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Enough. Shooting.

polycounter lvl 18
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John Warner polycounter lvl 18
i don't mean to sound like a curmudgeon, but is anyone else sick of violence in games? don't get me wrong -- i enjoy playing games that are fun to play, like god of war 2, but as far as the subject matter goes in terms of a narrative.. chhhrriisstt I'm bored.

I've been really feeling lately that, in a lot of ways that are being over looked, this industry is incredibly immature. does anyone else feel the same way? would anyone else like to see some more interesting or thought provoking content in games? I feel like quite frankly, video games are potentially the best art medium there is because of their interactivity.. but the content is always some X with a tiny ego who's killing Y with a Z.

Is the market ready for something higher? if no, what about the idea of having a standard type of us vs. them violent conflict, but at the climax of the story, something happens that makes using those thinking modes (the violent ones) useless or somehow obsolete, so the player is forced to use higher more complex modes of interaction. a moral or theme for the story could also be suggested here.

In a movie, if there wasn't character development the film would be considered poor. in games, you are the character, but sometimes it seems that the story you're in hasn't been indicative of any sort of development since.. fucking.. DOOM.

thoughts?

btw- is there any games out there that are doing this type of thing that I'm not aware of?

Replies

  • sonic
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    sonic polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    btw- is there any games out there that are doing this type of thing that I'm not aware of?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    http://www.atari.com/fahrenheit\

    Also, violence is one of the few things you just aren't allowed to do in real life, so it's fun to pretend.
  • bounchfx
    I don't think anything is wrong with all the shooting games but I DEFINITELY would like to see more original material out there, more intriguing and interesting stuff with all the same ol crap out there. You don't need violence to have fun, true, but as long as the game is fun to play I don't see anything wrong with violence.
  • animatr
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    animatr polycounter lvl 18
    next-gen games, not so much. I've played a few games though that have had a good narrative and character development.
    one example of a next gen game i thought was pretty rad story-wise and character wise, was the latest splinter cell. not a perfect game, and not a totally engrossing story, but I guess with the point of not being able to shoot, and picking your battles carefully involves higher thought processes.

    i really like the last tomb raider as well. not a lot of character development really, but more gameplay elements that went beyond ,run and gun.

    i agree though. on the one hand, people that want story and character development tend to play RPGs. Prey tried to put character into Tommy, and it pissed people off. I think it was because in a first person game, you are the character, so when you hear a voice that is not you, telling you what you're thinking, it takes away from the immersion.

    on the other hand, I hate the silent hero types, like Link.
    I think one of the best games, with a really good narrative and good character development was Beyond Good or Evil. I think they did a great job.

    i think on whole, the bestselling games lack depth, and have pretty graphics. most people aren't interested in story and character. they just want action. I've started reading again just because of that. When I want a good story, I read, because in terms of games, it's really tough to come by. This also stems because some games are developed around what they want the player to be able to do. what the features are. and then they tack on a story to try and encompass those features. when you try and write a story and fit a game to it, it becomes hard i think to sell your game. condemned 2 is a good example. we wrote a story, now lets try and put some gameplay in there. will it be fun? we hope, but we weren't designing it around game features, but more around the story.
    pros and cons i guess....
  • Tulkamir
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    Tulkamir polycounter lvl 18
    I have no problem with the games currently being made as far as this goes. In fact, I don't want to see the type of game you are talking about stop being produced. They can be very fun. That said, I think there are a lot of other avenues of interaction that could be explored to make interesting games as well. I tried to do it when designing the game my school team did, and the general reception has been good, so I think that the market is ready for it. Though past games such as Psychonauts may lead me to think that's just wishful thinking due to their box office failures.

    I do think we can expect to see more of this type of game though.
  • Vermeulen
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    Vermeulen polycounter lvl 18
    It seems like the market these days is for story driven games with lots of character development, which is what I think your asking for.
    Quoting carmack: story in a game is like story in a porno, it helps, but it's not why you came.
    I really do not think there should be this focus on stories or characters. When everyone is trying to make a realistic game with a movie type plot, you get a lot of the same thing.
  • ebagg
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    ebagg polycounter lvl 17
    You need to broaden your knowledge about what is going on with games these days. Sure, there are a lot of shooters out there, but there are quite a few non-shooting games out there that should fill whatever void you want. Little Big Planet, Spore, The Sims, Elite Beat Agents, the new episodic Sam and Max adventures, Guitar Hero, Brain Age, etc etc the list goes on for quite awhile of games that are about a multitude of different subject matter. I can't wait until the latest Mario Party comes out next week. It's like saying theres no good music these days, no you need to start poking around and find something that suits you better, because there is plenty of quality titles out there and on the way.
  • gauss
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    gauss polycounter lvl 18
    i don't so much have trouble with shooting as far as wanting to shoot in different ways. violence and weapons etc. will always be with us, i simply find myself more and more drawn to games that make the shooting more interesting. smile.gif
    primarily tactical games (make shooting more like real shooting/tactics etc. while still remaining fun) and most especially stealth games.
    Hitman games are probably the games i enjoy most overall because, despite allowing you to play as a murderous psychopath, the most rewarding style of play is the most surgical. sometimes it's so much more fun NOT to shoot, or see how few bullets you need. yeah, at the end of the day it's still about killing someone, but in the amount of strategy, planning, costume-use, etc. it approaches some of the enjoyment i got out of old style adventure games.
    both Hitman and Splinter Cell allow the player to exercise as much or as little benevolence with regard to most NPCs they encounter that i find really enjoyable. that, and Sam Fisher's knock-out animations are always fun to play. smile.gif

    anyway, those are my shoot-y time favorites. as people have pointed out, if you're tired of violence you really need to open your horizons, there are plenty of great games where killing isn't the main object.
  • Rick Stirling
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    Rick Stirling polycounter lvl 18
    ^ What they said - if you are tired of violence, stop buying shooting games. Shooting games make up a minor part of the marketplace.

    I've got 20-25 DS games, and the only one with shooting is Metroid Prime. Oh, you could probably count Advance wars too.
  • aesir
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    aesir polycounter lvl 18
    its called publishers forcing developers to make the types of games that sell. Shooters sell.
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 19
    shooter?

    I keep in me fuckin motar dun I
  • danr
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    danr interpolator
    [ QUOTE ]
    its called publishers forcing developers to make the types of games that sell. Shooters sell.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    i'm looking at the UK all-formats charts now. In the top 10, the nearest i can see to a shooter is Crackdown at #8. Then, the next shooter is Medal of Honour Vanguard at ... #23. Gears of War #24. CoD3 #34. That's it for the top 40.

    The only other games featuring traditional ideas of violence are GTA VCS and God of War2. There's Lego Star Wars 2 of course, which is THE most violent game ever made, but thats just in my head.

    The majority of games riding high in today's chart are the sorts of games that people are suggesting opening up to : Wii Play, Brain Training, Singstar, Buzz, Sims etc etc. They have been for quite some time.

    yep, i really think it's time for a rethink of the old clich
  • Rick Stirling
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    Rick Stirling polycounter lvl 18
    for a second I thought it could have been a PC issue, but even looking at the top 20 PC games, there are only a handful of shooters.

    http://uk.gamestracker.com/pc/chart.htm
  • aesir
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    aesir polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    its called publishers forcing developers to make the types of games that sell. Shooters sell.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    i'm looking at the UK all-formats charts now. In the top 10, the nearest i can see to a shooter is Crackdown at #8. Then, the next shooter is Medal of Honour Vanguard at ... #23. Gears of War #24. CoD3 #34. That's it for the top 40.

    The only other games featuring traditional ideas of violence are GTA VCS and God of War2. There's Lego Star Wars 2 of course, which is THE most violent game ever made, but thats just in my head.

    The majority of games riding high in today's chart are the sorts of games that people are suggesting opening up to : Wii Play, Brain Training, Singstar, Buzz, Sims etc etc. They have been for quite some time.

    yep, i really think it's time for a rethink of the old clich
  • Rick Stirling
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    Rick Stirling polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    Shooters are always reasonably popular.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Obviously, judging by what people are buying, the key word in that sentence should be "were"
  • JKMakowka
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    JKMakowka polycounter lvl 18
    I think you missunderstood what JohnW wanted to say.

    It is not about the violence of the shooters, but the gameplay principle itself, which applys to Lego Star Wars too I guess. And I am pretty bored by that as well.

    To sum it up, right now there are more or less 4 and a half gameplay types available:
    1. Shooting games, doesn't matter if it is a FPS, or a Space/Filght Sim etc... gameplay principle "you shoot stuff, the end" Sure those tactical one are more interesting, but they also boil down to the samething.

    2. RTS: You click and your units shoot, can be fun in multiplayer, but singleplayer is either extremly scripted up to a point where it is almost an interactive movie (which bad graphics wink.gif ) or the computer AI too simple to really challenge you in a smart way, thus its really mindless to play against it (can be hard via AI cheating but that sucks too).

    3. "Game" games: Basicly regular tabletop /casual sports games transferred to the digital medium. Usually require quick reactions, and have a very simple and repetitive gameplay principle. Great as party games, but not really a thing you would play for long alone.

    4: Story driven Adventures/RPGs: Basicly an interactive movie
    4 1/2: Leveling based RPGs: Boring smile.gif
    Edit: Oh and slap in a chat system and you got a MMORPG confused.gif

    All the games you mentioned fall into those categories. Sometimes a few games are a mix in between, mostly #1&#4 or #3&#4 and those tend to be the most enjoyable, but it really is quite shallow.


    There a a few excerptions, mostly "non games" like the Sims, or relative obscure "construction" strategy games like Civ, maybe Spore and so on, but that is really all there is.

    Do I have perfect other idea? Hell no, but at leasts it is worth thinking about.
  • Rick Stirling
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    Rick Stirling polycounter lvl 18
    Flight sims?
    Phoenix Wright?
    Where does Meteos and Every Extend Extra and Lumines fit?

    Is Project Gotham Racing a 'casual sports game'?

    Do all platformers = 'Game' games?
  • danr
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    danr interpolator
    rick - flight sims are "shooting" games. Look, it says so up there. It doesn't matter about the incredibly detailed simulation or the arena you're placed in - it's basically a load of stuff bolted around a red trigger button

    did you not know that?
  • HonkyPunch
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    HonkyPunch polycounter lvl 18
    Shooting games are fun
    But I too crave something more
    Assasin's Creed
    Bioshock (although a shooter)
    Splinter Cell Conviction
    They all look interesting to me. And if you haven't played shadow of the colossus, you're cheating yourself
  • Prs-Phil
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    Prs-Phil polycounter lvl 18
    I personally agree on the violence issue, would not say remarkably higher than in movies or music, maybe the time spent actively living it out, yes, other than that I would not say the medium itself is so immature. As a fairly new and loaded (well, not well distributed) industry we have just caught on what everybody else does anyway.
    Make money of those with little demands.

    Could still discuss the need for violence as a compensator (achievements, self esteem, human nature blablabla) or indicator for our current state but if you ask me it's more the challenge of prevailing under something we would broadly see as stressful, tense situations (wich violence creates). The joy of stimulation.

    Phoenix Wright is a good example but you could still throw it into Story driven Adventures/RPGs

    So what do you want to expect from the player other than to do what he is capable of at maximum. Interacting.

    Even with a game like the Sims where you can take away the sense of purpose (which imho is a significant there or not because we have a tendency to drop stuff that doesn't serve a conscious purpose), it's still a person interacting through the device with the game world and that is bound to the limitations of the platform and the design.

    The result of course are these categories that JKM listed, that demand skills that we use in our everyday live and interaction in our environment.

    So once again I think it's more what you can actually throw at the people, what reaches them or what they reach for that defines what games are out there and I think it's going into an interesting direction because there still is enough (actually more than ever) room for relate able ideas that keep things moving within the developer community and with the consumers.

    It's all about the love isn't it laugh.gif and not about having an honorable pension and enough money to drive your kids in a Hummer to private school. Yay, be proud! you've done it

    *bleh

    PS: Jimmies your ava just gets more and more freaky with every turn laugh.gif
  • Joao Sapiro
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    Joao Sapiro sublime tool
    lumines and meteos FTW
  • conte
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    conte polycounter lvl 18
    stupid shooters, yes, tired too.
  • Ghostscape
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    Ghostscape polycounter lvl 13
    Dimitri Martin has a great but short bit about "Super Busy Hospital 2", where you have to fix up all the guys who were shot in other video games.
    "Please be quiet, I'm performing surgery on someone who was shot in the head 47 times.
  • Sage
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    Sage polycounter lvl 19
    I think the main problem in a lot of action games is that they are just kill this or that, then move on and not enough problem solving, or you get this puzzle intensive nightmare that's just boring. I think the problem solving should try to mimic how people deal with problems and have enough options to deal with them. I think that games will hopefully add more ways to kill things or options to pass a level. Also the older you get the more you crave for substance, and challenge. If you are great at playing FPS games you'll probably get bored with them really quickly if all you do is shoot enemies over and over and can't do anything else. I find single view games boring. If I'm stuck in a first person view or third person view all the time I get fed up with it. In fact I hate looking at a character's ass all day, just bugs the hell out of me and just seeing arms bug me as well. As far as story go, that from time to time bug me as well, having to level up to pass a level is just as boring.

    Alex
  • JKMakowka
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    JKMakowka polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    Flight sims?

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Be honest, there is more or less only MS flight simulator which doesn't fit into the shooter category, everything else released recently seem to be heavy combat based "flight simulators".

    [ QUOTE ]

    Phoenix Wright?
    Where does Meteos and Every Extend Extra and Lumines fit?

    [/ QUOTE ]
    That Phoenix game looks pretty cool, but you have to admit that those are all pretty obscure titles for the DS (probably almost only available in Japan), and those puzzle games could even fit into the "games"game category.

    [ QUOTE ]

    Is Project Gotham Racing a 'casual sports game'?

    Do all platformers = 'Game' games?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    2x Yes.
  • Rick Stirling
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    Rick Stirling polycounter lvl 18
    "Games" Games.

    A useful category. So really you have 3 categories - RPG, FPS, RTS and then everything else.
  • swampbug
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    swampbug polycounter lvl 18
    Look out for HEavy Rain! from quantic dream.

    Shooting is fun when its done right. when a game just abuses guns and ammo, the idea of killing things isnt as impactful. It ends up being repetitive.

    Take any open world Thug simulator for example, You are given endless amounts of ammo and guns, and you're always shooting and blowing up cars. You do it so much, so often it looses its thrill. That dulls the expirence in those games for me. Now give me a survival shooter, where guns and ammo are precious, Guns become more real and respected. I like that.

    Now a game like BF2. I play that for shear,, naa nanaanaa naa. I'm better that you ARE!! pttttt, reasons. :P

    concerning single player games though:
    I like the type of shooters that actually make you respect your weapon. too many games dont do this, and the only purpose of the game is to shoot, the story and character comes in last place. frown.gif

    My ideal game would be a full world, deep intriguing story, mystery, emotions, then later would come the guns that are hard to obtain, and come with the utmost of consequences if used, that would work just fine.
  • Joseph Silverman
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    Joseph Silverman polycounter lvl 17
    [ QUOTE ]

    That Phoenix game looks pretty cool, but you have to admit that those are all pretty obscure titles for the DS (probably almost only available in Japan)


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Most get dubbed and released in other countries, and the DS has no region limits, so it hardly matters with some games.
  • Asmuel
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    Asmuel polycounter lvl 17
    I agree with you in many ways John. You should check out the latest Fable 2 video diary on GT...

    http://www.gametrailers.com/gamepage.php?id=2669

    Very mushy lol, but I think they have some great ideas and its good to see them comming together in a high end title. Shooters getting old for me also, thats why I got into RPG's though I havent played one through in years.
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 18
    Here are two organizations and listing to look at for what you describe John. The area I think has the most potential as well.

    G4C (Games For Change)

    Social Impact Games
  • spacemonkey
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    spacemonkey polycounter lvl 18
    I like to kill people in games.. better than real life eh?
  • richkid
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    richkid polycounter lvl 13
    i dont know... to me the violence, or lack of violence isnt the issue. its the message that the game has, games are just lacking sub messages anymore. for a while there, games were all about some sort of commentary on the way we live our lives, now they are just fluff. jack and daxter is based around a world that tore itself apart with technology, sonic was a fight between nature and industrialization. look at all the oddworld games, i personally cant wait til lorne lanning gives out some info one citizen siege, its a new take on how movies and games go together. they are made at the same time, so one isnt based off of the other, they are part of the same experience.

    anyway, stop all the fluff, i think its cause all the designers now were raised on mario...and mario is the biggest piece of fluff that there is
  • killingpeople
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    killingpeople polycounter lvl 18
    i am not sick of violence in games. i tire of violence in the real world.
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
  • LordScottish
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    LordScottish polycounter lvl 18
    I agree with you richkid.
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