i've been working with 3d for years (about 5)and i have never finished a character model (by finished i mean,modeled, boned (properly) and textured (well). i always feel ambitious at the start of things but run out of steam so fast once i realize i didn't plan my mesh well enough or i simply don't know enough about boning to make my models move in a way that isn't horrid.

that and i've never modeled something to be the final product (just making a model to have made that model and it would have no other purpose other than existing) and everything i've ever tried has had to be a part of something.

the same has applied to other visual artwork over the last several years. i haven't drawn one image that was to simply be an image, it's always had to be a design or a plan for something else as though one image cannot possibly validate it's own existence and must be part of something bigger.

i know this hasn't always been the case but it's what has become of me. not sure what to attribute it to either, overly ambitious (wanting to make a feature length animated film by myself, create a comic/video game with one other person who would never mirror my enthusiasm.) or the lack of creative peers (never had a chance at art school, moved to a state where i have no friends and no one around me cares or has ever cared about my small accomplishments in visual art) or just undiagnosed depression (no insurance).

i viewed this forum as a chance at gaining peers but so far i've noticed that my posts get less and less responses as people realize i'm not well adjusted and don't have my shit in order (and i guess have too many questions and people here are fortunate enough to be too busy to respond to this kind of shit). since joining this forum i have made major strides in my understading of things 3d related but i just can't apply them to what i want to do and the more i get frustrated the more i forget what it is i wanted in the first place.

they say the creative are never well adjusted and always have at least one thing wrong with them. however it turns out that having a bunch wrong with you doesnt amplify your creativity or give you the direction to actually follow through with something and it doesnt exactly open up opportunities for you to learn either.

it's amazing how difficult it can be to just be ok with what you make, to just let whats wrong with it slide. i respect the shit out of things that are filled with flaws yet i can't let anything i create see the light of day or even be finished if i feel it has even one.

last stupid note: i do realize one of the biggest factors in the divide between me and those i respect is deadlines that force them to finish even if they aren't ready. asside from input from living people who can answer your questions as they are related to your problems, deadlines is the thing that makes art school/real world work such an amazing partner to creativity and something i wish i had the oppurtunity to be a part of. unfortunately i don't respect myself enough to give myself deadlines i'll take seriously.

nice long confession anyone who has ever seen any of my posts could have probably guessed.

Well what about doing 1-day projects? There is tons of stuff one can do under 10 hours. And it makes sundays fun!

it's really a strange coincidence that you happened to read and respond to this cause you're one of the artists i hold in such high esteem (my favorite of your works being the swimmer).

one of the problems is i don't get consistant time to myself (i have a toddler and my free time typically begins around midnight). so short term goals or one day projects have either be really really short or split apart though several days in which time i fall out of love or find something wrong with my work thus shooting myself in the foot.

i get hungup on whether or not my topology will work at retaining volumes and i burn out and as embarassing as it is to say; flat out give up.

how long does it usually take you to model something like "the swimmer" or an under 5k model? are these things that should be doable in under 10 hours?

@ pior good point.

From every project you didn't finish you learned something new. So Apply it to this one. I'm an Environment Artist I do not claim to be a Character Artist. Characters have always looks like fun. I must have done 5 or 6 characters that failed and I never finished them. After my graduation I decided to challenge myself and do a character finally. I would like to think I did a better job than some of the stuff you see in games or at least up to par. I say go for it but plan on putting in a hideous amount of time if you hope for it to turn out. and have it Critiqued constantly! You have no idea dude I tried modeling a chick. Holy crap chicks suck; too damn subtleties (think that's spelled right :/)!

Also, if you wanna grow, why not just do quick zbrush sculpts using the base head mesh? This way you can hone in on a skill. As for a quick one-day or one weekend project go for something quick, generic, just to get the "I finished something" attitude going.

Don't get hung up on the individual brush stroke, look at the whole painting. Who gives a flying poop about a wonky area of topology, move on to the next stage. Get the whole thing done then go back for polish. Post it for crits.

I totally understand about the kids thing: most of the time working on any of my projects, my newborn is in my lap, eating or sleeping. My 6 year old is driving my wife nuts, and I have a niece and a nephew who are PITA's. 10 of us in one house and it can feel hectic.

Oh, if you're hanging on to all these little un-finished projects, either commit to finishing them, archive them somewhere or just delete it. Having old shit that's unfinished hanging around can affect your attitude.

Ill also chime in by saying, characters are not the easiest thing to start off with man, Heres my little story, im not sure if it will help but here it is for you.

Making a character outside of your daily routine can easily take up weeks and weeks of your meagre spare time, and it can be overwhelming really quickly.

In my past I was overwhelmed with :

1) Lack of technical understanding to achieve what i wanted.
2) Would reach a point where i realised i couldnt get across my idea and loose faith
3) Get frustrated at everyone else pumping stuff faster and better than i could

And slowly that list got bigger and more frustrating, but then i realised that i was trying to tackle too many goals at the same time. An instant recipe for disaster.

So i tried smaller things, props for my characters, a chair and table where they might sit, perhaps a sword or weapon they might use, maybe a treasure chest, simple test cases for me to learn and build up my confidence with the tools, and the tech and at the same time not put a huge strain on by jumping straight to a character. It can also lead you to confusing thoughts or even NOT enjoying what your doing at all - which is totally not where you want to be at when your first starting a project!!

So thats how i got around it man, i made my goals smaller, and tried to tackle one thing at a time, this allowed me to slowly build up a love and enjoyment of creating what i create.

I think Pior's idea can work really well too - put the limits on yourself as much as you can until you build up confidence in being able to finish things and move on

Perhaps plan ahead, make a long term goal, something realistic. Then break it up into small steps, 1 day project type of things like pior mentioned. Then just go down the line step by step, one by one and don't look back. Eventually you'll get something done.

I only have one thing to say. Start a model, texture it, bone it (hah) and pose it. It doesn't matter how bad it may (or may not) be. It's not that you should take any great happiness from saying "I finished a model", that's not very important.

What is important is that when you texture the model, you'll realize where you did good work on the geometry and uv's and where you should improve on your next model. When you bone (hah!) the model, you'll realize where your geometry is clean and efficient and where you fucked it up. When you pose it, you'll realize where you need to work on and pay more attention to the next time you create a model.

I think you should finish some stuff, even to a substandard final quality and learn from your mistakes, because frankly, if you don't finish them you don't get to see the parts of the model where you need to be careful for when you want to do something that you're going to love.

It's all about learning through trial and error imo, if you don't make enough trials (and errors) you're not learning enough.

on the Toddler front I have some xp. My wife and I trade "free" days usually for movies...you could do the same thing for day projects..just make sure you have a door you can close...or have them take the munchkin out for the day..Course that's assuming you are not a single parent.

I know the feeling and I'm sure everyone else does as well. I don't think anyone is ever 100% satisfied with the result of what they made but it's what makes us grow and gives us the motivation to move on to the next project.

Staying motivated on a project is just a labor of love. Instead of looking at it as a whole character you could take your desire of wanting everything to be part of something bigger and use it to your advantage. One week model a gun, another day model a holster, feeling frisky one weekend and knock out a head, some shoes another weekend. Each of those pieces have the potential to be their own entity as well as being part of something bigger.

I know what you mean with wanting everything to be something bigger, something that gives meaning or has a message but a lot of the things we make won't. However they all have the possibility to be bitching portfolio pieces. Sometimes you have to set aside that desire to be an artist that creates these meaningful pieces and just make something.

I stopped reading at the lowercase i.

If your text is unbearable then I really can understand why you've not finished a model without even reading it. I'm no grammar nazi either.

Plainly put; put time into doing things right and you get something out of it at the end. In this case it would be putting some time into making your case easier to read.

I agree with hawken.

I also agree with pior, this happens a lot when people go in guns blazing with a huge grand vision that would actually take a small army of artists to complete. They are focused on speed and "I'll clean that up later" or "its just a block out who cares".

Speed should come after quality has been met. Once you can do the job, work on doing it faster.

Like pior said trim down that vision, focus on completing quality results and don't worry about speed or organization.

It's never a good time to clean it up so you probably put it off till later, don't be sloppy in the beginning and you won't get to the point of "this could be awesome but I was so sloppy and in such a hurry its like starting from scratch".

It might help to record your progress as you go. Then go back over it and think about what you could change. It can help to think about it like writing a tutorial, somethings become painfully clear when you break them down step by step or review the footage.

I can't remember seeing anything you've done so I can't say for certain but you probably need to work on your critical artistic eye skills. Being able to break down whats wrong with your stuff is probably more important as being able to dream up amazing stuff. Chances are you'll be creating a vision dreamed up by someone else...

There are too many things that can't be done in 10 hours , a good character with quality is impossible to do in a short fraction of time, that's for sure. 3D needs too much time and work (and more now, so many normal maps, hi-poly and shaders), and it produces too much frustration because we put work and more work, and we don't see the end. Tools may have improved, but the work is heavier now.

Nobody spent 10 hours sitted on a chair without getting up (only those fools of wow/mmo games and a few more), you need to eat and change airs, so you can lose the concentration you started with. To stay more than 4 hours sitted is bad. And of course, to stay too many hours in a computer is not very good, it's horrible! and it can cost you a huge depression.. the worst: loss of vision. If you feel apathy for all, then, you could say you are depressed, so you need to disconect...

Like you, and like almost all, i have dozens and dozens of models without finishing (texturing). If you want to finish something, just focus on one and that's all, put work all the days. Don't worry if you spent 1, 2 or more days, constancy and patience are keys. We usually "procrastinate" because we are bored or because we don't like what we do... so the best advice i can give you, is not to start with silly ideas, at the end, you will regret of them. I like to start all the things on the paper, it's the best filter.

Small and easy projects maybe good, but the compensation won't be enough if you are aiming for something greater.

I usally don't do anything related to 3D on weekends. I really need to disconnect. When we are working in 3D, our "hobby" won't be the same.

All the friends i have in the industry stopped doing personal works when they became professionals

I think Hazardous has it right. Start with a really small project. Something that will seem ridiculously easy, like a chair or a small weapon. Perhaps just boning a single hand. Mentally, you will think it is too easy, but when you actually do it, you will find that it is harder than you imagined. You will learn from the practice, and you will have accomplished something that you can be (relatively) proud of.

It's unfortunate, but as artists, we seem to be our own worst critics, so I don't know that you will ever complete something that will make you jump up and down for joy. But you can at least gain the satisfaction that you finished something and, since it was small, you were able to do a good level of quality.

Sorry about the lack of capitalization in my posts.
I think a major problem is I've never "paid my dues" so to speak and followed a tutorial to fully create a character that I didn't design. Perhaps it's my trying to go right into making my own models from the ground up that has been the biggest obstacle in my way.
I'm thinking it's well overdue that I invest in one of those game character creation DVD's and just follow along. I haven't had any luck with free online tutorials being most of them don't acknowlegde a butt being torn to pieces from simply lifting a leg forward as being problem. The max tutorial (at least in 200 doesn't go over skinning a model well either.
I'm always hesitant to spend money on things and I've been put off by the pricetags on training DVD's in the past but I think this would be a worthwhile investment at this point because my frustration is starting to really outweigh my enthusiasm.

At this point does anybody have any dvd recommendations? I'm thinking it would be best if I learned from a last gen (ps2 era) character making DVD as I'm really not looking to get bogged down by scripting right off the bat.

Thanks for your replies.

Maybe figuring out if you'd actually prefer to model and texture a character, or skin and rig one would help you complete more projects and give you a sense of achievement, as opposed to trying to learn both simultaneously.

I'm sure there are plenty of character artists that can model, texture, skin and rig their own models, but I'm wondering how prevalent such practices actually are in a production environment?

Well yeah Blaizer is right, not 10 hours without standing up haha
But let's say you start your day at 10 am on a sunday ... spend maybe 2 hours concepting and looking at cool refs ... it's very possible to come up with a mini project, maybe diffuse only, that can be tackled in one afternoon. Check out simple stuff like MegamanZero references, BOLD things.

Without a doubt I prefer modeling and texturing to rigging and skinning. It's the rigging and skinning that kills it for me and removes the joy from the process. I have absolutely no problem with the actually modeling phase and I've even emulated edgeloops I've seen on models that move well it's just that I can't skin my models to move the same way.
The more I think about it, the more obvious it becomes that,it's only the rigging that I have trouble with. If my models have identical edgeloops at deformation points as models that deform well, that means the problem is in my rigging and skinning.
I've mistakenly scrapped so many of my projects thinking that the problem was at the root level when it was really at the end. It's like losing all your lives and getting a game over at the last stage of a game and blaming your failure on your performance in the first levels (which by this point you've memorized and could do blind folded since you've been playing through those first stages for 5 years.)
Maybe what would work best for me is to create as many different characters to just before the rigging and boning stages and just try to tackle them all together so I can focus full steam on modeling and texturing all my assets and then full steam on rigging.
Hell, maybe someone who's great with rigging will see my work and like it enough to actually want to rig it for me. Then I'd have something to go off of or better yet, a partnership I could actually depend on.

What about creating a few simple shapes and rigging them to see where the problem is. Then grab a readymesh basemesh and rig that too to see where the problems are. Also if you segment stuff smartly rigging can be extremely fast.

Also if you don't want to export to an engine with real animations, you can very well create poses without a rig. You can try the new zspheres2 rigging too.

quite frankly it sounds like you don't know yourself. pardon me for being presumptuous, but:

You've finished every thing that you've ever done-- when you make a model, you probably do it for the creative idea. when you've explored it to the degree that you're interested in, you're done. in that sense, the impulse that created the model was run to it's completion. you're finished.

here's the thing -- finishing something is a completely different emotional domain. you have to find the part of you that wants to finish things and exersize THAT. the different parts of us grow when we exersize them.

what Pior is saying is genious here -- start small. do something really small just for the sake of FINISHING.. when you get accomplished at that you can tackle bigger projects that require bigger and bigger parts of you.

that's how i did it... and i've made a few video games so far, so i'm getting good at finishing shit.

Rigging can be a daunting task for someone who is an artist first and foremost. Like pior mentioned, there's other ways of posing a character without rigging it. Transpose that bitch and be done with it...you'd be surprised at the flexibility it gives you. It also sounds like you're getting ahead of yourself and psyching yourself out before you can get into the groove of things.

Dont think about the rigging and other aspects you dont enjoy doing at first. Focus on your modeling, sculpting, UVing, texturing, etc. and cross each bridge as you get there. I also dont like rigging...but that's only b/c I'm not good at it. I think it's really important to be as open minded as possible to learning new things, however. Facing new challenges can either be fun or a pain in the ass...if you approach the challenge with an open mind, you'd probably surprise yourself with how much you might actually enjoy it. You dont have to be a rigging hero either...learn what you need to in order to rig to pose. Who cares if it doesnt have all these amazing pixar animation controls? Throw a quick rig on it, skin it and baM...be done with it. And like others have mentioned, start small and work yourself up so you can get more acquainted and comfortable with how it all works. Dont psyche yourself out man...just keep it all in perspective ;)

A lot of experience can be gained in doing small projects, then add this experience up to make something grand.

For a recent example - although not in modeling - I didn't know anything about Drupal (a content management system) but knew I wanted to make a very complex website. So I installed Drupal and just messed around with it a few times, then I started to do very low level experiments to see if the grand idea I had could even work. Eventually I moved on to using this accumulated knowledge on a project.

The same goes for modeling a character. Rigging had always been something I faced with dread. But after following a tutorial a few times, and not fearing the results, I gained the fundamental knowledge of how to rig - it took a few more times at stripping things down, re-doing everything from scratch - but once this knowledge is accumulated it works for the bigger picture.

Some very good advice in this thread.

Why not jump in on the next challenge we have?

Don't know anything about zsphere's being used for rigging myself. I'm guessing it's a new feature in zbrush 3.5. I do like using transpose in zbrush but the one problem is posing a model that's part of a larger composition (including a background or other characters) which is much more easily handled on the composition end in 3dsmax (the downside being having to use bones.)
@hawken:
I definitely need to take the time and work through a tutorial DVD and get a good foundation going.
I wanted to do the last lowpoly challenge but the ideas I ended up having were all sci-fi
Currently, I'm working on a 2d entry for this years Unearthly Challenge
( http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=66515)
which will actually mark my first visual art piece I've completed for a long time.
If anyone knows any books/dvd's I should invest in tutorial wise, please let me know.

Thanks.

well, if you feel insecure about deformation, why dont you experiment first?
eg build just a simple dummy leg, rig it, and see how it deforms.
as a next step apply your gained knowledge onto a more complex model.

take a look in the lowpoly section.
lowpolys are lots of fun and can be build in just some hours.

Couldnt you just collaborate with someone to rig it for you? You cant expect to do everything, provide some kind of incentive, ask other artists/animators or is that not the done thing?