Not sure if this is the right topic for this, but I am new here and not sure where to ask about this.
Started modeling objects for games in my free time many years ago, when normal maps for games was new (2004) and I never understood the high poly to low poly workflow.
I would approach modeling like this:
(model in this case is a Thompson M1921 weapon)
1. Model poly by poly, no boxmodeling, and no sub-d. Aiming for a reasonable polycount and adding a bit more in spaces where a lower count would be too visible (cylindrical shapes viewed along their longitude axis). Then I would end up with 7000-12000 polies.
2. Unwrap and slap some normal map on it generated from the texture.
3. Add some AO
Now I am going to guess on how it is supposed to be from what I learned so far:
1. Make high poly model (how many polies? 100k?)
2. Do not unwrap highpoly because not needed for baking normal. (is this correct?)
3. Downsize the highpoly model to a lowpoly one. How is this supposed to work? Using some modifier or similar function in a 3d modeling package would not really work if I want precise control over what gets reduced. Or does one model the whole thing from scratch? Which again seems a lot of work to make a few things look a bit rounder. Why not simply go for 20-50% more polies in the first place on areas that need more detail?
As you can see from the text, 3. is the point I dont really understand and would like to ask for advice for.
No need to unwrap high poly for baking just make sure the low has its uv's right all in the 0 to 1 and not overlapping.
Modeling low poly should be pretty fast and its better because extra polys add up. The extra 100 here and there in places on one model means jack all but when you have a giant game world the billions extra add up to lag or higher minimum specs meaning less sales.
Good place to make high poly is Zbrush or Mudbox which can be millions of polys a model. Those programs have a feature to make a low poly out of it but the mesh normally sucks and you have alot of cleanup to do which may or may not be worse than modeling a whole new low poly.
You can take your high poly mesh into maya for example and then make your low poly mesh around it as a guide too which works well making it poly by poly. In fact thats how you do characters
1. Model Low-ish poly and manually increase the detail where you want it, then use that as a high poly for normal maps. Basically bolting high poly stuff on the existing low poly.
2. Model High poly with a 5-10 higher polycount then later reduce to a low poly.
To me the first method seems a bit more effective. I mean it would be easier on that thompson to select specific parts, remodel them to high poly while keeping my precisely poly by poly modeled low model, instead of slowly downgrading from several 100k of polies.
Also if I would uv map my low poly, should I do that after the highpoly is baked?
I think I have a solid grip on low poly modeling and not being too wasteful, so going back to the existing model and blowing up the polycount for high poly purposes seems the way to go.
(please advise if I am about to do something bad using this approach)
No need to unwrap high poly for baking just make sure the low has its uv's right all in the 0 to 1 and not overlapping.
I'm curious as to where you're getting this information from. The UV's of your high-poly doesn't matter at all when it comes to baking - At least not in my experience.
I'm curious as to where you're getting this information from. The UV's of your high-poly doesn't matter at all when it comes to baking - At least not in my experience.
thats exactly what he is saying
tho highpoly uvs might come in handy with baking down detail maps for instance, or many productions texture the highpoly, not the lowpoly and bake it down later on, this will for instance make sure changes don't break the sync between high and low, or will guarantee to lods (or 3rd person assets) having proper normalmaps and textures as they are automatically handled by the pipeline. Any change to color, shape or whatnot can automatically be carried over to all lowpolies
This shape is having its filthy filthy way with me. I'm very open to critique/suggestions on how to handle something like this. Thanks in advance guys!
Hi, I'm having a problem with the smoothing on this, I'm using the double smooth technique without so many edge constraints to limit the amount of verts to edit, should be nice and smooth on the corner but can't figure out whether it's the edge flow or not enough geo? If its geo, how should I redo it?
Tim1 , that has been covered countless of times in this thread, please read the first 3 or 5 pages to understand it. No point in having a thread where the same question keeps beeing asked over and over again...
I´m trying to create a perfecto hole in a cylinder, the worse part is when I have to align the vertex with the surface, this is the best that I´ve done so far.
I´m trying to create a perfecto hole in a cylinder, the worse part is when I have to align the vertex with the surface, this is the best that I´ve done so far.
Any help please?
Can't really say what's going on with your picture.
Care to show the whole thing with and without wireframe?
This entire thread is devoted to pretty much making holes in cylinders. Did you have a look through the thread?
I can't see the entire model, but you'll have pinching because of the direct n-gon above the circle. Why not align the circle center to one of the edges, it'll make it much easier to create a smooth result.
Edit* I rephrase my original question a bit: I want to make this 'crown' shape where the base is rounded and my hard edges are smooth after sub-D, and with no visible seams. After trying many things I'm starting to think that there is no good solution for this problem as I can't havearounded base going seemlesly into those not rounded teeth. I don't want to give more geo into the low poly, tomake it even more rounded, and any edgeloop I add to the highpoly to strenghten the edges will not keep the roundness of the base. (at least I don't know how to do it in Blender)
So I wonder what would be the good solution for this problem? Thanks!
Thanks, I realized that if I need to to look 'perfect' I need to add more divison on the 'teeth' 's low poly, that I don't want. But using blend modifier to model these kind of stuff is a useful tip.
can anyone give a little advice with a curiousity i've been having. what would you do, how should the topology flow in order to get a clean set of ridges like these?
i built the gun once already with god awful topology (ugly creasing errors galore) and now i'm going at it again with a few months of knowledge under my belt.
i guess for reference here's what i did the first time, came out okay with a few levels of subdivisions, but not a "pretty" as i'd like.
such things are best done at the stage of texturing fake geometry. it is much easier and faster, and gives high quality results. You do not need to model every detail. it's a waste of time.
show this: https://youtu.be/VQ0wQG7TKPc?t=1595
I'd model those groves because you want to control how it terminates, and you will see it up close in an FPS. There is a lot of detail that can and should be done with tools like Substance painter, like the handle grip, logos, and text.
@maksoon & @ZacD
Thank you the advice, Substance Painter is definitely looking like a worthwhile investment. And I very quickly(and painfully) realized the futility of modeling the proof marks and text into the gun itself, mocked up some simple meshes and baked out some normal maps to stick on.
Hey ya'll. First time peaking in this thread. I read all 216 pages these past 5 days. I now come with troubles of my own.
I'm modeling a steampunk version of the Kyushu J7W, and while making the hull, I'm stumped as to what to do with the edge sharpness of the wing-mounted stabilizer. This thread gave me a lot of neat tips, but I'm stumped as to how improve the edge flow or density to get a nicer, crisper edge. Thoughts?
I like it the way you have it, Armangelo. Having a more broad falloff on that front section makes it feel more aerodynamic, in my opinion. If you would like to tighten it up, Shinigami's suggestion would probably work well.
Ah, I think I should have clarified better. It's not much the front end of the stabilizer, but the straight line at the back. That is the section that Should be more crisp. I'll keep iterating. Thanks anyways, Shini!
I have this simple pattern that i want to duplicate across to form a wall or floor or whatever. Can i just combine them instead of merging verts, because it doesnt seem to welcome that unless i go to each 2 verts. Also i see that it would be too many polys, should i texture such things as mentioned above by zacD? To me im faster modeling the certain patterns and shapes than i am texturing. But obviously a more complex one would be better done in 2d.
also i got a problem when i subd, i add edge loops to sharpen certain edges on a cylinder but it gives me a sharp edge all the way to the bottom where its supposed to be smooth, because the edge loops run all way around the shape. I know beveling fixes that, but also gives triangles and makes it tough to alter. Is there any other way?
@Dklang, first one definitely make a tileable texture.
2nd, quite possibly one of the most aggravating things ever. Off the top of my head I have 3 solutions;
1)go in and work the the topology itself, get the loop to travel back around the top of the surface rather than ever touching its side, or terminate it with a pole before it trails down the side.
2) (not sure how or if this one would work in maya, that is Maya right, I'm just not familiar enough with it. a trick I've used in blender and seen in modo, is to shrink wrap the problem shape to a highsubdiv "perfect version" then the bad areas will follow the natural curve of the object and will subdivide properly(the method is best used with pritives though, so make a cylinder and limit the vertices affected by the shrink wrapping so you don't affect the top.
And 3) manually maneuver the edge so that the curve you want shows up, requires the least thought, and usually the least time.
Experiment a bit with it
(Would try to make some example shots, but alas, phones don't run 3d software too well)
As it is right now I have a cylinder and a Poly Torus, but it creates a very harsh edge (the last two images in that slideshow)
Thank you.
Sure, don't know if you can understand how it's made from the pictures, but:
36 sides cylinder (probably can be done with less, but 36 is default so I left as it), subdivide like I show in the last picture, then select what's highlighted and start extruding, then using a circle spline (or another polygon object) subdivided the right amount (in this case 8 sides), you snap the extrusion you made, delete the inner face and mirror the other sides, connect the other parts to make it as quad as possible, Sub-D it, done!
@Shinigami, I though HP objects had to be model in a way so that it is flexible. So that in the future if I were to edit the object it wouldn't cause a lot of "damage"
What I'm asking is that that since edgeloops determine the shape of edges, as well as the flow of the high poly. Would the images I made above be an efficient/organized way to achieve it? Is there a better way than what I did?
What I do is just, bevel,knife, collapse edges, add loops. <-- That's the basics right?
Issues of proportion aside, this feels like a trainwreck, topologically. I'm not sure how to terminate the hardened edges (noted) at the base of the cylinder, and the whole thing just feels awkward in general. I've started it multiple times, not happy w/ anything. Anyone feel like they want to take a crack at it fresh?
I'm kind of confused with incomplete bevels. I made these and I was wondering are they "optimized" or can they be better?
What's an "incomplete bevel?"
I guess I see what you're doing there, enlisting existing geometry to aid in adding hardening edges, and keeping everything as quads. Are you doing this just as an exercise, or are you really just looking for a simple way to model that particular shape? Why not just do the below? I feel like I'm missing something here.
@GhostDetector: thanks, I stole a couple of good ideas you had in there, and wound up with this, which is all quads, YEEUUUH. The diamond near the base pinches a little, but it's not bad.
I'm building a small scene of the Star Wars Jedi Council, using mainly the Disney Clone Wars show as my reference.
I've started with what I felt was the simplest chair in the scene as a confidence build-up thing, as they are all quite tricky shapes to high poly. Here's what I have so far,
Issue #1: There are small pinching artefacts based on my topology. Essentially, I know that the solution is to add more sides, but when I was modelling this starting with a lot of sides would have made it more difficult. I also started with a plane, then extruded from it.
Am I going to have to remodel the whole thing to fix these? Essentially I know I've hacked this object together a bit; but is it worth going back and fixing this sort of error or will it not show up on a normal map anyway?
Issue #2: How would I go about modelling the cushion on the back? You can see that I've already started, but once I got to the sort of rounded corner and the arm of the cushion is where I got stuck. I've had a few tries at it now and it just ends up with a bad result each time.
As above, any help is appreciated. I've also made an FBX version of the model available.
SonicBlue, Yourname942, since I haven't harped on this in a while:
"Lots of edges" is seldom the right answer. Instead take a minute to understand the topology at hand.
Here the only area of complex intersection is (A) - this curved lip. Since we need at least two edges to define it properly, just find what percentage of a full circle that range covers, and multiply that up to find the total number of segments for the cylinder, in this case 16, as opposed to the 36 and 50 used earlier.
If the size of the lip shape lands near a clean number, just modify the shape and use that clean number. The difference will be negligible.
MOAR LESS.
You're right, in the video I did it with 24, haven't tried with less.
Watching more carefully the references, my shape is not even correct.
Thanks for that, I'll have a mess about with the topology to see if I can do it a bit similar to yours - the only issue is that it's slightly curved so I do need to maintain the curvature. But if the artefact isn't going to be too visible I'll probably just get on with it.
Does anyone have any advice for tackling the unusual cushion shape? Thanks!
Replies
You seem like you are getting there...keep going?
Unless there is a specific part you are getting hung up at.
No need to unwrap high poly for baking just make sure the low has its uv's right all in the 0 to 1 and not overlapping.
Modeling low poly should be pretty fast and its better because extra polys add up. The extra 100 here and there in places on one model means jack all but when you have a giant game world the billions extra add up to lag or higher minimum specs meaning less sales.
Good place to make high poly is Zbrush or Mudbox which can be millions of polys a model. Those programs have a feature to make a low poly out of it but the mesh normally sucks and you have alot of cleanup to do which may or may not be worse than modeling a whole new low poly.
You can take your high poly mesh into maya for example and then make your low poly mesh around it as a guide too which works well making it poly by poly. In fact thats how you do characters
1. Model Low-ish poly and manually increase the detail where you want it, then use that as a high poly for normal maps. Basically bolting high poly stuff on the existing low poly.
2. Model High poly with a 5-10 higher polycount then later reduce to a low poly.
To me the first method seems a bit more effective. I mean it would be easier on that thompson to select specific parts, remodel them to high poly while keeping my precisely poly by poly modeled low model, instead of slowly downgrading from several 100k of polies.
Also if I would uv map my low poly, should I do that after the highpoly is baked?
I think I have a solid grip on low poly modeling and not being too wasteful, so going back to the existing model and blowing up the polycount for high poly purposes seems the way to go.
(please advise if I am about to do something bad using this approach)
I'm curious as to where you're getting this information from. The UV's of your high-poly doesn't matter at all when it comes to baking - At least not in my experience.
thats exactly what he is saying
tho highpoly uvs might come in handy with baking down detail maps for instance, or many productions texture the highpoly, not the lowpoly and bake it down later on, this will for instance make sure changes don't break the sync between high and low, or will guarantee to lods (or 3rd person assets) having proper normalmaps and textures as they are automatically handled by the pipeline. Any change to color, shape or whatnot can automatically be carried over to all lowpolies
Model out something like this:
Then something like this and just use booleans to cut the geometry:
Then just clean up the geometry.
Here is a quick and shitty example of what I did in few minutes:
I read it as if he wanted no overlapping UV's on his high-poly, not his low-poly. Haha, my bad. Sorry for the confusion.
Started from a cube to match the perspective. You can get pretty close with only so much geo.
Thanks for your time.
http://i.imgur.com/SCoQ0Cy.jpg
step 1.
Create a Box (turn into edit poly)
step 2.
Copy the box and put a TS on it with 2 iterations. Than an Spherify Modifier
step 3.
Move them to the center, and make sure that the Sphere is scaled up bigger than the box.
step 4.
Choose the sphere and go proboolean, choose intersection and pick the box.
step 5. Clean clean clean.
step 6.
Move vertex around and add supporting edge.
Any help please?
Can't really say what's going on with your picture.
Care to show the whole thing with and without wireframe?
I can't see the entire model, but you'll have pinching because of the direct n-gon above the circle. Why not align the circle center to one of the edges, it'll make it much easier to create a smooth result.
I have a little pinching at the corners, here the shade model.
Thank you again for your advice.
Here the vertex that I pull back
And the result
So I wonder what would be the good solution for this problem? Thanks!
Use a Bend deformer (or something like that):
i built the gun once already with god awful topology (ugly creasing errors galore) and now i'm going at it again with a few months of knowledge under my belt.
i guess for reference here's what i did the first time, came out okay with a few levels of subdivisions, but not a "pretty" as i'd like.
such things are best done at the stage of texturing fake geometry. it is much easier and faster, and gives high quality results. You do not need to model every detail. it's a waste of time.
show this:
https://youtu.be/VQ0wQG7TKPc?t=1595
Thank you the advice, Substance Painter is definitely looking like a worthwhile investment. And I very quickly(and painfully) realized the futility of modeling the proof marks and text into the gun itself, mocked up some simple meshes and baked out some normal maps to stick on.
I'm modeling a steampunk version of the Kyushu J7W, and while making the hull, I'm stumped as to what to do with the edge sharpness of the wing-mounted stabilizer. This thread gave me a lot of neat tips, but I'm stumped as to how improve the edge flow or density to get a nicer, crisper edge. Thoughts?
I have this simple pattern that i want to duplicate across to form a wall or floor or whatever. Can i just combine them instead of merging verts, because it doesnt seem to welcome that unless i go to each 2 verts. Also i see that it would be too many polys, should i texture such things as mentioned above by zacD? To me im faster modeling the certain patterns and shapes than i am texturing. But obviously a more complex one would be better done in 2d.
also i got a problem when i subd, i add edge loops to sharpen certain edges on a cylinder but it gives me a sharp edge all the way to the bottom where its supposed to be smooth, because the edge loops run all way around the shape. I know beveling fixes that, but also gives triangles and makes it tough to alter. Is there any other way?
@Dklang, first one definitely make a tileable texture.
2nd, quite possibly one of the most aggravating things ever. Off the top of my head I have 3 solutions;
1)go in and work the the topology itself, get the loop to travel back around the top of the surface rather than ever touching its side, or terminate it with a pole before it trails down the side.
2) (not sure how or if this one would work in maya, that is Maya right, I'm just not familiar enough with it. a trick I've used in blender and seen in modo, is to shrink wrap the problem shape to a highsubdiv "perfect version" then the bad areas will follow the natural curve of the object and will subdivide properly(the method is best used with pritives though, so make a cylinder and limit the vertices affected by the shrink wrapping so you don't affect the top.
And 3) manually maneuver the edge so that the curve you want shows up, requires the least thought, and usually the least time.
Experiment a bit with it
(Would try to make some example shots, but alas, phones don't run 3d software too well)
Slideshow:
http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/Yourname942/slideshow/Polycount%20Shape%20Question
NonSlideshow:
http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/Yourname942/library/Polycount%20Shape%20Question?sort=6&page=1
As it is right now I have a cylinder and a Poly Torus, but it creates a very harsh edge (the last two images in that slideshow)
Thank you.
Sure, don't know if you can understand how it's made from the pictures, but:
36 sides cylinder (probably can be done with less, but 36 is default so I left as it), subdivide like I show in the last picture, then select what's highlighted and start extruding, then using a circle spline (or another polygon object) subdivided the right amount (in this case 8 sides), you snap the extrusion you made, delete the inner face and mirror the other sides, connect the other parts to make it as quad as possible, Sub-D it, done!
I am also currently using a 50 sided cylinder.
50 is not good, is not perfectly symmetrical, 48 would work better, but the more edges you have, the more it gets hard to manage.
[ame]
At some point the SHIFT lock for the knife got lazy and didn't want to lock when I wanted, the video should be understandable.
Triangle can be at any angle except 90
Triangle only at 90
What I'm asking is that that since edgeloops determine the shape of edges, as well as the flow of the high poly. Would the images I made above be an efficient/organized way to achieve it? Is there a better way than what I did?
What I do is just, bevel,knife, collapse edges, add loops. <-- That's the basics right?
Issues of proportion aside, this feels like a trainwreck, topologically. I'm not sure how to terminate the hardened edges (noted) at the base of the cylinder, and the whole thing just feels awkward in general. I've started it multiple times, not happy w/ anything. Anyone feel like they want to take a crack at it fresh?
What's an "incomplete bevel?"
I guess I see what you're doing there, enlisting existing geometry to aid in adding hardening edges, and keeping everything as quads. Are you doing this just as an exercise, or are you really just looking for a simple way to model that particular shape? Why not just do the below? I feel like I'm missing something here.
Thanks, I called it an incomplete bevel for lack of a better term.
(left bevel doesn't bevel all the edges while the right one does)
I'm doing this as an exercise before I try out some more difficult models.
As for the faucent handel, It looks like a twisted screw. 1/2 round 1/2 sharp with a twist
I think I was able to do it.
Its just that the slop of the curve is bigger
here is the reference
here is what i'm doing:
thank you
I'm building a small scene of the Star Wars Jedi Council, using mainly the Disney Clone Wars show as my reference.
I've started with what I felt was the simplest chair in the scene as a confidence build-up thing, as they are all quite tricky shapes to high poly. Here's what I have so far,
Issue #1: There are small pinching artefacts based on my topology. Essentially, I know that the solution is to add more sides, but when I was modelling this starting with a lot of sides would have made it more difficult. I also started with a plane, then extruded from it.
Am I going to have to remodel the whole thing to fix these? Essentially I know I've hacked this object together a bit; but is it worth going back and fixing this sort of error or will it not show up on a normal map anyway?
Issue #2: How would I go about modelling the cushion on the back? You can see that I've already started, but once I got to the sort of rounded corner and the arm of the cushion is where I got stuck. I've had a few tries at it now and it just ends up with a bad result each time.
As above, any help is appreciated.
Not exactly like that, but with some adjustment you can get the same "curvature" .
I have to redo it to explain the process.
You're right, in the video I did it with 24, haven't tried with less.
Watching more carefully the references, my shape is not even correct.
Thanks for that, I'll have a mess about with the topology to see if I can do it a bit similar to yours - the only issue is that it's slightly curved so I do need to maintain the curvature.
Does anyone have any advice for tackling the unusual cushion shape? Thanks!
Unsure if my approach produced better results than yours, but here's my take on the chair cushion built using your FBX.