Good luck.

sounds like we are in the educational inflation -_-

i dont know how poor the school program is, but this is what my teacher said
( he is great animation teacher)
once he said that about 10-15 years ago industry/prospective employer come to school
and ask this to design student :

"who love 3d?"
only one person raise a hand. ( remember this is like early 90 ish)
then they offer him a job
just like that ...
now? i think it would be much much harder.

instead making their student to fight for the same job, i think it is time for school to be step ahead. how to make their art "sell", not just "accepted" .
not repeating the same art formula. even tho some basic might work, but should teach them how to create their own formula.

It's been a year since I graduated from Full Sail. Definitely one of those types of schools but at the same time...

Full Sail presents you with opportunity, it's up to you to actually use the opportunity. Everyone working there has industry experience and it's a huge networking experience while learning the tools. There are a lot of people who walk into that school expecting everything to be handed to them and I watched a lot of people fail because of it. Take every opportunity to ask questions, you're paying them to be there so you'd better be getting your moneys worth for a school that's as expensive as that.

Pretty much everyone I've talked to said the first year after graduations rough, that just how it goes in general unless you're VERY well connected, which is why they push it so hard. I only recently got my first Contract gig, I'm hoping more stuff will pan out and I'll land something full time.


tl;dr

Graduated from Full Sail, You're paying for an experience with schools like these. Get the most out of it otherwise, you're wasting your time and money.

First contract wasn't too long ago, hire me. (lol)

Hey Gav, you're in boston now???

Hells yeah man! Staying with a friend now, but hoping to move to Quincy at the end of the month.

(I kept my move / job change sort of low key :P )

Originally Posted by Progg

Even if you attend an accredited, certified school it still barely means anything in the industry along the lines of showing experience.

Might as well chime in here after being absent for a long time. These threads come and go.

I went to (victimized by?) one of these schools in Toronto, Canada. The tuition was astronomical. However, I could afford it, to a point. As in I had the money and that is what I spent it on.

School, good or bad is about use of time. And after pissing away a couple years of Engineering and partying I decided to actually sit down and use my time, even though the school was horrible. Taking an art/vg related course at that shit school opened my eyes to the dedication it takes to develop my own talent. And made me pay attention to multiple facets of the industry. I also stumbled upon these forums during my time there (no thanks to the school). And these forums are better than much of the education out there imo. I've learned more from these forums than most of my "industry" teachers.

At the end of it, I learned more from the time I spent on my own than the school itself. But without the kick in my own ass from myself after paying for that time and effort I would be in a lot worse situation.

I'm working in the industry now, even if it's for a publishing company doing PR and Marketing (no where near art). I feel that while the school might have wasted my money, but I didn't waste my time. And I don't plan on wasting my time in the future.

My art is no where near the talent I've seen on these forums, and I intend on spending much more time developing my own talent and skills. I've barely scratched the surface. But to bring this around to the post I quoted, it seems from the words I've heard and the people I've talked to in the industry, it is less about the piece of paper education than it is about raw talent and ability and presentation (and surprisingly, personality) of the person applying for the job.

There's definitely jobs out there. In my mind, it's up to the student to seize the day (to harp a cliche). Regardless of whether they are in a shit school, or on a pipeline/feeder to work at Valve.

Often times I think students put too much faith in ANY school they go to to somehow automatically get them a job when they are done.

Originally Posted by Saidin311

Might as well chime in here after being absent for a long time. These threads come and go.

I went to (victimized by?) one of these schools in Toronto, Canada. The tuition was astronomical. However, I could afford it, to a point. As in I had the money and that is what I spent it on.

School, good or bad is about use of time. And after pissing away a couple years of Engineering and partying I decided to actually sit down and use my time, even though the school was horrible. Taking an art/vg related course at that shit school opened my eyes to the dedication it takes to develop my own talent. And made me pay attention to multiple facets of the industry. I also stumbled upon these forums during my time there (no thanks to the school). And these forums are better than much of the education out there imo. I've learned more from these forums than most of my "industry" teachers.

At the end of it, I learned more from the time I spent on my own than the school itself. But without the kick in my own ass from myself after paying for that time and effort I would be in a lot worse situation.

I'm working in the industry now, even if it's for a publishing company doing PR and Marketing (no where near art). I feel that while the school might have wasted my money, but I didn't waste my time. And I don't plan on wasting my time in the future.

My art is no where near the talent I've seen on these forums, and I intend on spending much more time developing my own talent and skills. I've barely scratched the surface. But to bring this around to the post I quoted, it seems from the words I've heard and the people I've talked to in the industry, it is less about the piece of paper education than it is about raw talent and ability and presentation (and surprisingly, personality) of the person applying for the job.

There's definitely jobs out there. In my mind, it's up to the student to seize the day (to harp a cliche). Regardless of whether they are in a shit school, or on a pipeline/feeder to work at Valve.

Often times I think students put too much faith in ANY school they go to to somehow automatically get them a job when they are done.

I completely agree. I wholeheartedly feel it is up to the student to make what they want from the experience. I never expect anything to be hand fed and I think it is ridiculous the number of people that get a job solely based on the fact they know the owner/ceo... head lead... etc.etc. I'm not directing this at anyone in the industry, I have many friends in the industry and I would suggest a buddy that needed a job.. but only because they were qualified to do said job. It is a rarity in this industry that someone not qualified gets a job because they know someone or have years logged in the field, but I'm sure it still happens. I'm just agreeing with those in this thread that the experience of juggling projects at a well accredited school should be looked upon as some form of experience (granted the person has a great portfolio and was very successful at said school).

Mock up situation:
-2 candidates for a job.
-very,very similar portfolios
- 1 candidate is a recent graduate the other has been in the game industry for 3 or so years (somewhat equal to the time the other was in an institution)

Say for the instance of this mock up the one that worked in the industry didn't have a degree as well... was just hired by luck or connection or w/e for his first job.

I know that 80% or more of getting the job is the interview and personality but that person with the 3 years experience definitely has an edge. All I'm saying is that a degree should at least count as a bit of experience.

But is a rough time for everyone... and I know that the months after graduation are usually the roughest.

Originally Posted by Progg

Even if you attend an accredited, certified school it still barely means anything in the industry along the lines of showing experience.

I think the problem comes from schools pushing the trade school thing. Especially for video game art. 3d modeling/game art is definitely something that you need to 90% self teach. Art school should be for learning other skills than just how to execute a model or texture with basic proficiency.

Also, don't think that all schools are raking in the cash. Its extremely expensive to run a college and at many private schools the tuition doesn't cover operating expenses.

I hate to say Progg but degrees dont really seem to count for shit when applying for a job,a 4 year degree can be helpful when you are getting a work visa but aside from that i dont see that as a big factor in landing a job.


So in your mock up scenerio you have a student just coming out of school versus someone with 3 years industry experience,i would say off course the 3 year vet has the edge. On the surface of your scenerio they seem like well balanced canidates but i think you miss the important aspect of experience.

Theres alot of other factors involved that employers had to take into account when hiring someone. Like for instance..

-how well with a new artist fresh out of school handle the pressures of working in a production cycle?

- Who works faster?

- how much additional training would a green artist need?

- How quickly can you jump into a project and contribute equally as the other artists?

- Who would you trust more if you needed a change to an asset on the fly?

- how well can you work in a team?

- How techincally adept are you besides the art aspect?


Theres alot of other factors that you have to take into account when hiring someone,so even if in terms of ability the stwo artists look equal,experience matters.

Why don't you study in an other country? Its less expensive. I know that our school goes international now and it will be less then those big prices you all have to pay.

I understand your frustration crazyfingers, sounds alot like my experience at uni a few years ago.

J0420 - you make sense when you talk of what a company is looking for but I dont think its possible to compare someone with 3 years industry experience to someone with 3 years university. Im pretty much ageeing with you here but heres my experience of the situation.

You spend your time working your butt off at university which costs you loads of cash and you end up teaching yourself. End of the 3 years you have a load of projects which are mostly unrelated to the job you want to get because thats what universitys do, they give you modular projects, a taste of each artistic discipline and dont help you to specialise. You then need to spend another year or 2 just learning the skills and getting yourself and your portfolio out there enough to possibly get a job in the industry if you are lucky. You then need to be productive in that job for at least another 2 years before you are at the same level as that industry vet with 3 years experience.

So in my estimation most determined game artists that attend a school/uni will spend a minimum 6 years trying to get to the point where they actually meet the requirements of even the lowest game art job - 2 years industry experience.