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Frostmourne_WIP

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interpolator
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jmiles interpolator
Hey all.. been posting a lot in WAYWO, so I figured I'd start my own thread. I started posting progress pics a few days ago.. I intend to finish this w/ maps and a fancy lay out sheet. Crits and suggestions always appreciated.. peace

frostmourne06.jpg

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  • DrunkShaman
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    DrunkShaman polycounter lvl 14
    What happened to your previous project. =\

    and hwhwhwhwhwhwhwwww.....God! Sick work
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 18
    Very cool! The blade looks a little "noisy" to me though, I would have expected it to be smooth instead of bumpy?

    Also, couldn't you have picked a better MatCap? That one is so boring and really doesn't define volume/shape very well :)
  • Will Faucher
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    Will Faucher polycounter lvl 12
    Oh my god the detail! It's just so awesome! Fantastic work! Amazing attention to the detailing. The only thing I have to say is... it may just be a little too noisy on the blade. I just don't get the feeling that it is made of metal. But damn, that's just a tiny nitpick!

    AMAZING work! Well done! are you going to make a low poly for this?
  • jmiles
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    jmiles interpolator
    @ Nitewalkr-- hey man :) I got a little distracted from Pitts over the weekend. and I haven't done any Zbrush work in ages, so I figured I'd do more WoW art for the fun of it. I will pick Pitts back up again soon!

    What do you suggest MoP?.. I was playing around w/ a few of the mat caps and I couldn't find one i liked so much.. I was using the Roma cap for a bit.. but still didn't feel like it had enough contrast. As for the bumpy metal on the blade, I've actually been playing a lot of DarkSiders lately, and I noticed that they have a lot of good noise in many of their textures that bring out something more in their metals than I notice when i'm playing other games.. I donno.. I guess I just feel as though it give s the metal more substance?.. I could tone it down a bit, I think I have the noise saved in a layer or something.. and hammer it out w/ some hPolish.. oh and also.. the noise is kind of a micro detail.. from far away, it's not so bad, in my opinion.. but still.. might be better toned down..

    @ Prophecies-- thanks for the kind words man. Yes, I"m gonna retopo it and make some maps for it.. the whole 9 :)
  • DrunkShaman
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    DrunkShaman polycounter lvl 14
    Well you sure havent lost the skills of Zbrush :p

    Amazing work man, really. I mean soo much detailing right there.
  • divi
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    divi polycounter lvl 12
    looks awesome. great detail all over!
    i'd try antiqueBronze2 by magdalena dadela or the hulk skin by grant warwick. both in the matcap library on the zbrush site.
  • jmiles
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    jmiles interpolator
    cool.. thanks divi
  • woogity
    lookin cool man, i hear "this thing hungers"...:thumbup:
  • Megabiv
  • vcortis
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    vcortis polycounter lvl 9
    Yeah I think you need to turn down the noise on the metal. Right now I'm reading it as aged leather with a lot of tiny cracks and creases. Metal is MUCH more smooth, and there would only be very shallow scratches on the flat part of the blade. The most noticeable ware and tear would be along the edge.

    That's not to say there wouldn't be discoloration and age shown on the flat of the blade, but there is a difference between the two. Overall though it's nice good, details zbrush work. I'll be following.
  • SHEPEIRO
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    SHEPEIRO polycounter lvl 17
    wouldnt want to weild that doesnt look that comfy

    NICE
  • DrunkShaman
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    DrunkShaman polycounter lvl 14
    http://www.duarte.cl/blog/monosblog/Frostmourne.jpg

    detail is just about right but softning the image wont hurt
  • Krazy8
    I really like the detail you put into it. I will definately be following this.
  • Autocon
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    Autocon polycounter lvl 15
    Defantly one of my most favorit swords ever. Some really nice detailing but like said before it looks a little noisy, especially on the blade.
  • jmiles
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    jmiles interpolator
    Hey guys.. I'm having issues decimating my model so I can re-mesh it in Max. Right now my model consists of about 36 million polys, of which I might be able to forgo a few of the subdivisions. Might it be a better idea to combine some of the sub-tools into one sub-tool and decimate them? or decimate each sub-tool individually?.. I have 17 sub-tools currently w/o doing the "merge visible" I was talking about.. if any of you have ideas and tips on this, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks
  • turpedo
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    turpedo polycounter lvl 12
    There shouldn't be any issues decimating the subtools separately. In the end, it is just framework to base your lowpoly off of.
  • jmiles
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    jmiles interpolator
    Got my decimations done and on to the last bit of retopoing before I start making my maps.. for now.. just playing w/ renders and mat caps in zbrush for shits n giggles..

    frostmourne07.jpg

    Uploaded with ImageShack.us
  • Thor Sowards
    jmiles wrote: »
    Hey guys.. I'm having issues decimating my model so I can re-mesh it in Max. Right now my model consists of about 36 million polys, of which I might be able to forgo a few of the subdivisions. Might it be a better idea to combine some of the sub-tools into one sub-tool and decimate them? or decimate each sub-tool individually?.. I have 17 sub-tools currently w/o doing the "merge visible" I was talking about.. if any of you have ideas and tips on this, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks


    Why don't you retopo in zbrush? I haven't messed with retopo very much but as far as I know (ignorance is bliss) there's nothing wrong with it
  • jmiles
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    jmiles interpolator
    oh absolutely not.. the retopo works fine, and I was doing it for a bit, but I decided to decimate pieces of my model so I could retopo them in Max, then export the high frequency and low frequency models out to XNormal to bake out my maps. I retopo'd the blade and the blade cap (as i'm calling it) right above it directly in Zbrush.. the other pieces were a lot easier to retopo in Max.. then all that's left is the unwraps and bakes..
  • jmiles
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    jmiles interpolator
    frostmourne08.jpg

    Need some advise..I think my biggest questions are.. "is this an efficient model for a "next gen game?" and "should I reduce teh polys".. I have yet to bake my maps out and just wanted to know.. should I go quality over quantity?.. meaning.. should I leave the poly count this high for the quality, or (for more proficiency purposes) reduce the polys after I bake out my maps and think quantity of polys over quality of mesh?... or.. a balance of both? I think i already know the answer to these questions.. I just need to hear it from somebody else.. thanks..
  • woogity
    jmiles you could save a bunch by having the detail at the end of the rune be separate geo from the blade itself, just a thought, honestly i dont know about the count for sure either but 10k seems a bit high for a weapon.
  • jmiles
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    jmiles interpolator
    cool thanks woog.. didn't think before i posted, but I have a lot of geo that is hidden by other pieces too.. i could kill those polys too.. maybe make it a goal to get this thing down to 5k perhaps?
  • vcortis
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    vcortis polycounter lvl 9
    Hey jmiles, I think one of the main things that is causing such a high poly count is your handle. What is that 12 sided? I think one thing you have to keep in mind is the following...

    For a third person weapon what will be the main focus of the weapon and what will people be looking at the most? For a first person weapon the same...

    How important is the hilt? How detailed should it be when there are two hands covering the majority of it?

    I think you can cut A TON of polys from the hilt with little affect on the overall piece.

    Also the two skulls on each side of the sword look really heavy around the eye socket area... I don't think all of that is needed to capture the silhouette of those.

    You should be able to at least drop this thing down to around 6k tris easily without really affecting the overall piece.
  • jmiles
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    jmiles interpolator
    Cool Vcortis.. thanks for the info.. the handle was definitely one of my heavy poly spots..and you guessed it right.. it is 12 sided.. That will be my plan off attack after work tonight.. I think my main fear was that something too low poly wouldn't capture all the high res detail quite as well.. thanks again for the crit and suggestion man.
  • mospheric
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    mospheric polycounter lvl 11
    Also for functionality in a game, the player's hand would be wrapped around the handle, thus making most of that awesome detail hidden.
  • jmiles
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    jmiles interpolator
    frostmourne10.jpg

    Would have liked to present this in 8monkey labs material editor.. but for some reason it's buggin out on me and the UI won't show.. anybody else have these issues?... looked over the site to see if they had an updated version or patch.. but still getting issues.. anyways, a little update.. baked out some mapz tonight and I think they turned out pretty sweet.. pulled the tri count down to 6220 and might even be able to get away w/ getting rid of the skulls geo at the base of the handle-- the AO and normal baked out really well for those.. anyways.. c&c and suggestions appreciated as always.. peace

    edit: another thing.. i'm currently presenting the normal w/ the Max DX shader.. not my favorite thing in the world.. but i guess this doesn't look so bad either..
  • divi
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    divi polycounter lvl 12
    that bake has quite a few smoothing errors, especially on the blade.
    you could split the smoothing groups and UVs at hard edges to try and deal with those. i'd go with something like that
    smoothinggroups.jpg
    and see where it leads me. there are probably still a few places missing that could use some SG/UV splits, but oh well.

    the handle and straps turned out great though.
  • jmiles
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    jmiles interpolator
    @ Divi: hmm.. I thought for baking normals you HAD to keep your objects in one smoothing group, otherwise, they average funny.. I have all my objects set to SG 1, otherwise I would set the same pattern you're showing right now..
  • Will Faucher
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    Will Faucher polycounter lvl 12
    Are you baking your normals in max? If so, try xNormal, I've had nothing but good results with it. Also, what Divi is saying, is, try splitting your UV seams around those hard edges. Maybe you'll get nicer, sharper results.

    Oh, and before I forget, nothing is preventing you from properly setting your smoothing groups after the bake either. Right now I'm not getting the sharp blade edge feel because of the uniform smoothing group.
  • jmiles
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    jmiles interpolator
    I did bake them in XNormal.. That's why I put my objects into one smooth group.. otherwise you always get weird creases that don't look like they were apart of your sculpt
  • Will Faucher
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    Will Faucher polycounter lvl 12
    ahhh I gotcha. What is the normal map resolution? Looks like a 2048. It just seems to lack those tiny details you had.
  • Lightweight
  • jmiles
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    jmiles interpolator
    @ Prophecies: ya know what.. i was thinking of re-baking out the blade part.. when i decimated the blade, i wanted to get it down to about 150k tris.. but i think i can push the count a bit more either 300 or 500k.. i'll give that a whirl tonight.. and yup.. split the whole thing into two parts.. one map was 2048 x 512, and the other was 1024 x 1024.. i'll get my layouts up here in a little while..
  • Will Faucher
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    Will Faucher polycounter lvl 12
    Ahh that may be why. I'm not a huge zbrush user, but is there a visual difference between 300k and 500k with decimation master? The way I look at it is, the more detail in your high poly, the better.
  • vj_box
    The high res sculpt looks really good!
  • Cap Hotkill
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    Cap Hotkill polycounter lvl 13
    I would not use decimation for that, how many polygons has the blade? I usualy bake at 1 million or 2 million polys.
    Plus it looks that your blade has a 180º Smoothing, Split the blade were the Sharp edge is, to split the blade in 2 halfs. and then add smoothings of 45 or 60º it will look more white, instead of looking all shadowy in the sides.
  • vcortis
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    vcortis polycounter lvl 9
    Handle turned out great! Told you, you could cut out a good 3k tris and still make it look awesome. Blade needs some work as others have said, but I can tell this is going to be a kickass piece! Should throw it into udk and add some frost particle effects too!
  • divi
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    divi polycounter lvl 12
    jmiles wrote: »
    @ Divi: hmm.. I thought for baking normals you HAD to keep your objects in one smoothing group, otherwise, they average funny.. I have all my objects set to SG 1, otherwise I would set the same pattern you're showing right now..

    split smoothing groups and UVs. only splitting the UVs or only splitting the SGs will most likely introduce artifacts.

    http://www.svartberg.com/tutorials/article_normalmaps/normalmaps.html
    the part about unsmoothed tangents.

    http://wiki.polycount.net/Normal_Map
    if you need more in depth information about it under 'Hard Edge Discussions and Tutorials'

    if the lowpoly looks good on it's own smoothing wise the normal map will have an easier time compensating. maya is a lot better at baking with a single smoothing group for whatever reason, but this looks very promising for max.

    looking forward to updates on this project :)
  • jmiles
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    jmiles interpolator
    a bit of an update.. a little ways to go yet.. wanna pop it into Unreal pretty soon.. make some glow maps and particles.. what do ya think about the blue color I added to the blade and other various parts of the sword?.. My intent was to make the metal look very cold.. I was playing w/ warm colors too.. to make the sword glow as if it were really hot.. but that would probably contrast the nature of the sword itself.. it looked ok.. but I think the blue looks better.. let me know what ya think... if it needs to be toned down or boosted or w/e.. crits n feedback always appreciated..

    frostmourne13.jpg
  • chrisradsby
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    chrisradsby polycounter lvl 14
    Really nice work! I really like the blue color on the blade, however I feel like the color of the handle makes some of the detail disappear, might just be the screenshot though or my monitor.

    Great progress!
  • linkov
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    linkov polycounter lvl 10
    its probably too late for any major changes, but anyway..

    frostmournecomp.jpg

    two images on the left is from Blizzard. while swords there is differ from each other, their overall proportions are the same. and do not match with your model proportions.
  • jmiles
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    jmiles interpolator
    @ Chrisradsby-- thanks man! yeah I see what you're saying about the colors on the handle.. I could perhaps lighten them up a little bit. I haven't made a spec map for this yet, and it's not lit very well because the DX shader will only use one light. If I get it into Unreal, it should look a little better.

    @ Linkov-- Thanks for catching the proportions. I've been staring at this thing for far too long. I don't think it's too late to make those changes.. right now I can see that the hilt shafts w/ the skulls could be made a little smaller, and the blade itself made a little wider and shorter.. I don't think it would kill the resolution too bad if I changed some features here and there. Thanks for the info mate..

    although I like the proportions of the way I made it, I am going for a little bit more accuracy here-- so changing the proportions would be a good thing.. and although some of the other features, such as the skulls, are shaped a little different, as long as the form itself is recognizable to the art, I'll be happy..
  • jmiles
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    jmiles interpolator
    frostmourne14proportion.jpg

    proportion change.. still looks good.. definitely more accurate over all.. thanks Linkov
  • linkov
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    linkov polycounter lvl 10
    jmiles wrote: »
    proportion change.. still looks good.. definitely more accurate over all.. thanks Linkov

    ... mm well, that was quick. I'm glad my post was somehow useful to you, however when I was talking about being too late for major changes, I didn't meant this. But first things first:

    frostmournecomp2.jpg

    You did good. But proportion wise there is still some improvements can be made. Notice the green lines, these were my 'common grounds' to compare your blade with the refs. Its now a little bit off, although the overall proportions are much better now.

    But to be completely honest, proportions are not your biggest problem here. It was mentioned already in this thread - there is a shading issues, what makes your work look worse than it can be. If you really want it to shine in all its glory, I would recommend to redo it completely, starting from fixing your base mesh:

    - proportions (enough said about them already), find images of the replica, these will provide a lot of details you need. there is also many 'official' Blizzard illustrations what can be found on Sons of the Storm website, check them out.

    - check some parts. for example - horns are coming out from the front of the skull. yours are coming out from the sides. while it may seem like a minor issue, its the details what matter really.

    Sculpting. Your sculpt is impressive, but there is really a lot of unnecessary stuff. Don't fixate on making it all scratchy and wear. You will loose these details because of the texture resolution, lighting and whatever else funky stuff modern engines can provide. Instead, make a few larger dents/scratches. If done properly, it will look much more convincing than several millions of poligons imitating nothing but noise.

    Also, check the runes. Yours are pretty close to the original ones, but still look somewhat inaccurate. If you zbrushing them, make some masks from replica images, and just stamp them or whatever. I believe there is a function in zbrush to do such things.

    Finally, bake your normal maps properly. There is a solution in this thread, I can only repeat it - separate your UVs along the edges what are supposed to be hard ones, ajust your smoothing groups as well.

    p.s. I understand that redoing this thing completely can be boring, but believe me the end result is worth it, especially when making legendary things =)
  • jmiles
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    jmiles interpolator
    hey guys..posted this up in technical talk, in the marmoset thread.. donno if people were still looking at that thread these days..

    having issues w/ the ed.. for some reason, the editor seems to open correctly, but when I click on the material editor, i get a black screen. I tried uninstalling and reinstalling OpenAL, downloading new versions of the toolbag itself, installing new graphics card drivers, and setting up thetoolUser.cfg script to see if that would fix my issues.. still getting the black screen.. I even tried all the hot keys. the editor worked fine for me before while i was working on my model of Sonic.. but now it doesn't.. just kinda strange. any input you guys might have would be really helpful. thanks..

    marmosetissues2.jpg

    marmosetissues.jpg
  • Cap Hotkill
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    Cap Hotkill polycounter lvl 13
    Split the blade like this.

    splith.png
  • DrunkShaman
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    DrunkShaman polycounter lvl 14
    jmiles wrote: »
    hey guys..posted this up in technical talk, in the marmoset thread.. donno if people were still looking at that thread these days..

    having issues w/ the ed.. for some reason, the editor seems to open correctly, but when I click on the material editor, i get a black screen. I tried uninstalling and reinstalling OpenAL, downloading new versions of the toolbag itself, installing new graphics card drivers, and setting up thetoolUser.cfg script to see if that would fix my issues.. still getting the black screen.. I even tried all the hot keys. the editor worked fine for me before while i was working on my model of Sonic.. but now it doesn't.. just kinda strange. any input you guys might have would be really helpful. thanks..

    marmosetissues2.jpg

    marmosetissues.jpg

    Can you display the errors in the red Jmiles? Its showing something to do with "not containing the skinning data"

    And I hope people helped you out in the tech talk....
  • JonathanF
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    JonathanF polycounter lvl 13
    tried restarting your computer after all that? some times a good restart will fix an issue. :)
  • felipefrango
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    felipefrango polycounter lvl 9
    Split the blade like this.

    splith.png

    Exactly what I was gonna say, I think the main issue is that the very outer polys seem to be on the same SG on both sides, making the blade lose it's sharpness.
  • jmiles
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    jmiles interpolator
    frostmournequasilayouts.jpg

    hey all.. haven't posted much on this in a while.. finally got around to rebaking my normals.. I think the smoothing issues have taken care of themselves now.. let me know what a think of the layout.. still WIP.. but i'm getting closer to wrapping it up i think..
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