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Objectifying women...

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BradMyers82 interpolator
I recently saw this article on Polycounts Gavin Goulden's work on Bioshock "Buried at Sea"
here: http://kotaku.com/bioshocks-characters-were-not-born-they-had-to-be-mad-1482347062#!

Awesome work... but of course we have in the comments all this stuff about objectifying women. I'm so tired of hearing this. The focus should be on the high quality art, and accomplishments in the game!

Why do some women (and men I guess) still take this stuff personally?

Has anyone ever heard of guys getting pissed about gears of war characters with huge biceps and stuff. "I can never get that big, therefore I am seriously offended!", Sure guys might say it looks stupid, but not feel bad about themselves.

Personally, I'm indifferent on the subject. I like stylized stuff at times and realistic at other times. If its too over the top, then it just looks silly to me.
But, If you want more realism in games don't support the ones that stray from it. It's simple economics that drives these design choices. Please stop crying about it.

Replies

  • WarrenM
    You're really not seeing it from the other side and that's understandable- you're male. You grew up with it and it seems like it's what should be normal to you. Talk to a few women and get their perspective on it, through the lens of their life experiences. It's pretty depressing.

    "Please stop crying about it."

    Cold and unnecessary. The same could be thrown back at you.
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 18
    In before lock. But there is a major flaw with your biceps laden men.

    Thats a male power fantasy.

    The women are a male sexual fantasy.

    Hope this helps, and look for the memes in games thread (locked) thread for more discussion.
  • Gmanx
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    Gmanx polycounter lvl 19
    I would agree there's an issue to be dealt with. It might achieve some kind of resolution as the male/female ratio of gamers evens out (as it seems to be doing). I just hope no-one reads my sig.
  • Francois_K
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    Francois_K interpolator
    "It'd be cool if videogame companies hired artists who don't constantly beat off while designing female characters."

    This is the only comment that pissed me off along with the wall of text after that.

    It's like the internet got together and got all the male-whiteknights and the feminists together in a stampede to eradicate anything which has breasts and shows a bit of skin.

    This is hardly something to protest about , I think in this case it's very silly.

    ku-xlarge.jpg

    I read your signature and I'm reporting you to Anita Sharkesian.
  • Gav
  • ExcessiveZero
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    ExcessiveZero polycounter lvl 6
    well a lot of this was stirred up by a feminist named anita, the unfortunate thing I found was her valid points were bound to be drowned out by her numerous controversial practices, such as using other peoples footage and giving a one sided view towards video games, unfortunately the most damning footage came up after she became irrelevant more or less to the mainstream society.
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6a57MjmpoI"]Anita Sarkeesian is a Liar - YouTube[/ame]

    Now do I think videogames Objectify and have Objectified women disproportionately, yes I do, but I don't think any of these problems are linked infact to videogames, its more deep seeded in our nature and our history, and anyone who disbelieves that needs to read the Odyssey, if ever a woman was seen to be a prize to be won, it can be found in that classic tale.

    But humans as a whole are increasingly objectified in the media, characters with big muscles or great skills create a warped view of what it is to be a man as much as this does a woman, but then do I think we should start censoring the right to tell a tale or experience something through the eyes of these gods among men? absolutely not.
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdrE1VMxzoE"]Diet Coke-Diet Coke Break - YouTube[/ame]
    (go on tell me they were checking out his personality)

    the objectification of people through the media whether realistic or unrealistic is a fact of life unfortunately,I don't support it, and fully think it can be damaging to people's images and self esteem, so all I think we can ultimately do is try and educate people that we are all loving human beings with our own independent thoughts, desires and ideas and not merely the pound of flesh that surrounds our bones.

    As for Elizabeth herself I found her character rather emotionally deep and did not see her as a sexaul object throughout the first game (have yet to play the DLC) and thank god too! id say more but no spoilers lol
  • BradMyers82
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    BradMyers82 interpolator
    Well I suppose it’s a matter of how you perceive things.
    In reality: If someone is better than me at something I feel driven to get better, knowing in many cases it’s impossible for me to achieve what the very best have. It seems that others reaction is to feel bad and inferior. I applaud others for their accomplishments.
    In fiction: I know what’s real and what is not. If its distasteful to me I’ll essentially turn it off. There is no logical reason a person should compare themselves to something that has no grounds in reality.

    The reason I’m “Cold” is because I think people shouldn’t take this so seriously. And what can really be done about it, other than vote “no” (don’t support things you don’t approve of). Certainly you can’t take away a person’s right to design these characters and it would be a horrible world if you did.

    [edit] well said ExcessiveZero
  • skylebones
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    skylebones polycounter lvl 10
  • Shiniku
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    Shiniku polycounter lvl 9
    Objectifying women is bad, and a lot of us are blind to it, but I think a lot of people have started looking for objectification so much they find it where there is none. Someone is going to be offended no matter how you make your fellows. I think a slow change is inevitable, but giving a woman stylized disney-esque proportions is no where near being the problem.
  • Zwebbie
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    Zwebbie polycounter lvl 18
    I'm trying my very best to stay out of this discussion again, but I think it's important to note that game artists have an idea of 'high quality art' that often doesn't correspond to the way other people view art and its functions. My art school teacher linked the documentary series Ways of Seeing from 1972 to me a short while ago, and I think the second episode, about the depiction of the female nude, is very enlightening in this regard — and I heartily recommend the other three parts as well:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1GI8mNU5Sg"]John Berger / Ways of Seeing , Episode 2 (1972) - YouTube[/ame]
  • [Deleted User]
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    [Deleted User] insane polycounter
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  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    You can't compare it to the male power fantasy of GOW characters, I think maybe 2 or 3 times in the history of polycount a sexually objectified man gets posted and the whole forum practically breaks their "report" button with howls of "I shouldn't have to look at this shit".
  • BARDLER
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    BARDLER polycounter lvl 12
    There is clearly an issue with objectifying women in video games, but I do not think Bioshock Infinite is a good example of this at all. Objectifying female characters happens in the story as well as the actual design of the character. Never does the story of Bioshock Infinite or the DLC put Elizabeth out as a prize, or some shallow motivation for the player to save the pretty girl. The only thing about her that is sexualized is her proportions, but her outfit is really reserved so I do not see how anybody could have a problem with that.

    On the other side of it, it is absolutely not fair to say that sexualized male characters, like Gears of War, is on the same level as sexualized female characters. There is a deeper issue besides the visual look of the character and simply saying it is just good art work doesn't make up for it.
  • valuemeal
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    valuemeal polycounter lvl 6
    Seems pretty meaty if you ask me, the sexism part.

    When I see a barely clothed lady in games, comics or shows, it seems to insult the intelligence of the viewers and detract from the overall mood of the story. That is no good.



    The fan service on the that new "Kill la Kill" and "One Piece" is rather appalling and undermining the bizarre designs, and unusual special attacks.

    There was a singing ship, a lady who could turn anything into abstract art, and dude with the power of push and pull; yet all some people care about is "shipping" and how hawt some lady is.



    Fellows are always making the beautiful barely clothed ladies instead of the special attack types, that is no good, we are game fellows after all and that should be the most important factor you know? I think we should strive to make more memorable strange characters instead of these heartthrobs and meat dudes.
  • BradMyers82
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    BradMyers82 interpolator
    TeriyakiStyle: LOL! The thread was really started as a vent/rant.

    I know its not gonna change anything really, and starting this thread I was well aware I might get personally attacked for doing so. (It really doesn't bother me if I do get attacked for my opinion in this case).

    Funny you say "Sick art GAV!" since I'm defending it, as others have pointed out its a long stretch saying this objectifies women.

    That said, it is really interesting hearing the feedback here. I'm pretty surprised its such a hot topic really.
  • [Deleted User]
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    [Deleted User] insane polycounter
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  • MrHobo
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    MrHobo polycounter lvl 13
    Your first problem was that you were reading Kotaku's comments section.
    But really, that outfit is oversexed? THAT?! Considering 50's fashion, I'd say it's right on the money... for fuck's sake the skirt goes past the knees!
    If anything that persons comment was sexist.
  • lotet
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    lotet hero character
    Heeere we go again
    I'm_outta_here!.gif
  • BradMyers82
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    BradMyers82 interpolator
    LOL...

    Ok two things I didn’t bother mentioning because I didn’t think it was necessary…
    1. Actually I did search and found a thread started by Ben Mathis, (which was closed already), so I started a new thread thinking it was relevant to some people. Since so many have already posted here I think I have proven it was worth starting this thread. Just because its not important to you, (although you still take the time to read this here for some reason) doesn’t mean its not important to everyone, or that everyone is already as informed as you.
    2. I did start this thread to defend Gavs art in that, because I felt it was such a stretch that his stuff with bioshock was sexist. Like how far will this go seriously? That was the root of what irritated me enough to start this thread.
    However, there is really no point in me explaining this or defending myself.

    TeriyakiStyle: But please don’t let this deter you from continuing to post here.
  • Bigjohn
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    Bigjohn polycounter lvl 11
    What we're all forgetting though is that porn is awesome. Let's not forget that.
  • iniside
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    iniside polycounter lvl 6
    WarrenM wrote: »
    You're really not seeing it from the other side and that's understandable- you're male. You grew up with it and it seems like it's what should be normal to you. Talk to a few women and get their perspective on it, through the lens of their life experiences. It's pretty depressing.

    "Please stop crying about it."

    Cold and unnecessary. The same could be thrown back at you.

    I surerly tell you one thing. I do not give a shit, how man are portrayed in games, or internet, or how woman are, or who ever is. Anyone who treat internet(or any other medium for that matter) seriously and takes everything as personal offence deserve to be hunted by 4chan, and see what it really is to be taken seriously by internet.

    These are not women. These are feminists. Feminists are not women. They deserve to be extradited to different galaxy. World will be better without them. They should take along with them other fanatics as well.

    Women I know, don't even care about this shit.


    tl;dr version.
    I'm sick of political correctness, not naming things as they are, instead inventing new phrases to make them less insulting. The point of telling truth as it is, is to make people think.
    Now we just make up nice words and and think that nothing really happen. Because hey.. nice words!

    Just to be clear. Let them talk whatever they want. But never let situation where I will talk whatever I want and they will feel insulted and mark me as <racist, facist, chauvinist, etc> and try to censor me, because they do not agree with what I'm tell them (and I will not be polite, I will speak as I see it). If you will feel insulted, assaulted or discriminated, you skin in not thick enough to handle the truth or you known from the start that your "arguments" were worthless.

    tl;dr 2
    World is ending. People don't have better problems, than feeling insulted because of artificial character in entertainment medium. Mark my words. Western world will end in 15 years if people will still care about just minor crap non-issues, rather than some serious ones...

    That's my little rant about state of humanity.
  • [Deleted User]
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    [Deleted User] insane polycounter
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  • Snader
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    Snader polycounter lvl 15
    Brad. I honestly can't be bothered to read all posts and get deep in the discussion right now. So I'll just say this. Look at your own portfolio.
    bradm3dfolio.jpg

    All your guys are rough and, in a sense, ugly. The only woman you've made is generically attractive with smooth creamy skin, a form of abstracted perfection. That's essentially what the argument is about.
  • Shiniku
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    Shiniku polycounter lvl 9
    iniside, your tl;dr version is 34 words longer than the preceding text.
  • iniside
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    iniside polycounter lvl 6
    Yeah well. It happens when you start rant about something :D
  • Isaiah Sherman
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    Isaiah Sherman polycounter lvl 14
    It's Kotaku. Comments there are no more legitimate than the whining on Youtube.
  • Jesse Moody
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    Jesse Moody polycounter lvl 17
    just because you are offended it does not give you power. Seriously. In other words, if you don't like something do not participate.

    I am not a fan of getting a handy from some old guy in the steam rooms at my gym so I don't participate but hey maybe it is for some people. I don't burn the place to the ground.

    (perhaps i am a bit off in my example but for real...)
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    you don't like free handy-jay's Jesse?
  • Shiniku
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    Shiniku polycounter lvl 9
    Uh... yeah, where's this gym at? I was looking for a new place to get a good uh... workout.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    What are you saying? the game industry is the steamy back-room with hand jobs?

    I'm going to look for some steamy deviant art pics/models of men to post later, now you guys have to stick to your values and not rage-report it and bawl about having to wash your eyes out with bleach; compare that to how the "feminist" respond and you could say they are showing saintly levels of restraint.
  • dissonance
    TBH I genuinely don't care about these kinds of issues, so I guess I'm an insensitive prick, but instead of bitching and whining about the current state of things (goes for both sides), why not try to change it? If you don't like the lack of strong female lead characters, make a game with a strong female lead. If you're upset that all males you see in games being mindless, linebacker refrigerators with heads, make a game with a scrawny, vulnerable male as the main character. If you don't want to do either because you're afraid of how it would be received, that says a whole hell of a lot more about the consumer than it does the developer.
  • Jesse Moody
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    Jesse Moody polycounter lvl 17
    What are you saying? the game industry is the steamy back-room with hand jobs?

    Isn't that how E3 was for so long? All kidding aside...

    EX5v4.jpg
  • JacqueChoi
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    JacqueChoi polycounter
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpJGkG1g-Lk&quot;]Quick Rant - The solution to sexism In video games! - YouTube[/ame]
  • LRoy
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    LRoy polycounter lvl 10
  • BradMyers82
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    BradMyers82 interpolator
    Nice link JacqueChoi.

    Snader: yea man, you make a good point. But honestly, I just make what interests me because 3d is such a slow process I need to really like what I'm doing. Also, from an artist standpoint the male characters are extremely good looking in my eyes. By this I mean, strong features and characteristics are what I find most interesting. The one female character I made was inspired by FirstKeeper's Windrunner: http://firstkeeper.deviantart.com/art/Sylvanas-Windrunner-177432486
    Which by the way was made by a female! :)
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    iniside wrote: »
    I surerly tell you one thing. I do not give a shit, how man are portrayed in games, or internet, or how woman are, or who ever is. Anyone who treat internet(or any other medium for that matter) seriously and takes everything as personal offence deserve to be hunted by 4chan, and see what it really is to be taken seriously by internet.

    These are not women. These are feminists. Feminists are not women. They deserve to be extradited to different galaxy. World will be better without them. They should take along with them other fanatics as well.

    Women I know, don't even care about this shit.

    Wat
    iniside wrote: »
    tl;dr version.
    I'm sick of political correctness, not naming things as they are, instead inventing new phrases to make them less insulting. The point of telling truth as it is, is to make people think.
    Now we just make up nice words and and think that nothing really happen. Because hey.. nice words!

    Just to be clear. Let them talk whatever they want. But never let situation where I will talk whatever I want and they will feel insulted and mark me as <racist, facist, chauvinist, etc> and try to censor me, because they do not agree with what I'm tell them (and I will not be polite, I will speak as I see it). If you will feel insulted, assaulted or discriminated, you skin in not thick enough to handle the truth or you known from the start that your "arguments" were worthless.

    Wat???
    iniside wrote: »
    tl;dr 2
    World is ending. People don't have better problems, than feeling insulted because of artificial character in entertainment medium. Mark my words. Western world will end in 15 years if people will still care about just minor crap non-issues, rather than some serious ones...

    That's my little rant about state of humanity.

    *facepalm*
  • Swizzle
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    Swizzle polycounter lvl 15
    I usually try to avoid this whole debate because it just tends to bring out the crazy from both sides of the argument, but... holy shit. I can't not comment on this:
    iniside wrote: »
    These are not women. These are feminists. Feminists are not women. They deserve to be extradited to different galaxy. World will be better without them. They should take along with them other fanatics as well.

    Really?

    REALLY?

    I try to avoid associating myself the school of thought that thinks every single patch of skin in a movie or video game or whatever is some sort of defining moment in the quest for equality, but this just rubbed me the wrong way.

    Feminism and feminists are the reason we have things like women's right to voting, women in high political and economic stations, and women being able to do things like go out in public without a man's supervision. Feminism is why we have things like women being educated and making informed decisions about their lives and the lives of others. Feminism is why there is now widespread healthcare for women that can actually cater to their needs and not just give them useless folk medicine. Feminism is why women are now allowed to pick out the clothing they wear. Feminism is why women are not treated as property. Feminism is why women can own property.

    Feminism has led to the shocking, shocking realization that women are actually human beings.

    If anyone should be shipped off to a different galaxy, it's the people who don't understand the impact of saying stupid, ignorant shit. Like you.
  • HitmonInfinity
  • dissonance
    Also I love how completely pervasive brutal violence is in videogames, and here we are worrying about cup size.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    I find it funny when you guys quote Stephen Fry, maybe you should tweet that image back to him when he's criticizing Russia over their treatment of homosexuals.
  • dissonance
    haha
    "do as I say, not as I do"
  • GarageBay9
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    GarageBay9 polycounter lvl 13
    oXYnary wrote: »
    In before lock. But there is a major flaw with your biceps laden men.

    Thats a male power fantasy.

    It's also frequently a female sexual fantasy.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    But anyway, I see the report threads, if anything the men on polycount have the most issues with objectified men. Granted, it seems more along the lines of sexual insecurity rather than having issue with being depicted as a sex object.
  • Shiniku
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    Shiniku polycounter lvl 9
    But anyway, I see the report threads, if anything the men on polycount have the most issues with objectified men.
    Obviously I haven't seen the reports, but I have seen that and I am surprised by the communities reaction. It often does come off as a little hypocritical with the sexualized women all over the place. Personally I don't find either offensive, especially in the context of this board. It's definitely weird how much guys seem to freak out when they see a boner attached to a sexy naked dude instead of a tank or helicopter.
  • shotgun
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    shotgun polycounter lvl 19
    Always relevant
    He-Man.gif

    And yes, in a patriarch world, women get the stick end of the.. er stick. Not fair, not equal, it is what it is.

    Plus, when fat ugly women see this sexist objectification, they get offended, grow armpit hair and become feminist (of the bad type), all cuz they know they'll never reach that ideal standard.

    Fat ugly men just jerk off and move on. We don't care. He-Man super ripped and awesome? Fuck yea!
  • ebagg
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    ebagg polycounter lvl 17
    If someone is offended over a piece of game art, fine, we all have our touchy subjects, I'm not going to say you shouldn't.

    However, if that same person starts spouting off calling the guy (or GAL) who made the art, saying they're some sex-deprived loser who is destroying equality, then they're just showing ignorance. You cannot shame artists out of creating idealized subject matter, and you cannot cleanse the world of art that you do not like!

    I respect any woman who says "this piece of art makes me feel this way because of this" and I want our industry to be full of as much diversity as possible! If game studios had 50% women, that would be nothing but beneficial in my opinion. But the women (and men) who see a piece of art, especially one as stylized (AND TAME) as Elisabeth, and start slamming the creators, calling them a bunch of pervs who are jerking off as they create art? That's flaming, not helping progress the industry.
  • WarrenM
    Also I love how completely pervasive brutal violence is in videogames, and here we are worrying about cup size.
    What I find most frustrating in these sorts of threads is people who just spectacularly don't get it. It's not about this one image, or that one drawing, or that one model, or that one stupid comment some internet troll made.

    And until you understand why it's not, you can't really contribute to these threads outside of cutesy gifs and statements like, "OMG, don't get offended! You have no right!"

    Fuck. Maybe it's an age thing, I don't know.
  • WarrenM
    BTW, I'm saying nothing about Gavin or his work. He's a cool dude and his work is just amazingly top shelf stuff. None of this should reflect on him, he's creating the art that his employer asked him to - and doing a stellar job.
  • ExcessiveZero
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    ExcessiveZero polycounter lvl 6
    iniside wrote: »
    These are not women. These are feminists. Feminists are not women. They deserve to be extradited to different galaxy. World will be better without them. They should take along with them other fanatics as well.

    Women I know, don't even care about this shit.

    Regardless of where I logically stand on the issue I take offense to that, my girlfriend is a feminist(Shocker I know!), the same rights that allow us to create the content we like, is the same rights that allow people to express their views.

    I think I made a very clear point about society objectification, which is aimed disproportionately at women, but its a shame we can't have a reasonable debate when there are so many fanatics on both sides when we could just get on with discussing this completely reasonable issue.
  • Sinking
    I think objectifying women starts with the recipient, not the sender of the "message".

    For example, when I see Elisabeth from Bioshock, I see a technically great model, based on a concept that incorporates "noir" features and the ideal body shape from an era when women shaped their curves by wearing a corset. It is a modern adaptation and a stylized version of a woman from a particular era. And both the concept (art) as well as the rendering are very well accomplished. So all I see is a great model + a job well done.

    That these features don't pertain to any existing/real life counterpart should be just as clear. Even that Russian lookalike needs a lot of push ups and helpers to look that much like Elisabeth.

    And this may be the flaw maybe - we keep translating games into reality. But games are fictional and don't mean to mimick real life. At best they comment on it, like the GTA series does; but that is Satire (which is also not understood very well any more). We have to stop confusing games with life. It's been proven that violence and gaming are hardly related, so why are some people still riding the generic "games are objectifying women" routine?

    -> actually, technically speaking it is even true, because everything in games is just an object, either dynamic or static.
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