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[ZBrush] Sea Creature & Rider

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polycounter lvl 10
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Jessica Dinh polycounter lvl 10
Hey guys, over the next few weeks I will be attempting to learn ZBrush. I tried and kinda dropped it a couple months ago, but it's time to try again haha. My plan is to create a monster and then a rider that goes with it.

I'm going with an aquatic predator theme. My creature is pretty big; its rider will be about the length of its forearm. It's blind, and uses a sensory system to detect motion in the water in order to navigate. I used a combination of references for its anatomy: his front legs are kindof like shrimp claws, they tuck in when he swims; his back legs are based off frog legs and will propel him; he has an eely face :):)

Also of importance to me: My personal challenge is to make this creature look somewhat menacing, as opposed to my usual tendency of making cute, pretty things. No cute monster!! If you see anything that is making him 'cute' please notify >_> I'd like to see if I can make something more serious this time hahaha.

Here is some of the ref:

y6zM5.jpg

So far I have the block-out, in Dynamesh at 72 res. I am looking for critique on design, aesthetics, and function - are the shapes interesting? What do you think of the silhouette? Is there balance, variety? I'd love some fresh eyes for this, all critique and comments appreciated. (p.s. he will have teeth, I totally forgot about those...)

yEVN1.jpg

fUP6U.jpg

OQfXp.jpg

Thanks!
Jessica

Replies

  • Caldria
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    Caldria polycounter lvl 8
    Beautiful work. I love the fliudity the design brings across. It really looks like it belongs in the water. Just not sure what those blade like things are on the backs of its front "feet"
    Will those be able to protract? Or what is their purpose.
    And if the back legs are meant to propel it along, I think they'd need to look more powerful/thicker. Mostly on the bottom region, near the webbed feet.

    Anyway, just some thoughts - awesome work.

    This will be enjoyable to watch :D
  • Jessica Dinh
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    Jessica Dinh polycounter lvl 10
    Thank you Caldria - the blade things are just fins and the ones on his forelegs protract when he tucks his legs in so they don't poke him haha. I put them there mostly for design to help him come across as a water creature (I was thinking eel/lionfish), but I should definitely look into their funtion. In real life I don't even know what they are there for haha, like if they help the swimming along or whatever - time to researchh.

    Thanks for the critique on the back legs too, that makes sense, I will revisit them.
  • allaze-eroler
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    allaze-eroler polycounter lvl 11
    i really like the idea of this creature ! but you should read this pic because there is some stuff that you need to know :)

    http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/071/4/c/3d_geometry_tutorial_by_bobbie_the_jean-d3bh66u.jpg

    if you already kno all of these few things, you can blame me ^^,

    otherwise, very good start :)
  • Jessica Dinh
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    Jessica Dinh polycounter lvl 10
    allaze-eroler - Although I will be going all the way through with retop and a game-res model, I will not be rigging or weighting for this project, so I decided to pose my creature in its final position. Thank you though! :]
  • Tenchi
    No cuteness detected >:P I would look at making the tail more slim/thinner like in the reference pic with the tail, looks too rounded at the moment. That would give more of an impression that it could be used to propel it like a flipper ...but with extra flexibility? ^_^
  • allaze-eroler
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    allaze-eroler polycounter lvl 11
    allaze-eroler - Although I will be going all the way through with retop and a game-res model, I will not be rigging or weighting for this project, so I decided to pose my creature in its final position. Thank you though! :]

    alright then ! but it ill be hard to do the retopology in this pose because i did experienced it once unless you have topogun or 3dcoat that will help you greatly, aside that, it's your choice :)
  • JR
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    JR polycounter lvl 15
    It's cool indeed. But don't you think it's worth to spend some time making some sketches on paper for this creature, before start sculpting? How he moves, his atitudes, his weight, how is his relationship with its rider... You know, give some background, history and life to him. We tend to think in zbrush as a design-o-matic... but when we develop creatures, the most important thing is if they look live. What just happen if the creature has history and personality.

    Hope this make sense for you.

    PS: Have you put pandaria fan art in a hold? I was so anxious too see the progress =(
  • MeintevdS
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    MeintevdS keyframe
    And if the back legs are meant to propel it along, I think they'd need to look more powerful/thicker. Mostly on the bottom region, near the webbed feet.
    Hmm if I look at the frog leg though, they are alright swimmers and they have skinny lower legs. So personally I think it could work.
    so I decided to pose my creature in its final position
    I'm guessing you'll be changing the pose after you've got the base symmetry done though? It's not as dynamic as it could be ;)

    As for the design I like most of it, just the arms feel a bit random to me. Especially the claw part, not sure what to make of it.
    I also think that maybe adding more fins to the tail and making it flatter and wider (bit like the deep sea eel reference you posted). This way I could imagine him using his legs for a burst of speed during an attack (like frogs swim in tiny bursts of speed) and he could use his tail to swim longer distances.
    Somehow I think ending the tail in the shape of a coelacanth tail would be awesome:
    image_1_lg.jpg

    Awesome start though!
  • Caldria
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    Caldria polycounter lvl 8
    MeintevdS wrote: »
    Hmm if I look at the frog leg though, they are alright swimmers and they have skinny lower legs. So personally I think it could work.

    Fair enough, makes sense. It would probably also help keep that sleek agile feel with the current legs.
  • Jessica Dinh
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    Jessica Dinh polycounter lvl 10
    Caldria - Sorry, I think I misunderstood your first post - I suddenly realize that the 'blade things' don't really make any sense and are a result of me misinterpreting my shrimp reference. Haha thanks for pointing that out, I will definitely need to redesign the front legs to work xD

    Tenchi - I really like your idea for the tail, I think it would make more sense and look a lot better too - right now it is just round and boring haha.

    allaze-eroler - Hmmm, I might repose him neutrally if it will make the retopo easier, because I don't want complications there. But then he would be stuck in that icky neutral pose for the final, since I won't be getting around to the rigging. >_< hmmm, I'll give it some more thought. I could probably loosen him up to be somewhere between the two poses.

    jramauri - You're right, I could develop his background a little more - perhaps it will give me insight into how I could spice up his design. I haven't thought of the rider yet, or what the creature's enviro is really like. I will take some pencil to paper for it hehe. As for the Pandaren stuff, it is still in the works, but school started recently so now I have a couple other projects on my plate (this being one of them). Progress will be posted on that soon, thanks for asking :):)

    MeintevdS - Thanks for that ref pic, I can totally see that working too :D
  • Jessica Dinh
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    Jessica Dinh polycounter lvl 10
    Hello guys, here is an update on my sea creature. I've given him teeth, worked on the functionality of the tail, fixed the arms and feet, and built up the muscles. Before I move on to details (I have to start my retop this week!), I'd like to get some feedback :) Critique and comments welcome!

    I've also been messing around with presentation/render settings in ZBrush, let me know if this is reading well:

    pzgnY.jpg

    Here are my old render settings (basically just default settings with some Wax Preview on xD):

    MNOGN.jpg

    Thanks!
    Jessica
  • JR
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    JR polycounter lvl 15
    Looks good. New tail is a good tool for swiming. But I didn't get the new hands. Why they are so narrow? The old ones were better for swim, I think. In a general way, the creature looks dynamic and appealing. Only on side vision I think it looks a bit generic, I don´t know.
    Anyway, the project is going well. Looking forward for updates.
  • Ferg
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    Ferg polycounter lvl 17
    you're a beast Jessica! So many projects, can't wait to see how this one turns out.

    For feedback, I've gotta agree with jramauri on the new front hands, they don't make much sense. Maybe combine the back feet style with the concept of the folding pincer foreclaw? Like, webbed fingers, but with one of the fingers larger than the others, serving as the claw? If the back feet were the only "flippers", they'd have to be much bigger to make a creature like this move underwater.
  • PaulP
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    PaulP polycounter lvl 9
    Looking very cool so far! I like how you thinned out the limbs, its giving the head much more presence to be menacing!

    For crits, I think the muscle definiation on the creature, along with its shape, is looking more like a grayhound then an aquatic creature. Maybe if you think more along the lines of rough or odd skin deformations (your reference images are perfect for this!), gills, scales, etc, it would help the creature feel more at home in an aquatic setting. Anyway, looking forward to your next update!
  • samcole
    My first impressions are this will be a creature that will be hunting in the dark. Since it has no ocular senses, and it seems pretty muscular in the lean sense. I expect it to swim fast, quick attacks.

    I think his main form of attack should be his mouth, so making his front legs have web'd feet would help the creature be able to propel itself through the water, or making the back tail fin larger to get it more power.

    I also imagine this creature to be colored dark, because it will want to blend into the wherever it is hiding..waiting for a innocent fish or other unsuspecting creature to come within its range.
  • Clintus Maximus
    Very cool! I dig the design!
  • bassmatt00
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    bassmatt00 polycounter lvl 7
    awesome creature! can't wait to see what your rider is going to look like
  • whalesharkbite
    This is really awesome, to comment on the new hands, it looks like this creature took on a crustacean's inspired attempt, I think this fits very well, hence if the creature "uses a sensory system to detect motion in the water in order to navigate" the narrowness of the hands seem more sensitive hence they are narrow, when you think of detecting sensory systems you think of antenna's which are usually skinny. However you may have other plans for his sensory inputs..

    And finally another thing this reminds me of is a "power pole" used in boats to anchor themselves but it still allows rotation. So if the creature could perhaps puncture the surface floor and hold a steady position, or maybe go to sleep, or feel vibrations within a surface better.
  • BARDLER
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    BARDLER polycounter lvl 12
    Looking good, but it might save you some time to sketch it out on paper first. That is what I personally like to do, but I guess it really depends on your style.
  • pseudoBug
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    pseudoBug polycounter lvl 18
    Is it still getting a rider?

    If so, I can't see where you'd ride without a huge risk of getting impaled. :P
  • altasa
  • Rapture117
    I am in LOVE with that character design. Literally got goosebumps when I first saw it haha. Kudos :thumbup:
  • Jessica Dinh
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    Jessica Dinh polycounter lvl 10
    Thanks everyone for the very helpful critique on design!

    jramauri, Ferg, SCB - I've decided to keep the front claws because giving him webbed fingers was making him look less menacing. However, to reinforce his swimming functionality, I took the advice of making the back feet and tail a lot bigger, and shrunk his front claws as well. Hopefully this also draws his appearance further away from 'grayhound' and more toward aquatic. I've added some scales and other skin details in the sculpt, but will work more on that in the texture as well.

    whalesharkbite, samcole - Thanks guys! Loved the impressions of his narrative. They really did help me to visualize him better :]

    Bardler - Part of our assignment for this project was to do the concepting solely in ZBrush. I guess this is because our teacher wanted us to get used to the interface and dynamesh's visualization abilities.

    pseudoBug - Hmmm, let's pretend those spiky things coming from his fins are soft xD I guess I could take them off, but I am trying to stick with a sharp shape language. What do you think? I do find it difficult to balance between functionality and aesthetics sometimes haha.

    So here is the final sculpt, or as final as time will allow. Retopo'd version will be posted soon, sometime Sunday I think. Thanks again for all the critique :)

    sN08R.jpg

    u3Kkt.jpg

    bm3dj.jpg

    SbiQf.jpg
  • Darkleopard
    Looking amazing, love the design.

    The bigger back legs look good for swimming but the upper leg muscle just looks to big for the body its connected to i think. Also im going to have to agree with other people on those front legs. While you've added some menacing in a way, i think your also taking away from it in another. You lose mobility by changing the front legs and i think in this case your going for a speedy creature. By removing some of the speed you're also decreasing its threat level.

    Just a thought anyway, still love it! Cant wait to see it done
  • Jeff Parrott
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    Jeff Parrott polycounter lvl 19
    Cool design. Really digging the forms there.

    The presentation needs to be tweaked. Drop the gradient fade in the bg (Document>Range to the left). That screams I just opened ZBrush look.

    Also I'd adjust the material to push the specular more since this is supposed to be a water creature.

    Add some sweet looking teeth too!
  • Jessica Dinh
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    Jessica Dinh polycounter lvl 10
    Thanks very much for the critiques guys. I've tried to incorporate as much as possible within my time constraints; this creature is due Thursday !! :poly142: Anyway, here it is retopped in Max - hoping to get some feedback before I begin unwrapping - how does the poly distribution look? Is the joint topology okay? Even though I won't be rigging for this project, I'd still like to implement correct topology for deformation around the joints. Ignore the seam down the middle, I will be attaching after I unwrap. Thanks in advance!:

    5,470 tris:

    Qyp3f.jpg

    33PBZ.jpg

    XfObH.jpg

    And the sculpt again for reference:

    u3Kkt.jpg
  • Stromberg90
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    Stromberg90 polycounter lvl 11
    Looks really nice, nothing to critic on now, looking forward to seeing the bake and textures :)

    Wow, both characters and environments ;)
  • toxic_h2o
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    toxic_h2o polycounter lvl 8
    Jessica how do you do some much at once? >< Im jelly. This is looking so cool. :]
  • Tigerfeet
    I made some scribbles for you :) As I understand topology, I think you want to try to minimize your triangles as much as you can, you seem to have quite a lot. Sometimes I think the biggest challenge modeling something is finding a way for edge loops to flow that eliminates as many triangles as possible. If you have to decrease polygons too I think it's better to do it gradually instead of at a pole.

    SeaCreatureRedline.jpg
  • dii
    Triangles are fine... That pole in the tail is bad news but otherwise it's alright. Game models should have a fair amount of triangles, if you don't have triangles in your mesh odds are your topology is not very efficient. Poles connecting "too many" edges are best avoided though for deformation reasons (you've got a few in the neck also, need to be careful with how you mirror geometry) cause you don't want one vert pulling too many edges during animation. I honestly don't think he needs THAT much geo in the ribcage of the torso, I'd collapse some of those edges and put more into the joints.

    Also worth pointing out that even a fully quaded mesh can have nasty poles in it depending on how it ends up triangulated. If you're using 3DS Max use turn edges to look at the models triangulation.

    In regards to the joint topology, here's a still relevant discussion on the topic: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61079
  • Jessica Dinh
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    Jessica Dinh polycounter lvl 10
    Awesome, I really appreciate the fast replies guys.

    Stromberg90 - Thanks! Yeah, school has us touch on everything haha.

    toxic_h20 - Thank youI but dunno what you are talking about man, you work REALLY fast xD

    Tigerfeet - Yes, these triangles sure are difficult to eliminate :x Thanks for pointing out some of the errors :], I will fix them.

    dll - Okies, I will cut down on the torso and fix the tris around the neck. I didn't know about the turn edges thing, I will def check it out, and thank you for the link as well!
  • Tigerfeet
    dll, thanks for putting me straight!
  • dii
    Oh man, missed something extremely important, do NOT use floaters for the fins. I don't know if those are just block ins or what but those aren't the kinds of things you want to float. They will slide like crazy during animation.

    I feel I've made a tremendous error naming myself dii cause it's always misread -____-
  • Jessica Dinh
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    Jessica Dinh polycounter lvl 10
    After implementing changes to topology, saved over 500 tris while maintaining the silhouette. Thanks guys!

    bake bake :] Just tried XNormal for the first time, love it !! super fast and easy to use 8] Texture progress to be posted soon:

    0VhEy.jpg

    DdkR0.jpg

    *EDIT: SORRY dii !!! I'll be sure to get it right from now on ! xD And thanks for pointing out about the floating fins - now that I have baked my normal map, I will attach them to the body (they didn't have anything to do with the bake, they will just have diffuse and spec on).
  • KyleJensen
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    KyleJensen polycounter lvl 12
    The bake turned out great. :D
  • Jessica Dinh
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    Jessica Dinh polycounter lvl 10
    Thanks Shad0wForce!

    Polypaint - critique and comments welcome:

    r4yS0.png
  • PaulP
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    PaulP polycounter lvl 9
    The polypaint is looking really good, especially around the legs. I think the topside could use a bit more colour variation. You could desat/lighten the colours in some areas to create the feeling of rough skin, or maybe add in some subtle contrasting colour variation like this. Anyways, nice update!
  • Tigerfeet
    I think it's a good start, and I really like the glowing bits along his back :) I think the rest doesn't have enough contrast though. Maybe making his underside much lighter would help.
  • njc6425
    loving how its coming along and those blue spots would come up a treat with a glow map applied. I think the skin needs to be broken up a bit, maybe give it a quick mottling pass. (Standard brush, alpha 48 (I think, the veiny one) white color, 5 rbg intensity and drag rect stroke type and just do heaps of that, helps to break up the color. And maybe the middle of the webbing should be a bit lighter/ red, try to fake some SSS. but really looking forward to how it ends up, looks great so far.
  • Jessica Dinh
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    Jessica Dinh polycounter lvl 10
    SCB, Tigerfeet - Thanks so much for the crits guys. I've added some more color, lightened his underside, and applied a glow map.

    njc6425 - I think that tip about the mottling pass worked really well, so thanks! Also still working on the webbing trying to fake some SSS.

    Progress - Critique and comments welcome! UDK Shot:

    iqlQU.png

    Color:

    siBfD.jpg

    Spec:

    Pfqt4.jpg
  • Jessica Dinh
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    Jessica Dinh polycounter lvl 10
    Okie, so this is what I turned in - final shots in UDK, and the latest wireframe. Critique and comments welcome as always!

    obl8n.png

    AS25w.png

    se2H6.jpg

    Character concepts will be posted soon!
  • gilesruscoe
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    gilesruscoe polycounter lvl 10
    I think the spec is too clean? just needs some more variation to make it more interesting. A preditor (?) like this would probably have a fair few scratches/inperfections on its skin. I like the glowing parts however, looks like some kind of deep sea creature.
  • Jessica Dinh
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    Jessica Dinh polycounter lvl 10
    Hey gilesruscoe, thanks. I agree the spec could use some more detail work, grime, scratches, and whatnot haha. I'll make sure to make a better spec for my character!! Speaking of.. here are some concepts and a concept mesh - basically me just trying to feel out some shapes before I go into cleanly reconstructing everything. Critique and comments welcome!

    Leaning toward the one in the bottom right at the moment:

    nuovw.jpg

    5p3TN.jpg

    An older iteration (might revert to some elements from this one..)

    90C5E.png
  • Xelan101
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    Xelan101 polycounter lvl 10
    I kinda like the Barnacle bumps on that older iteration, they would suggest that the armor, and most likely the creature wearing it are very old. If you want to go that route, sort of a sea-elf feel to it.
  • Jessica Dinh
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    Jessica Dinh polycounter lvl 10
    Thanks Alex, I agree, I'll put the barnacles back on the armor :]
  • Tigerfeet
    I definitely prefer the silhouette you get from putting that high collar in. Almost looks like fins against the head.
  • Redfender
    tentacles of some sort for its 'hair'? i hope you have time to get some details in on the rider. great stuff.
  • samcole
    Ooooh. You added glowy bits into the texture on the original sea creature. Nice! It makes sense cause the creature has no eyes. 8)
  • Jessica Dinh
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    Jessica Dinh polycounter lvl 10
    Hey guys, thanks! Made the armor in max; finally got it all imported to Zbrush and starting to sculpt. Gotta do somethin' about her face to make it more aquatic, add gills or something haha. Critique and comments welcome (she has arms, I swear, but they're really hideous atm so they're hiding):

    Some reference for design, color, and material inspiration:

    Gg6MJ.jpg

    vksyS.jpg

    uDve9.jpg

    Progress:

    7lW2h.jpg

    Thanks!

    Jessica
  • Xelan101
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    Xelan101 polycounter lvl 10
    Personally I think the flattened/non-existent nose in the concept helped with the in-human/aquatic feeling.I agree the face is far too human now when compared to the concept... If you want to keep the human nose then gills, like you mentioned, might be a good choice the question is where to put them...

    Logically, although I could be wrong on this, I think the gills would be lower down like along the neck or even on the body itself. However from a design standpoint putting some sort of gill on the face itself could look cool. you could even put them right under the cheekbones to emphasize them more and push her into a more "severe" pointed look.

    Also, personally I don't really like the lack of ears on her, I know that technically speaking flat ear-holes probably make more sense underwater, but like the flattened nose I think I prefer the concept, having some sort of noticeable delicate fin-shaped ears could really get her feeling more than human as well as add a bit more interest to the head.

    On a good note I'm really liking how sea-weathered coral-like and barnacley you've made the bit of armor you've sculpted so far.
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