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Stirls's Avatar
Old (#1)
How many of you use MD on a regular basis? Anyone have a workflow/tips to share?
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Suba's Avatar
Old (#2)
I never used it so I'm really interrested in this thread.

If you don't mind I would also like to add some questions.
Is it a must skill to have to work in studios? Which studios actually use it? Is it a standard workflow software now?
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luthyn's Avatar
Old (#3)
Marvelous is definitely becoming more popular throughout studios, and is becoming more of a go to solution for cloth simulation. If you are a character artist, it would be silly to not at least look into it and give it a go. I personally love the software and have found it immensely helpful in dealing with any type of cloth for both character and environment work.

The learning curve isn't too bad, and there are enough tutorials out there to get you started. I can direct you to some of the ones that helped me if you like. What is key is understanding how actual clothing patterns work. Yes, you can just draw quick shapes and get them onto your character, but the more accurate you draw your patterns, the better your results will be.

As for workflow, what specifically are you looking into making? A simple shirt is always a good place to start, even if you are an environment artist. Download some of the free patterns here http://www.marvelousdesigner.com/market/?category=7 and look at how they drew the patterns and how similar the measurements are between elements (length of the lines that will be stitched together should be the same or damn close).

Also the MD forums themselves are a very useful resource. There are some answers you will get there that other forums like Polycount don't seem to have, and users such as Rosemaryr are really pushing the program to its limits: http://www.marvelousdesigner.com/mem...erid=Rosemaryr .

The biggest downside is that currently MD does not export quads, so you have to go through a few hoops to get the mesh workable once out of MD itself. But between ZBrush and Maya there are plenty of ways to do this.

As for studios, officially Konami, EA, Capcom, Naughty Dog, Ubisoft, Microsoft. This page: http://www.marvelousdesigner.com/cases/clients.aspx

Um..but yea. Ha, what are you looking into making?
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dustinbrown's Avatar
Old (#4)
It's absolutely being used in studios - primarily studios who do realistic styled games, which is a lot of them.

I'm learning to use it out of necessity, but I hate it. I enjoy sculpting cloth, so it completely takes the joy out of the process for me. The biggest hurdle is learning your way around the software. It doesn't take a great deal of skill to copy some existing patterns (you can literally trace them), sew it all together, press the sim button, and tease the cloth around a little until you get something that looks good.

It's fussy, technical, grunt work. Or at least it will be once everyone is familiar with how to use it, and that particular skill isn't viewed as such a rare commodity. And with it being freely distributed through torrent sites, I have no doubt that day is coming soon.

From a business perspective it's a no-brainer though. The time saved by using Marvelous vs the time it takes *most* people to sculpt a similar result speaks for itself. There are a hand full of folks out there who are really fast at sculpting realistic looking cloth, but they are the minority by far.
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kurt_hectic's Avatar
Old (#5)
It's very useful piece of software. You all really should try it out.

There is plenty of tiny thing...but mainly, for now I can only only recomment to pay attestation to the SCALE. Make test bakes end export them to the engine. In my case I had to rescale my model 3x to get good results (wrinkles size).
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Stirls's Avatar
Old (#6)
Some of the stuff I saw from that Naughty Dog character artist who created characters from The Last of Us used it, I'm pretty sure. Wouldn't surprise me if he/her just sculpted it all by hand, though..

luthyn, a big, thick WWII jacket. Something I know MD can't execute very well (straight-up, that is). Thanks for the links, too.

I'm in the camp that would love to learn how to sculpt cloth, but doesn't really have the time to do so. Totally want to get into that, however!

Good responses, guys.
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Torch's Avatar
Old (#7)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stirls View Post
Some of the stuff I saw from that Naughty Dog character artist who created characters from The Last of Us used it, I'm pretty sure. Wouldn't surprise me if he/her just sculpted it all by hand, though..
If you're talking about Mike Knowland I'm pretty sure he sculpted all of his cloth work. Another one to check out is Mashru Mishu
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SuperFranky's Avatar
Old (#8)
If you can sew or know someone who can, it's worth it. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother. It's not something you can just hack your way into.
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Stirls's Avatar
Old (#9)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperFranky View Post
If you can sew or know someone who can, it's worth it. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother. It's not something you can just hack your way into.
I have a cousin in the fashion industry.. but I doubt they'd like me to bother them everytime I want a jacket layout. I think I might just try using the folds in MD as reference for sculpting.

Torch, I'll definitely check him out!
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LRoy's Avatar
Old (#10)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperFranky View Post
If you can sew or know someone who can, it's worth it. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother. It's not something you can just hack your way into.
Yes it is.
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Dylan Brady's Avatar
Old (#11)
yeah, one good way to 'hack' your way into it is to just import an obj as cloth.
so with that technique you don't need to deal with any of the pattern making. if you just want a shirt you modeled to have some kool simulated folds its perfect. you can fuck around with the pins to get stuff to bunch up/hang from spots.
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Stirls's Avatar
Old (#12)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan Brady View Post
yeah, one good way to 'hack' your way into it is to just import an obj as cloth.
so with that technique you don't need to deal with any of the pattern making. if you just want a shirt you modeled to have some kool simulated folds its perfect. you can fuck around with the pins to get stuff to bunch up/hang from spots.
Wait... WHAT?!

You can import .obj files to be simulated like cloth? Damn it!
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JohnnyRaptor's Avatar
Old (#13)
yeah but its super limited at the moment, where it literally only runs a physics sim on it. no other options really.
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luthyn's Avatar
Old (#14)
Yea, if you want to learn about sculpting, I think that messing around in MD a bit to study what the fabric is doing is worth the time. Then you can just export that out quickly and take it into ZBrush to mess with.

One quick side perk, you can use any patterns you draw as the UVs of your mesh. So, that might come in handy via transfer attributes or something.
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SuperFranky's Avatar
Old (#15)
Quote:
Originally Posted by LRoy View Post
Yes it is.
You can do t-shirts, easy stuff like pants or something fairly easy. But fitting and pattern making is a whole new level of complication. Try making a good looking and fitting trench coat or something and you'll see how fast it can get out of control if you know nothing about this stuff. But what if you want something that isn't realistic? First and foremost it's a sewing tool and very realistic at that.

But I hope you can prove me wrong. I have spent a fair amount of time researching this stuff before giving up on it.
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stry's Avatar
Old (#16)
SuperFranky, Liberal use of google and hunting down sewing patterns is a great way to "hack your way into it." Why would anyone just start winging it without google and prior sewing knowledge in this day and age?

I don't know what you mean with unrealistic clothes. The materials would be alien? Or making something for a humanoid with six arms? Making heightened and stylized things is tricky, but why would you then use software like this?
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Swizzle's Avatar
Old (#17)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperFranky View Post
If you can sew or know someone who can, it's worth it. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother. It's not something you can just hack your way into.
I'm going to have to completely disagree with this. While it's pretty difficult to just jump into with no prior knowledge, you can get excellent results in no time if you are willing to do some legwork and invest in learning how clothes are really put together.

Here's something I made with absolutely zero experience with sewing or pattern making:


I used that jacket as a test to determine if using MD was worth the time and money, and I've decided it absolutely is. It involves learning an entirely new set of skills, but it's going to save me so much time in the long run that the initial time investment is essentially nothing.
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bb0x's Avatar
Old (#18)
Yeah I agree. After watching some of the vids they published on how to work with Marvelous Designer, it was pretty easy to start making some clothes.

Honestly the way I see it, it is basically creating UV shells and the app takes care of "modelling".
They way I set up the UV for any character/clothes is basically putting seams on the seams of clothes anyway, so I don't think it would be too difficult to set things up even if you dont have any "sewing" experience.
If you have a decent bit of experience with UVíng and using LSDM, you probably already know most of the pattern shapes that you need to set up.


The only things I wish MD did was some kind of simulation for "memory folds" and that the base humanoid mesh wasnt 100% rigid.
Like it would look allot more real if the base meshes got deformed as well when using really tight clothes. For example if you'd make a "push up" bra in MD it doesnt actually affect the breasts on a woman(or men) at all.
It's great for loose clothes, not so much for tight fitting clothes imo.

Last edited by bb0x; 07-04-2014 at 04:47 PM..
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Suba's Avatar
Old (#19)
Quote:
Originally Posted by luthyn View Post
Marvelous is definitely becoming more popular throughout studios, and is becoming more of a go to solution for cloth simulation. If you are a character artist, it would be silly to not at least look into it and give it a go. I personally love the software and have found it immensely helpful in dealing with any type of cloth for both character and environment work.

The learning curve isn't too bad, and there are enough tutorials out there to get you started. I can direct you to some of the ones that helped me if you like. What is key is understanding how actual clothing patterns work. Yes, you can just draw quick shapes and get them onto your character, but the more accurate you draw your patterns, the better your results will be.

As for workflow, what specifically are you looking into making? A simple shirt is always a good place to start, even if you are an environment artist. Download some of the free patterns here http://www.marvelousdesigner.com/market/?category=7 and look at how they drew the patterns and how similar the measurements are between elements (length of the lines that will be stitched together should be the same or damn close).

Also the MD forums themselves are a very useful resource. There are some answers you will get there that other forums like Polycount don't seem to have, and users such as Rosemaryr are really pushing the program to its limits: http://www.marvelousdesigner.com/mem...erid=Rosemaryr .

The biggest downside is that currently MD does not export quads, so you have to go through a few hoops to get the mesh workable once out of MD itself. But between ZBrush and Maya there are plenty of ways to do this.

As for studios, officially Konami, EA, Capcom, Naughty Dog, Ubisoft, Microsoft. This page: http://www.marvelousdesigner.com/cases/clients.aspx

Um..but yea. Ha, what are you looking into making?
Damn, thank you for all the info. I'll looking into it too then.
I guess it is more useful to learn how to make folds like Michael Knowland, but after watching some tutorials, it would not take that long to know how to use MD, and all the big studios are using it apparently. I had no idea it was that used, I always thought it was that weird experimental software that only Hideo Kojima wanted to use. Haha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan Brady View Post
yeah, one good way to 'hack' your way into it is to just import an obj as cloth.
so with that technique you don't need to deal with any of the pattern making. if you just want a shirt you modeled to have some kool simulated folds its perfect. you can fuck around with the pins to get stuff to bunch up/hang from spots.
Fuck, this is a god tier secret tip ! Thank you.
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Stirls's Avatar
Old (#20)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swizzle View Post
I'm going to have to completely disagree with this. While it's pretty difficult to just jump into with no prior knowledge, you can get excellent results in no time if you are willing to do some legwork and invest in learning how clothes are really put together.

Here's something I made with absolutely zero experience with sewing or pattern making:


I used that jacket as a test to determine if using MD was worth the time and money, and I've decided it absolutely is. It involves learning an entirely new set of skills, but it's going to save me so much time in the long run that the initial time investment is essentially nothing.
Great replies here, guys. Really informative. Swizzle, that is a marvellous turnout! I don't suppose you'd mind sharing the pattern made to create that, or the values you used to make it less "bouncy"? Even if I have the perfect pattern laid out, it'll always return to a bouncy, almost frock-like look around a majority of the model.
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stry's Avatar
Old (#21)
Stirls, Have you tried changing the Fabric properties, like stiffness, thickness, and stretching?
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Stirls's Avatar
Old (#22)
Indeed I have. However, I'll fool around with it a bit more. It's just a bit of a time sink when you spend a while setting up the layout, and it doesn't work/look nice. Found some decent sewing patterns to work with now!
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Torch's Avatar
Old (#23)
Tbh the results can be awesome but I'm kinda with Dustin on this, I just hate the simulation part of it and would much rather sculpt the folds out of preference. Also depends on the results you want, type of fabric, etc.

I would like to one day get to a point where I could sculpt cloth with good results at a similar speed it would take to create a piece in MD
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Swizzle's Avatar
Old (#24)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stirls View Post
Great replies here, guys. Really informative. Swizzle, that is a marvellous turnout! I don't suppose you'd mind sharing the pattern made to create that, or the values you used to make it less "bouncy"? Even if I have the perfect pattern laid out, it'll always return to a bouncy, almost frock-like look around a majority of the model.
I didn't realize at first that you could have single lines instead of closed shapes for Internal Shapes, so there's some janky stuff going on here, but here's what the pattern looks like:


As far as settings go, I haven't used anything weird or new. The fabric on this uses the R_Windbreaker_CLO_v1 setting with no customization.

I did end up using two pieces for each sleeve to give it some more volume, though. This involved copying the existing pieces to make an internal lining, mirroring and flipping them around so I could stitch them, then stitching them to the external pieces so it was a dual layered piece. I then stitched the sleeves to the shoulder seam, simulated so they would drape over the arm, and then stitched them to close the sleeve tube. I did similar with the collar, the zipper cover, and the seam at the bottom of the jacket.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torch View Post
I would like to one day get to a point where I could sculpt cloth with good results at a similar speed it would take to create a piece in MD
Honestly, I'm exactly the same way. I absolutely love sculpting fabric and I find it extremely rewarding, but I simply can't beat MD. I'd love to be able to get the kind of quality that it can achieve simply by sculpting stuff in Zbrush, but even then I'd never be able to achieve the same kind of results in anywhere near the same timeframe.
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Stirls's Avatar
Old (#25)
Thanks for that, Swizzle. Really nice looking jacket layout there. Mine looks quite muddled and complex..

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