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Dragon character model WIP [need feedback!]

polycounter lvl 6
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VonDoom polycounter lvl 6
I saw "The Hobbit: The desolation of Smaug" this Christmas and had to make a dragon!

Its my first organic model, so its new territory for me! I have tried hard to keep the topography sound, and I'd appreciate any guidance to get it nice and clean!

He was made in 3DS Max from a plain box, and I used a super simple hand drawn reference inspired by the skyrim dragons. I decided not to reinvent the wheel here so I played it relatively safe and went with a fairly generic design.

I dont know if Max is an ideal workflow for complex organic models like this though, as I've seen people make godly models in z-brush. But I have no idea how well they fare when it comes to rigging, rendering and animation. I suppose you can retopo a z-brush model, but I've heard it is kinda hairy.

Anyway, I created him with animation in mind, primarily for use in VFX shots, so I really need to get the topo around joints and such capable of bending without causing problems and artifacts.

And I also wish to know what is most practical thing to do when it comes to the head, and using morph targets; should i leave it attached to the body or detach it as a separate object to put on the rig? I don't know what the common practice is. Im asking well in advance so I'll be a few steps ahead and hopefully not cock things up!

Im happy to show you some more images if you want to look further into the model.

Cheers !

wipSide.jpg
wipTop.jpg
wipFront.jpg
wipbutt.jpg
WipFOOT.jpg
wipLEG.jpg
wipheadlowpolSIDE.jpg
wipHeadLow.jpg

Turbosmoothed
wipHEAD-TURbosmooth.jpg

Turbosmoothed
wip-turbosmoothed.jpg

Replies

  • katana
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    katana polycounter lvl 14
    It's not a terrible start.

    The center line has a pinch where it was mirrored. You'll need to soften that.

    I would suggest looking at animal anatomy from lizards, bats and dinosaurs. Once you have thoroughly researched how the anatomy might go together, then you'll want to build a new model that follows the flow of muscles...

    Good luck.
  • VonDoom
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    VonDoom polycounter lvl 6
    Its good that its not terrible!

    As for muscles, I'll be adding those in Mudbox and use displacement maps, as im not going to use this for a game, but for a VFX shot or two. Do you know of any specific resources on anatomy or should I just google image search?
  • Torch
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    Torch interpolator
    Its a good start - If you're going to use this as a base in Mudbox, you might want to have more equally sized quads on your geo so its cleaner and more optimised it for sculpting. Right now there's long and short polys all over the place.
  • VonDoom
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    VonDoom polycounter lvl 6
    Thanks, Ive looked at some refs and I see that I also need to separate the legs a bit more where they join the body.

    @Torch: Can you please draw where you'd add more lines on one of the images? It would be really helpful :) Because I am not sure at all where I'd divide the polys on and around the thighs.
  • katana
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    katana polycounter lvl 14
    Basically what he is saying is you want squares that are generally the same size. You want the flow of those squares to follow the general anatomy of the object.

    ZBrush has never responded well to triangles, but it's usually almost impossible to avoid them. And no N-Gons (polygons with more than 4 sides).

    "Kite" and diamond shapes can be worked with.

    These are the points to a good basemesh.

    If the model doesn't have this, then when you import it into ZBrush, the program will subdivide incorrectly from the start and you'll be fighting the sculpt the entire way, which costs time and generally ends with a poor model.

    There is Dynamesh in ZBrush, which takes the model and redraws it as many tiny squares. It doesnt address flow, but it does give you a base to sculpt with.

    Afterward, you'll have to retopologize the model anyway. Which means redrawing a lowpoly mesh over the high poly one.

    You can also forgo the idea of trying to work with an initial basemesh in your modeling program and start with ZSpheres in ZBrush.

    I encourage you to look at wire frames of many models and run through some tutorials for ZBrush widely found around the net.
  • Torch
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    Torch interpolator
    VonDoom wrote: »
    @Torch: Can you please draw where you'd add more lines on one of the images?

    Hi, just wanted to post this image:

    kz8XV3K.jpg

    Orange lines for edge loops, more evenly quadded geo will give you nicer sculpting results than having to 'fight' errors with bad geo. What you have isn't terrible but could be cleaned up to make sculpting a little easier.
  • foredea
    I think that it is good start. :)
    I'm not sure that the reptile needs external ear structure. If you want to put ear, please consider to make different size than horns. To me, the ear looks like the horn because of its size.
  • VonDoom
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    VonDoom polycounter lvl 6
    Wow, thanks for all the feedback guys! @katana, thanks for explaining, I'll be looking into z-brush now and model the body from there. I looked at some beginner tutorials and it looks by far to be the most practical program to make a character in.
    @Torch, thanks for showing me how the polys should be evened out, I get it now! I also looked at your blog and some of your own models for reference!
    @Fordea, thanks, I'll rework the ear!
  • VonDoom
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    VonDoom polycounter lvl 6
    By the way, have any of you got experience with the 3DS Max graphite tools? I have seen some videos where people are retopoing using some of the functions there. What are the advantages/disadvantages it has vs the z-brush tools? Or is it just a matter of personal preference?

    Thanks again.
  • katana
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    katana polycounter lvl 14
    The Max graphite tools are more accurate than the Zbrush retopo tool. I found that when trying to retopo in ZBrush it had trouble grabbing the correct point when the camera is facing away from you ( which is often).

    The graphite tools worked much better. The problem is that Max can't handle the highest tris counts that Zbrush can, so you ave to Decimate in Zbrush to bring it down to a reasonable level.

    However, I finally gave into to purchasing Topogun. It is worth every penny. It handles high counts, is easy to learn and has great results. In that program, the mirror function isn't the best, So often I find myself doing a center seam and then just retopologizing one side. After which, I export it to Max and do the mirror there.

    It's really a matter of preference. Personally I feel it's important to learn to use the tools within the programs before buying third party stuff. You'll not only have a better understanding of what you are after, but it also will reduce the learning curve.

    ZBrush retopo is good when you need a quick surface to sculpt on. Mike Jensen uses that during his sculpting i believe. You aren't doing the whole model, just a pierce of it.
  • VonDoom
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    VonDoom polycounter lvl 6
    graphite.jpg

    Having a go with the graphite tools! They are pretty neat !

    As for the anatomy + flow of muscles, it will take me some time to grasp. This is my first serious attempt at an organic model, so I have to realize its impossible to make a godly model from the get go.

    Approximately how low-poly do you guys normally start off models with anyway? I have looked at the Mudbox t-rex as a ref, and its around ~7200 poly. Im trying to mimic the wireframe, and the thigh has only a row of 4 polys on the sides and just one in the front and back.

    Again, thanks for your help, katana, Torch, foredea

    mudrex1.jpg
  • katana
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    katana polycounter lvl 14
    That looks a whole lot better! Well done. Put another lop or two at each joint. It will help animate those limbs much easier.
  • VonDoom
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    VonDoom polycounter lvl 6
    Thanks, its good to know im on the right path! Updating when I've reached the toes and wings, I'm probably going to run into trouble there.
  • VonDoom
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    VonDoom polycounter lvl 6
    lopol.jpg

    So far the torso starts with a row of 7 polys, adds 1 due to a loop around over the thigh and ends in 4 by the base of the tail. The leg is made of 10 polys, causing the toes to be hexagonal because i dont know how to make them square without making tris :I
  • Haftoof
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    Haftoof polycounter lvl 4
    If you want to be really direct, absolutely no reptile has ear structure... Usually it's just a hole in the side of the skull.
  • VonDoom
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    VonDoom polycounter lvl 6
    I know, artistic freedom ! Might drop it anyway though, because it wont be very visible because of the horns.
  • VonDoom
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    VonDoom polycounter lvl 6
    wip-14-retopo.jpg

    Started on the head, trying to figure out loops and such.
  • shirogatsu
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    shirogatsu polycounter lvl 5
    I think this picture of topology might help you!
    Main muscle groups are highlighted and etc, works very well in animation
    1czzLnb.jpg
    tCOgfpJ.jpg
  • VonDoom
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    VonDoom polycounter lvl 6
    Alright, thanks :) I looked at some wire frames here and there. By the way, is it very common to extrude some groups of polys to give definition to muscle groups?
  • VonDoom
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    VonDoom polycounter lvl 6
    wip-15-retopo.jpg

    A progress shot

    Havent started on the wings yet, but Im gonna go with a solid mesh, so no advanced cloth simulation or anything like that!
  • VonDoom
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    VonDoom polycounter lvl 6
    wip-17-retopo.jpg

    Wings. Gonna reduce the polys on the upper arm.
  • VonDoom
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    VonDoom polycounter lvl 6
    wip-18_1-retopo.jpg

    An update on the head.

    Comments, crits and advice is welcomed !
  • Haftoof
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    Haftoof polycounter lvl 4
    I love the side-crest. that appears more draconic to me, it provides a method to differentiate dragons and feels right. It also does an awesome job of essentially "faking" an ear... People feel it looks right, because dragons need ears even if they don't. The previous ear looked more like a goats.
  • Torch
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    Torch interpolator
    Hey geo is looking a lot better, nice one! In response to your earlier post about Graphite tools, I'm a maya user but my friend recommended a good Retopo tool for Max called Wrapit, if you want to check it out at: http://matt-clark.co.uk/wrapit/spe.php?o=177

    Graphite tools are still pretty powerful from what I hear. Cool updates :)
  • VonDoom
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    VonDoom polycounter lvl 6
    Thanks Haftoof. Removing the ear was a good advice, and it saves some time too. Its why I removed the two fingers on the front wings alongside the thumb and just added them to the rest of the wing. I havent rigged a character before, so that eliminates a few more hours of tweaking.
    Thanks for the tip Torch, those tools look realllly awesome! But Im going to stick withthe graphite tools for now, there are lots of stuff there I havent explored yet :)
  • VonDoom
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    VonDoom polycounter lvl 6
    wip-19-retopo.jpg

    I didn't get to work on the model that much this weekend :( I made the wings larger and adjusted the legs and feet and shrank his butt/hips down a little.

    The wings does not look good, but Im not sure how I make them look more round and simultaneously keep the polycount down, tip much appreciated!


    wip-20_1-retopo.jpg
    I'm planning on adding some simple morph targets on the head, so I'm keeping the head and body as separate meshes. Ive reduced the number of polys on the head where it meets the body, to match the same vertex count on the seam when I start subdividing. Is this the right way of doing it?

    And do you unwrap the model before or after rigging?

    Cheers :)
  • VonDoom
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    VonDoom polycounter lvl 6
    Alright, I found out how to connect the face morph target to the body using just a edit poly modifier in the modifier stack!

    But I have a huge question regarding texturing and rigging.

    First off, the head is decapitated on a base level to make morph targets, BUT how does that go together with the UVW mapping the head and body together? Especially with Mudbox in mind?

    So far I have thought of having a stack in Max that looks like this:

    4: Edit Poly or MeshSmooth
    3: Unwrap UVW
    2: Morpher
    1: Editable Poly

    When I export the file (with the head and body joined with a poly modifier and UVW on top) as an OBJ to Mudbox, texture it there and return to max, will the UVW coordinates be preserved?

    Or do you export and texture the head and the body as separately?
  • VonDoom
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    VonDoom polycounter lvl 6
    -= ultrabump =-

    Hey guys, I'm back again and soon about to finish the model, but I'm having severe trouble with the displacement map where it just inflates the entire model instead of rendering the actual details.

    I read an earlier thread here on the forum where OP had the same problem, but I could not find the solution even though I have done the same things OP did, which frustrates me even more.

    In Mudbox2013 I have set the lvl 2 mesh as the target model and the highest (level 6) as source, and I'm using the subdivision method.

    Mudbox: wip-50.jpg
    wip-51-head.jpg
    mudboxsettings.jpg

    3DS MAX: porblem.jpg

    In Max I have chosen mray as renderer, subdivided the mesh twice, applied the Arch and Design shader to the model and put the map into the displacement slot with a value of 0,5.

    I know that with these settings I should get good results, so I cant comprehend why it fails. Another thing is that it takes ages to render a single frame at 640x360 when it should go pretty quick. But this is probably because of the inflation effect.


    Any sort of help much much appreciated! I just want to get this thing rendered and finally done with! :thumbup:
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