Quality of life vs. crunch
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An interesting video from the last IGDA Leadership Forum... [ame="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7344863953591545577&hl=en"]"Studio Heads on the Hotseat"[/ame]
Prompted some heated discussion about crunch on the private The Chaos Engine forum and spilling over onto the public IGDA forum.
These kinds of discussions really seem to be cyclical, and don't go anywhere, at least as far as real change to industry practices. Some people are totally into crunch or overtime, others totally against it. I can see both sides, I'm totally excited by my work and I love to do it for long hours at a stretch, but I also love my time outside work and understand that non-work time is essential to keep me charged up at work (not to mention the others in my life).
Prompted some heated discussion about crunch on the private The Chaos Engine forum and spilling over onto the public IGDA forum.
These kinds of discussions really seem to be cyclical, and don't go anywhere, at least as far as real change to industry practices. Some people are totally into crunch or overtime, others totally against it. I can see both sides, I'm totally excited by my work and I love to do it for long hours at a stretch, but I also love my time outside work and understand that non-work time is essential to keep me charged up at work (not to mention the others in my life).
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I took offense at the comment that professionals don't work a 40hr work week. I'm a salaryman and I work a 40hr work week. I have a good boss, though.
... That's not Trav, Ian, and Kelly... that's too funny. -_-
I'm not sure about any of you guys but I served 4 years in the military and did 2 deployments to the middle east and each of those was for 6 months at a time. Plus all the 2-3 week excursions for training, the 5-6 week ones every so often and countless nights that I had to spend on the ship I was on because something had to be done.
I gladly spend that time now doing what I do here because it's my dream job making art for games. I make a good amount of money for something that I consider to almost be a hobby that I get paid for.
Crunch or long hours isn't for everyone but some of us actually don't mind dedicating ourselves to the long hours to make a game or product the best that it can be.
Mostly I'm OCD and pushing extra hours beyond what I'm required to do because I think it is necessary and because I care deeply about pushing as far as I'm capable of.
Sometimes my physical and mental health suffers as a result, other times I'm just totally elated and stoked at the end of the exhaustion, sitting getting render happy in max and just basking in my own sense of accomplishment.... which lasts until sleep and the morning after sends me back down and I need to climb again with the next piece.
I think my mentality is pretty common here, I love to work, I get to make art as well as artifice and they pay me extra for working extra because the people in charge know their job and can perceive when people are making a difference.
I felt differently when working in a similar fashion at places that could not or would not share the wealth or lacked the experience to perceive what made a difference. I don't need to feel that way here though.
Exactly. Thanks for giving your input on this Kevin.
Do they accept your time spent there as passion or obsession or OCD or whatever and just live with it? Do they simply say "well he's makin bank so whatevs!" Or does it make life strained for them?
Even though I dearly love making videogames I have other loves in life too. I love my girlfriend, I love music, I love my car, I love playing guitar, I love a lot of things. If my job said "sorry you only have time to love us and if you love anything else you're just not dedicated." then I would walk away from them in a heart beat. And for them to turn around and say "well dude sure it's sacrifice but check out all these benjamins!" Then I get even more confused at their definition of passion.
nonetheless.. working too much in front of the pc is not good for your body-health, mental-health and your 'social-health'
I come home for dinner, put the girls to bed, tell my wife I love her and then go back to work so really, they don't miss out of so much, its just me that misses out on a fuller life outside work and family for a while.
No its not easy and no its not perfect but it works. Its the work that balances my personality and makes me fulfilled enough in my sense of self that I can be the father and husband I need to be. I mean, if I sit for a few days in a row without doing anything creative I tend to get cranky and have the fidgets!
I do arts and crafts, read a lot, watch a lot of movies, I don't travel so much anymore but theres lots of day trips to mueseums , parks, beaches etc and I'm generally disinterested in a lot of the past times I used to enjoy.
Here in the south the pub life I loved so much is missing, as is the humour and depth but I get that through literature instead.
Theres no right way to live a life. Theres what suits you and what doesn't.
I still work out twice a day for half an hour and that keeps my endorphin level topped up and ensures I don't lose my balance.
Its ALL about balance. I generally work from 8/8.30am to 5/5.30pm, until something is going wrong or something is feeling just so damn good I want to take it further. Then I bring stuff home and after all the ladies are in bed I spend a few more hours working, sometimes I do that over the weekend too.
Official crunch, prolonged crunch comes around near the end of each project and I just try to keep my balance and get through it. It's always harder to crunch when you have to, rather than when you just want to
Will I want to keep up this pace forever? Nah I doubt it, but im having a lot of fun right now and living the life I want to live and the people I care about all extremely happy, safe and comfortable.
I disagree with people declaring that everyone has to crunch together all the time. There are multiple times in the dev cycle where certain departments are waiting on other departments to get their work checked in. To say that when my department is done with their tasks and sitting around trying to occupy their time, that we have to be there while the other departments are finishing up their tasks . to make everyone feel good is ridiculous. To also say that if we arent there means that we dont care is baloney. I take personal pride in all of my work, even on pieces that I dont care for. Because its my trade, its my work. If something is bad or not 100% that reflects on me. We know people see our product; we want to make it great.
There are companies that plan properly and minimize crunch time. They put importance on keeping their employees happy and refreshed. They get the job done and they do it well.
At the end of the day it is just a job, granted a highly coveted job but we arent curing a disease here. I take pride in what I do and I get the job done. It still does not come before family. My job is not my life; it is a piece of it.
Words to live by.
QFT
I don't work at a studio with a lot of crunch time because I like having a life outside of that. That doesn't mean I haven't lived 3d 24/7 before, or that I wont do it again. I see the appeal of it, I have the kind of personality that loves to be immersed in something completely. Starting an indy dev in my garage and working nonstop on a game for months appeals to me, just not right now.
If working 12 hours a day 7 days a week on a game makes you happy, then rock the fuck on. If you like putting in your 8 hours and then going camping or something, then rock the fuck on. They key is knowing what what kind of life you want, and getting it for yourself.
I don't plan on doing this my entire life but like Kevin I am enjoying it right now so we shall see what the future brings.
I mean, every POV in this thread is valid, but for us, spending a little too long in front of the PC isn't really a big concern in the scheme of things right ?
I suppose also, as much as I enjoy my routine atm, I do fantasize about a time further ahead where I don't need to bother so much. I'd like to get back to doing this stuff as a hobbyist again some day because NOTHING beats the raw sense of satisfaction that comes from sitting around doing nothing....
..... then being inspired by something around you, or a thought or memory you chance upon, music in the air, the sound of kids outside, a chapter in a book, a comment froma loved on or whatever it is....
....then acting on that inspiration within the that moment , just playing around and making something, no real plan where you are going, just following the feeling, expressing yourself for your own satisfaction and system of merit
It really is a shame we need money.
Yet, Epic does come off looking bad in all this. I'm not sure if it will matter - I'd still keep them near the top of my list if/when I was looking for work. But, I'd definitely have some extra questions during my interview.
Passion is great, and it absolutely is a key ingredient in making games. Yet, if you think really carefully about how many extra hours EXACTLY you are getting from mandatory crunch, and you compare that to the kinds of thank you statements that I read in the Gears 2 credits . . . . you have to be sure that it's a fair trade. I'll give Epic the benefit of the doubt - by all indications they reward people very well for their extra labor, and they make their culture known up front.
In addition, I can get behind the idea of doing a little extra work to avoid over-staffing. A company too big is worse than a company too small.
In the end, I hope Capps and Epic come out and clarify what they are about, if only because Capps is an IGDA board member.
Yes I went there.
Haha Oh no you didn't! I can totally see it now.
So yeah, when someone from epic says that they only employed ambitious, dedicated people, that doesn't surprise me at all, nor does it bring up any negative connotations.
Its one thing to work your fingers to the bone for some no-name company, on a project that may never see the light of day, working towards bonuses that will never be there. But its an entirely different thing to do it for a place like epic, where they have a proven track record, and apparently take care of their employees quite well.
Obviously not everyone is in an either-or situation here, but i definitely think that there are many factors that could make the long hours worth it, in the right situation.
No! What needs to happen is for people to stop saying 'change will only happen when tons of people...' That is NEVER the case for change when one side is so obviously and completely on the side of fairness and equality. It takes a few people to stand up, no matter what. And it takes a few more people who know they have at least those few people there with them. And maybe some more, less risk-taking people, will stand up because more people are standing up. If you are waiting for it to happen, you are... just waiting for it to happen. I'm honestly sick of hearing this opinion, these excuses. What are you waiting for? More experience? A worse situation? A time when you are more 'ready' to stand up?
It doesn't mean you have to be a dick and it doesn't mean you refuse to crunch- I am the only member of the animation team who crunches (I'm the only one that occasionally needs to because of my many hats which sometimes conflict), but I take the strongest stance against it. I hope to have some essay about QoL ready for GDC... but this sort of thing really upsets me, especially from young people who have the most to gain and least to lose.
I hear rumors that some guys even get paid a "livable wage" too.
1) Obsession and/or ability to throw away your life for a company = passion.
2) Money cures all and no where else will pay you to work normally.
Anyone can spend 80 hours a week at work, but by no means does that mean that they are contributing anything even remotely worth while in all those extra hours. Nothing says that by staying some place for a certain time you will magically contribute awesomeness and success. By that same rule it's entirely possible that you could spend 30 hours a week at work and contribute the most awesome passionately created work that makes everything better. Passion isn't a factor of time or a co-dependent of it, merely a trait that can make things better (and sometimes worse).
Additionally, all the passion in the world wont make you a better artist or designer or whatever by default. It doesn't equal free creativity and skill. I've known plenty of people that only cause disaster when they get too passionate about something and turn a blind eye to everything else around them.
Kevin you've said twice something to the effect of "if only we didn't need money then I wouldn't have to do this." But there are plenty of companies that dont expect you to crunch for the hell of it and will still pay you enough to live happily. Sure you wont be staring at massive bonuses but do you really NEED those? This isn't an attack on you as a person, just a question targeted at a sentiment that seems to be somewhat common.
That said, I'm extremely confused how 8am-5pm, while making time for two workouts, then a little work afterward is working overtime. If those are decent workouts you'd be looking at less than 8 hour days...Do other Epic employees with more "passion" look down on you for that? Or do they just compensate you less generously than those staying until "kicked out at 2am."
Going back to the video; did anyone else get the impression that these guys have all completely lost touch with humanity? They sound like CEOs of banks and the auto industry the way they talk. The one guy actually said we are experiencing "the worst economy in the history of man kind." What the HELL? Did he fall asleep in history class? And the guy from the THQ buy-out, claiming that no one in his company was afraid of being shut down while THQ subsidiaries were being wiped off the map one by one, then further going on to say that they were wiped out because they were dead weight?
When we DO crunch, because we need to meet an aggressive deadline we have a policy in place to ensure people don't work past a certain time at night.
We don't even need to come in to the office until 1.30pm, we just have to do 8 hours and we have to be there for the 'core' hours of 1.30 to 5pm and make up the hours how we like as long as we are there for the core hours and doing our 40 hours a week.
When we do crunch we tend to do 10 hours a day for a few weeks, 5 days a week, then as we get really close to the last deadlines, we up that to 12 hours, 5 days a week for a couple of weeks or so , then , MAYBE, we have to do 5 hours on a saturday as well if its required.
On top of that, I and most others don't put in the extra hours beyond whats required for the money, we do it for the love of what we are doing, the money is just an easy way to validate that effort to people outside of the company, or the industry, who DO simply see it as throwing away our life. I focussed on that point because thats what I was asked in this thread!
The bottom line here is that we do the work, if we can do that within the more regular 9-5 hours a day, great, if we do it by coming in really late, taking a couple hours worth of breaks and end up leaving around midnight, great, whatever works for the person's nature is the real core attitude.
Obviously I dont work there and you do; his words that went un-denied at first implied staying late all the time in the name of passion. Your hours and this most recent description don't really go in line with that. This description sounds much more like a normal company (albeit with rather late starting core hours), working 8 hours a day then ramping up for deadlines with the obvious notable difference of very healthy bonuses to make up for it.
In trying to get to the root of my confusion, do you consider this description to adequately define what Mike was talking about in the video; as well as to define the type of work schedule that would be considered "passionate + long hours" ? Or is he operating with a voice that is somewhat detached from the "real" situation at Epic?
Once again, I do apologize if anything I say comes off as rude or insensitive; I am just trying to get the most direct and accurate information as possible. I appreciate your and others insight on the matter.
Looking at it that way is fine in the situation you are in- but I guarantee, if you had those 'aggressive deadlines' still, but had no reward to it, you'd feel very differently. Because suddenly you are doing extra work for people who scheduled poorly and are forcing you to work extra, without any input or reward. And just as importantly, they have no reason to stop doing what they are doing (read: this is managers taking advantage of employees). So you can say you do it for the love of what you are doing- I am sure you are- and it doesn't have to be about money. But the issue of money/compensation has a very important place in the discussion of crunch. It invests people in their work (with encourages quality) and provides no stimulation to uncompensated crunch/exploitation (because managers aren't getting free work).
I agree. that was the situation in all the past places I worked. WE actually had mandatory crunch one time, for all departments, even though it was only the LDs who were very behind (i wont name the company). I asked why, and was told it was to keep moral up. Furthermore, We were told we would get bonuses, but it was going to be almost a year after the game shipped. I didnt stay to find out, but something tells me they either didnt get them, or it was small. The game in question didnt sell much. maybe .5 mil.
I wanted to chime in here as a relatively new employee at epic. I have been there for 8 months now, and I put in about 60 hours a week. I still have plenty of free time, and I put in that time because I want too.
It's hard to explain why, but I can say that no one is making me, and I don't feel like I need to. I want to. This is a place where everyone who works there is extremely good at what they do. I think that kind of environment leads itself to that passion to excel.
I think what Capps said is true. People here have passion. We want to do the best work we can.
I come in late, around the 1:00 pm mark, I work til about 6, go home for an hour, spend time with my girl and eat dinner, then go back til about 12-1.
again, its hard for me to express in writing. but simply, its a smaller team, and efforts don't go unnoticed like many many places. The work you do is seen by all artists bi-weekly, and there is a real want to impress. I think everyone here has a comfortable life. I started at the beginning of the gears 2 crunch. and honestly, the crunch here was normal-ish hours at the previous place I was working. Except I was working on an amazing title, that would ship, and sell millions, and I was told up front, before I was hired about the bonus plan.
also, the benefits are amazing. This company makes sure you are well taken care of, not just in compensation, but in other things like the 401k profit sharing, the amazing medical etc.
this write-up is kinda crap, Im not a good wordsmith. Listen to Kevin, his writing is way better
Another way to look at the video is to just watch the difference between the woman who runs the non profit organization, and the guy whose organization just sold almost 5 million copies of their product inside 4months.
1 side says 'no you should never crunch, its just bad', the other says 'hey if you want to do really well, you need to crunch'. Good business is built on being able to offer something more than the competition does, so we work harder, we make a better games, it sells better and we are afforded the chance to improve because our system supports the necessary stability to do that.
In the middle of this world economy collapse, while I'm daily depressed and humbled by the adversity most of the people I know are having to deal with, I'm sitting in complete comfort and stability with a future full of cool games ahead that ought to sell as well as the one we just shipped.
I'm pretty certain that Mike's attitudes are part of the dynamic that makes our success possible. It's just not the whole story, like I'm trying to communicate here.