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Importance of a degree in the gaming industry?

polycounter lvl 8
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Olli. polycounter lvl 8
Hey guys, I'd like some clarification on the importance of a degree in the gaming industry.

In some businesses (non gaming) i've heard that career advancement is extremely limited if you dont have a certain degree. Is this the case in the gaming industry?

example: Lets assume two people have exactly the same skill level and qualifications, but one does not have a degree. Does the one with the degree have a reasonable advantage over the one without a degree in getting a job and career advancement?

edit: crap wrong forum... someone move this to general discussion please :D

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  • BARDLER
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    BARDLER polycounter lvl 12
    I say yes it does, but not really. I will explain.

    Ultimately if you are trying to get a job as an artist you will be judged on your portfolio, not how you learned to make the stuff. However I think a degree makes a huge difference in your art if you get formal training on the fundamentals with good teachers. Things like perspective, composition, color theory, design, rendering, understanding anatomy, and understanding form all make a huge difference.
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    BARDLER wrote: »
    Things like perspective, composition, color theory, design, rendering, understanding anatomy, and understanding form all make a huge difference.

    All of which can be learned at traditional art courses at community colleges. I would never advise anyone to go to a 4 year school for game art. Even more so the art schools that end up costing $60k+
  • Olli.
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    Olli. polycounter lvl 8
    whats a community college?

    I've already got around 6 years CG experience under my belt, and since the game arts schooling selection here in finland is very slim (mostly focusing on 2D and mobile games) Im really just wondering if its worth the trouble going on a 3.5 year programmer just to learn a bit of art theory (which i already have an intermediate understanding of)
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    Sorry didn't realize you are in Finland, assumed you were in the USA. My advise doesn't apply as much then. I'd just suggest if your schools cost a lot of money try to minize how much you spend on them, cause they are often not worth their cost.
  • Kon Artist
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    Kon Artist polycounter lvl 8
    Short answer, depends on the place, but generally no. Skill and exp. are far more important then a piece of paper. But, if 2 people are applying for advancement and are equally skilled... In most cases the one with the degree would be given an edge IMO. I think a better question might be... will getting a degree in game design, art, or engineering help you reach your goals faster?

    Today, most studios expect engineers to have a least a four year degree. Game design programs are lagging behind a bit. Game art programs are a great opportunity for most-- here's why.

    + 2-4 years of intense focus on your craft and goals
    + networking with other students, faculty, and industry
    + working with a team
    + you should have a least one published game at the end of your degree
    + you can qualify for internships

    From personal exp. A few years ago I was working full time and spending every other minute learning stuff on my own. I would work on my art and built mods to gain exp. The thing is-- my full time job was taking 40-50 hrs a week. To me, it made sense to go to school full time, take out loans, so I didn't have to work. This allowed me to spend 100% of my time and energy on my art. I have drastically improved since then.:poly122:

    I wouldn't rush a decision like this and see if it's right for you. Look carefully at the schools. Is this school accredited (US), Is this school located near studios? Do any of the teachers work at those studios as well? Does the school have internship opportunities set up? Do you learn better with guidance from a mentor? Are you seriously going to put everything into to make it worth investing the money?
  • EarthQuake
    To get a job? No, unless you want to move to a different country, then a degree will help immensely with getting a visa. Unless you've already got 8-10 years experience of course, that will nullify a the need for a degree in most visa situations.

    To move up to lead/management role? It will help in this situation. You can do it on experience alone though too but it may be more difficult, especially at larger studios.

    To move into a executive/producer role? some degree is probably going to be required here, but a business degree or something, not a "video game" degree.
  • BARDLER
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    BARDLER polycounter lvl 12
    ZacD wrote: »
    All of which can be learned at traditional art courses at community colleges. I would never advise anyone to go to a 4 year school for game art. Even more so the art schools that end up costing $60k+

    Yea, I completely agree. Like I said it depends on the having good teachers who know there stuff.
  • Anuxinamoon
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    Anuxinamoon polycounter lvl 14
    All valid stuff already posted: I'll just add by posting this right here
    Chet Faliszek from Value Software on how to give yourself a job in the games industry, at the Eurogamer Expo 2012 Developer Sessions.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdwzvdZFxVM&feature=player_detailpage#t=1360s

    Started at the point where he talks about degree's.... but you should really watch the whole thing :)
  • poopipe
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    poopipe grand marshal polycounter
    From what I've seen interviewing graduates recently most game specific courses are pretty crap as far as teaching you relevant skills goes - they seem to take a scattergun approach which is largely useless in an industry where 90% of jobs are very specialised.

    there's no harm having done one of these courses but a good eye, artistic vision and a solid set of portfolio pieces is going to go a lot further (assuming you're fortunate enough to get an interview)
  • Olli.
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    Olli. polycounter lvl 8
    all schooling is free in finland so the price isnt really an option... Im actually getting PAID 500€ each month by the government for going to school lol.

    currently im studying automation engineering (not my thing), and im just juggling between sticking with automation and prioritizing free time to practice CG, or to change school to get a degree in art.

    If I do end up sticking with automation i'll probably quit once it becomes too time consuming and hopefully i'll have a proper portfolio by then to get a job..
  • Sage
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    Sage polycounter lvl 19
    if its free go to art school.. like a real art school... :D or go to school to be a dentist or other field where you can make a lot of money in if say your hopes of being a 3d artist never happen...
  • Zepic
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    Zepic polycounter lvl 11
    Olli. wrote: »
    all schooling is free in finland so the price isnt really an option... Im actually getting PAID 500€ each month by the government for going to school lol.

    Seriously, what's stopping you then? lol.
  • Olli.
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    Olli. polycounter lvl 8
    Zepic wrote: »
    Seriously, what's stopping you then? lol.
    I just want to know if its worth going to school, since if its not, then i shouldnt bother.

    considering all the replies I've gotten here I'll probably have to look in to changing school then.

    It'd be great to hear from anyone who has been to a game art school in finland but I highly doubt there is anyone like that here..
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    on the one hand, you'll be judged on your portfolio when it comes to getting a job. they will most likely take the guy with a proven track record of high quality art over a graduate with a couple of decent pieces.

    HOWEVER
    lacking a degree keeps a lot of doors closed to you that can be pretty difficult to open. immigration offices don't look at your portfolio, they don't look at how good an artist you are... they look firstly at your education, and then at referrals from your peers. if one or the other of those two isn't strong enough then you probably won't get a visa.

    there's an incredible, pretty well renowned artist i know (but won't name, unless they want to pipe up here themselves) who's having trouble with this themselves...
  • ambershee
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    ambershee polycounter lvl 17
    He's in Finland, so the need for a work visa only applies if he wants to emigrate to the US or Canada.
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    or anywhere outside of the EU...
  • Santewi
    Olli. wrote: »
    It'd be great to hear from anyone who has been to a game art school in finland but I highly doubt there is anyone like that here..

    There are such things in here? :O
  • Deadly Nightshade
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    Deadly Nightshade polycounter lvl 10
    Degree? No - not necessary at all: unless you want a job as a coder.
    Formal education? Yea because it helps A LOT!
    But even self-taught wizkids can land a job if they are naturals and work hard.

    But most important of all is experience... which is a bit "moment 22" if you are fresh out of school for example.

    << Went to a game dev school in Sweden (which is almost Finland :) )
  • Fango
    The main reason I'd do a degree is because it basically gives you 3 years to work on portfolio and your skills and not have to work a job at the same time.

    If its not going to cost you anything, its worth doing just for that reason alone.

    Also, it will make getting a visa a lot easier, and some large companies actually ask for a relevant degree to even get an interview.
  • David Wakelin
    Fango wrote: »
    The main reason I'd do a degree is because it basically gives you 3 years to work on portfolio and your skills and not have to work a job at the same time.

    If its not going to cost you anything, its worth doing just for that reason alone.

    Also, it will make getting a visa a lot easier, and some large companies actually ask for a relevant degree to even get an interview.


    I myself am doing a University Degree at the moment on Games Design, I get to pick specific modules that interest me or that i want to specialize in; in my case - I picked both environmental & character art in contrast to special effects or animation.

    However, I would not say its 3 years to work on your portfolio. The first two years are very restrictive; with meanless tasks to complete - especially as the majority of people whom are on the course don't really have experience in the field - these two years are more for them whom are learning the software and about the industry.

    The third and final year - is more or less "Portfolio" Year. Again, you pick the modules you like to specialise in; and get creative with a inspecific brief. i.e. "Master and Creature" or "Man and Machine" for character; here you can have as much input as possible; and to a better standard for a portfolio.

    As to whether or not you should go; that's entirely on you. I wouldn't change my experience at Uni for the world. This statement isn't about partying - before people assume, its merely the all-nighters working on a hand-in - whilst listening to nyan cat loop or hobbits to isengard for 8 hours throughout the night wight with your friends.

    - As for the comment about working at the same time; I work 3 days a week ontop of my studies to fund myself. Its not as easy as you may think.

    If its free; and its something your really enjoy; then go for it :)

    - just my 2 cents.
  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm interpolator
    poopipe wrote: »
    From what I've seen interviewing graduates recently most game specific courses are pretty crap as far as teaching you relevant skills goes - they seem to take a scattergun approach which is largely useless in an industry where 90% of jobs are very specialised.

    Actually I think that's one of the strongest points of college education. It gives you an environment, with expert tutors, to try out stuff! Young people can be very undecided of what they really want to do, and forcing them into a very specific role right from the start sounds just wrong.

    It's much easier if you discover at college that you for example really love animation over modeling. Discovering this during your first or 2nd gig just sucks and career changes can be annoying. College gives you a save environment to try out everything before you specialize - usually on your own time - but who said you can lean back once classes are over? ;).
  • renderhjs
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    renderhjs sublime tool
    degree != job ticket
    A degree as in the paper is very useless for a job - in the job world all that matters is experience. Its just wrong how some uni's sell their degrees as tickets into the professional industry.

    So the question should be: Does a degree matter for experience?
    Not necessarily but it gives you a foundation to build on, learning and building up experience is all hard work you have to do pretty much yourself. Its not something you can pay someone to teach you - its something you have to gradually build up ALL YOURSELF.
  • tristamus
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    tristamus polycounter lvl 9
    It's worth it and it's not. If it's free, you'd be insane not to do it. If it's not free, no way. I went to art school and the debt is still kicking my ass. I taught myself more than the school ever really did (Because some of the teachers weren't so great either). The only thing I got that was good out of the school was my network of peers and professors / game industry professionals / the motivation and cooperation in making a game with my peers.
  • tristamus
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    tristamus polycounter lvl 9
    renderhjs wrote: »
    degree != job ticket
    A degree as in the paper is very useless for a job - in the job world all that matters is experience. Its just wrong how some uni's sell their degrees as tickets into the professional industry.

    So the question should be: Does a degree matter for experience?
    Not necessarily but it gives you a foundation to build on, learning and building up experience is all hard work you have to do pretty much yourself. Its not something you can pay someone to teach you - its something you have to gradually build up ALL YOURSELF.

    Exactly.
  • l.croxton
    My advice from someone who did a BSC in Games Production, it was probably the biggest waste of time in respect to gaining the skills needed. However if you need a few years for whatever reason to get yourself together, (in my case I grew up alot as a person) then I think University is very much worth it.

    However if you decide to go for it, the golden piece of advice I wish I had but did not until the very end is. Do your DEGREE work FOR THE DEGREE. NEVER DO DEGREE WORK FOR YOUR PORTFOLIO. 9 times out of 10, you try and do portfolio work for your degree your marks will suffer. There is no point doing a degree for any other reason than gaining the best possible mark you can from it. Once you have done that work, then work on your portfolio. Plus there seems to be a stigma attached to the line of "This is what I did at University".
  • Jedi
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    Jedi polycounter lvl 10
    I know some guys that work at ILM and dreamworks (not games, i understand). They both say that the only thing that matters is your 'demonstration reel' and that degree in art is (to paraphrase) laughable.
  • Kon Artist
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    Kon Artist polycounter lvl 8
    I agree, some schools over sell their programs. For artist it's your portfolio that will get you an interview. There is a reason on your resume that education is listed at the bottom and work exp. at the top.

    If you chose to go to school to learn anything, chose carefully. Can you learn everything on your own? One of my favorite quotes from the movie Good Will Hunting... "You could have got the same education at the library..." However, I would find it hard to believe that if you can learn something on your own, that you wouldn't be able to learn it faster with help from the right people. (why are we here on polycount asking for help, feedback, comments and criticism) Again, if your considering going to school-- specifically for game art (as most programs are fairly new) DO YOUR HOMEWORK.

    Make sure the school is credited (US), see if the teachers have or are working in the industry, will you build a project that will be published?, are their alumni being hired, or starting successful companies?, etc...

    Again the piece of paper will NOT get you a job. But going to school CAN open doors. Just like you would need to on your own, you must work hard... extremely hard in school. Any art program isn't going to tell you everything you need to do or teach you everything you need learn. Great students (which hopefully we all are) are always learning. This means putting in extra time and going above the assignments when at school.

    For every person that says it's not worth the time and money you'll find someone that thinks otherwise.
  • AlexLeighton
    I don't think it can hurt, especially if it's free. I'm in my 3rd year now of a game art program, and I generally feel that the classes themselves have been a waste of time and money. The problem I guess is that the classes move at the pace of the dumbest student, so unless that happens to be you, you end up getting bored pretty quickly. As an example, I have a class in Unity, and I taught myself in a few weeks this summer everything we're going to cover from now until April.

    This all being said though, I've made some good contacts, and I'm working on some fun projects, and it's definitely a stimulating environment to be in, outside of class.
  • aajohnny
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    aajohnny polycounter lvl 13
    Well I'm going to chip in on this thread since I have been debating on this for a very long time. I am majoring in Graphic Design at a small private college, and I go tuition free because my mother works there. I am currently a Junior although I am a few credits behind "schedule" I feel that this has not be benefiting me at all. Actually a waste of time I must say. My parents are really forcing me to finish school even though they don't understand much about the video game industry. I have spoken two a few studios and may get an offer and I am preparing for that. Should I stay in school and finish up? or take a break from school/drop out and work on 3d, or accept an offer if given to me? This is really tough. I don't want to regret this in the future but I am unsure of what a graphic design degree will even get me anyways.
  • rogelio
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    rogelio greentooth
    aajohnny: If the offer is good take it!

    Quick self history, I entered county college graphic design I was doing mods for a while than I got an offer from Epic. I took it, it was a contract gig for a year on Unreal Tournament 2004. I loved it. The contract ended I went back home. Went back to graphic design county college. Got so tired of it that I started to apply for game positions. I got some really great offers, but I turned them down. I decided to enter School of Visual Arts. I knew I was putting a break on my game profession, but I knew at the end I was not going to be able to do what I wanted in a game company besides the work given. So I decided on self study and using School as my means to do it. ( See while I was at Epic I saw the highpoly modeling being do for normal baking next gen stuff and I was god smacked, the game was Gears of War atm called Warfare ) So I wanted to do that. That is why I decided on a personal study and using school for that. But what I did not realize was that taking a computer art degree was the best thing ever. See the computer art program at school of visual arts teaches vfx and movie type production scenarios. I have learned so much about composition, color theory, pacing, and so much more. Artists that do not have those foundations are easy to spot and usually stumble around not knowing why stuff does not mesh together. I am not saying school gives you that, but it helps.

    I was like a lot of people on this thread saying school is not important. I think school is important. but if you take school for the wrong reasons than do not go. County College was a waste when I was taking my graphic design degree... well not completely... because I know how to make fake logos for textures...

    Since out of school I have had the great opportunity to work at Crystal Dynamics for "Tomb Raider" as Sr. Environment Artist and now I recently moved to Naughty Dog as a Environment Texture Artist. I feel grateful to have and be part of on a new awesome team.

    How can I build a building without building a strong foundation.

    Every interview I get asked if school was worth it. I say yes. I learned a great deal I would otherwise not cared to learn that helped in the way I see the world now.

    I think I would have Regretted not going to school. I would have highly regretted it and not known why. Well SVA was were I met my wife :)
  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm interpolator
    Finish it - dropping out is just throwing away what you already accomplished. Afterwards you have at least a degree. It will probably be of no use when hunting for a job. But do some long term planning: if you ever, for whatever reason, want an advanced degree because your job pushes you in a certain direction or if you get tired of games, you can go on to a masters. Or if you find a study that would really complement the skillset you got at work? Or what if you ever want to move overseas?

    Getting back into a dropped study is difficult at a later point in time and you may regret not finishing it. I'd say the more options you have the better - having an undergrad degree just gives you more options to where to steer your career in the long run.

    I had the same feelings when I studied - waste of time, yadda yadda. But now, 10 years later, I value the education much more and I'm happy I finished.
  • trebor777
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    trebor777 polycounter lvl 10
    +1 Kwramm
    I learned a lot there but most of the stuff is personnal learning, teachers just points the right direction if you bother to ask them. But what is important with such Schools, is the networking you're creating with your classmates, even if they're in a different class or even degree :) You might see them in a few years later with a job for you or them knowing someone etc..
    Such Schools are also "pools of talents", it's easier for recruiters to look at some students from a school, as there are more people it's easier to find the rare item if you see what i mean, rather than searching for the random awesome portfolio you've seen once somewhere on internet.
    The Degree in itself, doesn't mean much, except for Work Visa, but it's what is all around it that is important.
    I did a BA and an MA, although my BA was meeeh, my master year was brilliant :) really enjoyed it and met awesome people (and really talented, (Graze if you read this ;) )) in their BA or MA.

    For art, portfolio still matters more but for technical stuff, it's the opposite afaik. :)
  • sprunghunt
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    sprunghunt polycounter
    Based on some recent experiences from talking to people at work I think that if someone is interested in the games industry they should try to get a contract QA position first (become a tester) then go to school.

    This way if they still want to be in the games industry they'll have a much clearer idea of the level of skill required while also having a bit of industry experience.
  • Fefs
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    Fefs polycounter lvl 3
    Hi! I was looking for some kind of scholarship or ways to keep my studies in game design
    and I found this Master's Programme in New Media; Game Design and Production ( http://www.aalto.fi/en/studies/education/programme/game_design_production_master/ ) I can pay the expenses to live there ....the school is almost free in Finland compared here. For someone that have a bachelor's diploma in game design and digital entertainment from Brazil it's amazing that it can be so cheap to make a MA there, and I researched and just saw good things about the education and the country...

    But I still have a lot of questions if between the MA in games it will worth it or not for the industry , if it is really a good school ( if someone studied there, please tell me and if possible what do you think about), if someone know another alternative? For work as a teacher I know that is a very good thing to have, but for someone that is not it will bring some benefits? My under graduation did not made any magic for me, the hard work did much more.

    So this is the story and I want to hear what do you from polycount think about all this, if is too far to go or not for education and about Master degrees in general too please ^^
    Thanks!

  • Scruples
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    Scruples polycounter lvl 10
    Portfolio is king, my first employers reaction when I told him I went to VFS was 'Oh neat, was it fun?', (paraphrasing a little) it really didn't matter.
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 17
    Go to school if it motivates you to finish projects.
    Go to school if it enables you to get an overseas visa easier.
    Don't go to school to save yourself money(if applicable).
    Don't go to school if you can motivate yourself.
    Degrees don't mean anything when you are in the industry, no one cares about your pieces of paper as long as you produce well and work well in whatever environment you are in. The work you complete trumps any passe notions of achievement from 'accredited' sources.
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