An opportunities have come up so that i can be more than just an artist.

I have been offered a technical writting position and I am thinking it's going to help me [edit]segue[edit] into my goals within my game artist career. The other opportunity is a project manager position I think I'm ready for, but my problem is artists don' often get to show off anything except art in this business...well? at least in the slice of the industry I have seen artists exposed to (large, medium and small sized companies alike)

Most art managers move up the ladder but have almost no training in scheduling, personelle management and mentoring (mentoring being the one they sometimes have) Which to me are just as essential as the craft that we spend our careers practicing to even get a shot.

I'm currently reading Giuliani's book Leadership which has been a real eye-opener, a maxscirpt book, a course on technical writting and editing, and teaching workshops at art colleges whenever I can. I am trying to develop some skills to cover all the bases i have seen that make a good lead that won't be easily learned pushing pixels/pulling polygons.

I really want to make these things happen for me, and I am looking for advice on howto do this. What do you all think? Eric C. you're a lead right?

-R

It's sometimes hard to move up the ladder in a larger place, as there are many more people ahead of you who also want to climb. It's often easier to go elsewhere and go directly into a management role.

And you are correct about peopel moving upwards with no skills for the higher position. But what do you want to do? Do you want to be more than an artist?

Oh, and I think you mean segue, not segway, unless you are planning your career moves on an electric scooter. :P

It has been my experience the best leaders are usually the ones who are forced into it versus those that want it. (This is applicable to any job/life).

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Oh, and I think you mean segue, not segway, unless you are planning your career moves on an electric scooter. :P

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Oh, that's what it was? I swear I thought I was seeing the introduction of new slang [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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It has been my experience the best leaders are usually the ones who are forced into it versus those that want it. (This is applicable to any job/life).

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In theory-- and in most kingdom-based fantasy novels, this is true. However I've met plenty of "leaders" who didn't want to be leaders, and therefore shucked the responsibility at every turn. Further, as PaK mentioned, leadership isn't just having your heart in it, it does take some learning and understanding, which is something you have to go after. In order for a reluctant leader to be good, he either has to be the type of guy who is just naturally good with people/understanding scheduling/etc-- or he needs to be the type of person who will devote himself wholeheartedly to doing something he doesn't want to do, which is, to be honest, pretty rare in today's society.

Well, or he needs workers who pretty much do his job for him, and who the best management techniques are to be very hands-off (which is also pretty rare, and also pretty pointless as far as being a manager goes).

Let me just say good luck to you PaK, even though it's not something I would want to do [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I should better define that. I mean the person who knows what leadership encompasses as far as the real responsibility needed. And thus are wary of such a position, but if put into it accept that responsibility.

versus

The person who wants to be a leader because the inherit idea of extra "kudos" and control it gives them. They usually are less likely to accept that responsibility as they shift it to someone else or ignore it.

Best leader for what? Leaders are really subjective matter. You can be total dick to your workers but make a huge profit and shareholders are really happy or opposite.

Hmmm. I first moved into a Lead role because it was a small company and we had no one else to do it. I didn't really cherish the thought of creating less art, but I found it a challenge and that's something I'm always on the lookout for. If my work is challenging then I generally enjoy it.

I had no management experience, had to learn as I went. It really helped me to be in a small company where I could learn from other Leads and from Producers, with very little politics getting in the way.

So I've been in Lead-type roles for a few years. Sometimes taking on just an art-only role, but that became more rare as my compensation increased. It becomes more economical to use less-seasoned artists. Artists with management experience, who have demoed that they can lead effectively, are more rare so of course they cost more.

Currently I'm at a small company so I wear many hats, I get to create a lot of hands-on art, but I also work with the coders to design new features, write all our artist-oriented technical docs, and manage other artists.

About the technical writing, I started doing that at Mondo Media when it became clear that we were creating art for a client that didn't have a clue what the restrictions were. So someone had to collate the info, and verify it. No one else stepped up to the plate, and I was sick of working in the dark, so I took it on. I like writing and organizing to some extent, so it fit me well.

If you want to take on Lead-type roles, then demonstrate that you know how to solve problems. I think that's the first step. See a problem in the pipeline, and offer ways to fix it.

Also you need to show you are a people person. I think that's the most difficult part of managing, is being adept at working with people. Knowing psychology and being skilled at rhetoric are very helpful. Everyone has their own agenda, learning what that is and learning their motivation, are a big help in keeping things moving.

If the existing managers are keeping their eyes open, they'll be looking for those who can help fill management shortages. Generally it's more efficient to promote from within than it is to hire anew.

Why do you want it? I had to step up at the time, then I grew to like the increased pay. But I don't really love managing, I'd rather draw/paint/sculpt/animate.

Why do you want it?
I worked at this one place that had a great pipeline they sold me during the interview but not at all in practice. Day 2 of my job I figured out what I thought could work. I realised only a few months later whilst reading my journal that the ideas I had thought up were the ones that eventually worked. if only i had said something [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

When I started here at Threewave I didn't make those mistakes. I was given lots of freedom and I have tested some more of my ideas on art pipeline managment. I like it and I think I'm pretty good at it. Leads get these kind of responsibilities to design these sorts of things, and I want to take it further.

There are tons of other reasons: like mentoring/teaching and other inter-personal dynamics these types of jobs come with that i want to explore much further.

-R

Dont forget the power of telling people what to do and im sure the paycheck ain't half bad neither.

DOit.

Check out a book called "Peopleware"
also this site has lots of good articles:
www.joelonsoftware.com

Game art managment is basically the same topic as software project management. It's also been helpful to me to study game design, I'm currently reading "Game Design Workshop," which is pretty good.

Sounds like you're really focused about doing this; it's always better to have a leader in this industry who knows what it's like to work in the trenches. The only thing I could offer as advice is to watch out for balance between managing and making art. When you first start managing, you'll probably really enjoy it, but as the project moves along, you may find yourself wanting to get away from all the meetings and scheduling to do more art. It's something that my current art director went through on the last project. He never made it public to the team, but he was really struggling with the management thing towards the end. There were about 20 artists to keep track of, and he was growing tired of not being to do any art for the game, especially since he's such a great artist to begin with. So there's a balance you're going to have to find.

Yeah, Joelonsoftware is a great site. I love the article about his interview process.

Sounds good PaK, I'd say you're on the right track.

I agree with FunkaDelicDass, balance is important. On projects I tried to reserve some juicy little bits for myself, like a special effect or the splash screen or something. Anything small and challenging that I knew I could finish in little bits as I found time. Kept me sane.

Slayerman, if you're in it for the power, you're gonna suck. Of course you know already. The best managers IMHO get the job done on time, on budget, and at high quality (the holy triumvirate of project management), all while keeping their team happy. That's a juggle!

Its funny, you(Eric) and Slayerjerman show the opposite sides of my theory.

Slayerman's just goofing around.

But another angle IMO is you do have to put your foot down sometimes and use the power you have. Sometimes a person you're managing has very strong opinions about the direction they should be going in, and try as you might you cannot convince them your way is better. But you generally have a wider/longer view of things than they. So you have to lay the smack down.

Mostly it's a case where they haven't seen the bigger picture, or don't have the info you have. So it's almost always better to share the knowledge, try to bring them around the "soft" way, rather than hitting them with a stick. But sometimes you just have to be an enforcer. Otherwise the schedule/project/team suffers.

Whatever. It's a pain in the ass job sometimes. One advantage is seeing the artists you mentor grow their skills and maturity and worldview. Just like teaching (or raising kids!). The people part of it is the most difficult and the most rewarding, in my experience.

Good luck PaK!

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One advantage is seeing the artists you mentor grow their skills and maturity and worldview. Just like teaching (or raising kids!). The people part of it is the most difficult and the most rewarding, in my experience.


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I just had to comment on this real quick. I know you didn't mean any harm, but this attitude is a pet peave of mine among managers and leaders in general. Do you really think that you have that much to do with your underlings progress? I think if you took that same person and put them on any project where they do the same thing over and over every day, they would probably make just as much progress without you as a person over them. I've witnessed very few times in my own career, and in others, where the lead/manager/producer was the one responsible for the persons growth. I think you degrade the persons hardwork, and you overestimate your own importance by thinking it was you that improved the persons abilities by claiming responsibility for a persons progress.

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Do you really think that you have that much to do with your underlings progress?


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Perhaps you'll change your mind when you usher some artists into the business.

I know at least 4 (1 of them a polycounter) artists who started working with me in the last 2 years who have now secured their first gigs in the business. They tried for a 'while' before they looked for help.

Furthermore, I can tell you that my 11th grade history teacher taught me how to learn, and I can trace my development as an achiever to 'that' teacher in 'that' class spacifically.

My art teachers Abbott Smith and David Christensen taught me how to 'see' as an artist. If it weren't for them I doubt I'd be in the bizz.

So, yeah Ben, I whole-heartely feel you should give mentors the respect they deserve.

Where would some of you guys be without DH and Hyper?

-R

There is a big difference between a mentor and your boss. Very *very* few times are they the same thing. That's what I was pointing out. I've had help in the past, I appreciate my good teachers and my mentors. I was saying that too many times leads and managers who don't really do much mentoring take responsibility for their underlings progress, and it was a pet peave of mine.

"There is a big difference between a mentor and your boss. Very *very* few times are they the same thing."

I couldn't possibly agree more with Poops point here. In fact I dont think I'm in closer agreement with Ben on this point than anything that I've ever seen discussed on this board. I have NEVER had a boss who is also a mentor. How bloody arrogant is it to assume that because someone is higher up the ladder of the corporate structure then they automatically know more than you? You should be able to pick and choose your mentors in life.

Our structure might be a little different than most. We have lead Artists, but they deal with the Art side. And we have Art managers who schedule etc.

Where I am none of the Art managers have an Art background, and are constantly LEARNING FROM US in terms of how games are made. ( On our last game I had to explain to my Art manager what LOD's were for example )
So whenever Im sat down with a manager and they talk about my growth and development Im usually thinking 'you patronising little shit'. But even in regard to leads, I've seen MANY cases where artists on the team are far stronger than their leads.

Your case seems to be somewhat different, since you're contemplating moving into management from an Art background.

However, my advice would be to stress that ( and I think someone mentioned this back in the thread allready ) If you really want to do this, the far better way is to move co.s. It's extremely difficult to turn your once peers into sub-ordinates without a lot of HARD times ahead. Face the notion of having to deal with things like firing people and other crap like that. No fun at all. I'd rather be making models. I'm facing an Art director role at some point soon in my career yes, but thankfully there are many places where that role is entirely on the Art side, and not a people managing role at all. If leading people is what you *really* want to do in life, go for it, but don't forget, as Firestarter once said to me 'be prepared to be the guy that everybody hates'. It's a fact of life.

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a manager and they talk about my growth and development Im usually thinking 'you patronizing little shit'.

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So true.

I see where everyone is comming from now.

I guess I've been lucky. my art director at Microsoft had an incredible eye and was a shining example; a great leader.

Boddyrott, my lead over at piranha was a great boss. Before he was lead i would goto him and ask him questions and seek his advice because it was what i needed. a man of few words, but when he spoke it was (is) always something to listen to.

Right now we have very few artists at our compnay (2) and the other guy is the technical one of the two of us, and plans a significantly different career path than me. I'm positioned well, that's basically what i'm getting at.

Ben, daz, i agree, just because someone is higher up the ladder than you doesn't give them the right to stake claim to your progress and assume they are your mentor. I hope It didn't seem like I suggested that.

I had an art director like that once...*ugh* what a nightmare. His idea of speculatrity is something I like to teach budding artists as the first thing to 'not' do.

I've learned a lot so far. I would reccoemnd everyone read Giuliani's book I linked above. man is it a gold mine [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-R

Haven't seen him on these here boards in forever. Where did he end up?

he's at radical now.

Some ideas from my readings today:

-pairing super-talented people in competitive roles is an idea that I have seen work. Promotes speed and quality.

-there is a fine line between people taking pride in the position and rank they have achived (say, working for a top-tier developer on a AAA title) and becoming complacent with their role. A fine balance must be struck so that you can avoid artsist thinking well, we made it, now what? feeling. I have not been there, but I have talked to friends in this bizz who have. Any stories?

-Surrounding yourself with the right people: This is a crucial point in the book I'm reading. I find that talent isn't enough. I was surrounded by hundreds of talented people once, but I didn't feel trusted or appreciated. Here I work on on the same tier-level projects but the comfort level and trust is higher. I'm surrounded by the right people that promote productivity (and friendship too [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

As a leader I'd love to impliment some of these ideas and see them through.

-R

Wow, touched a bare nerve there. I like the polycount atmosphere, people are very direct and honest.

I'm not taking credit for anyone's growth. Did I actually say that? I don't think so, seems like you're translating your own anger about your crappy managers into an accusation of me.

What I think I said was it's nice to be able to give advice and help to someone who is learning, see them "get" it and really grow. Have you had a chance to teach a class? If you're lucky you'll see certain people's eyes and brains open and move in new directions. That's where the excitement is.

Where they move is entirely in their own hands and is their achievement alone. I never said I was responsible, just that I enjoy mentoring. Correct, there's a difference between managing and mentoring, a boss is not necessarily a mentor, in fact is rarely one. I have mostly managed artists who are more skilled than I, and I prefer that actually, I don't have to manage much at all, the more independant and responsible they are the better.

When artists are way beyond the material you're suggesting, they can just ignore the idea, and that's cool. Unless it needs to be changed to keep the project cohesive or to stay on schedule/budget.

I personally find it's best when someone suggests alternative methods, then I can learn something. If an instructor/director is open enough themselves, they'll be able to accept criticism and learn from the others on their team, regardless of "rank."

You guys have some difficult people to work with. I've been there, and I've been "it" too unfortunately. Learning experience. Egos are almost always a pain in the ass. I think it's good to have one to get invested in your work, but otherwise it really gets in the way. It has always been a battle to lay mine aside, but in the end I never regret it.

If my suggesting ideas and methods, and taking pride in helping others, is ultimately degrading to you, then it sounds like you've got inferiority issues. Or you have someone managing you that has a superiority complex. Maybe just the latter, but sounds like a combination of both.

Tell me where I'm wrong here.

I think you might have taken that too personally Eric. I stated right away I didn't think you meant any harm, and I actually don't think you feel that way. But it reminded me of that issue, so I brought it up for us to talk about.