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TB2 beta thread

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  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    also, if you feel like making something specific to TB2, and want a rough idea of how your textures should be set up. feel free to ask!
  • ishi_kawa_cg
    Thanks!:)
    EarthQuake wrote: »
    Great stuff as always Yosuke! Parallax and refraction have not gotten back in but are on the todo list.
    Thank you so much for sharing, Yosuke. I love seeing the King Kong vs. T-Rex showdown again!

    Parallax, Refraction, and Blending are missing right now, but not forgotten. We will get those back into Toolbag 2.0 soon.

    davyjones&maccus
    davy_maccus1.jpg

    I really like the Local reflection.
    davy_maccus2.jpg
    davy_maccus4.jpg
  • EarthQuake
    We're working on some improvements to the skin shader, among other things the translucency works much better now. Here's a quick shot with Adam Fisher's excellent jouster model.

    afisherladyskin02.jpg
  • bartosh44
  • bartosh44
    We are looking into supporting camera data and baked animation data from Alembic and/or FBX, but we are quite certain that any such support will not be a Day 1 feature.

    Thanks for that statement. I am very happy that you are think about release that feature in future. I hope that will be soon :) I think it will change your software into realtime render engine with possibility of telling short story through game engine without rendering :) and it`s Epic in my opinion...
  • [Deleted User]
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    [Deleted User] insane polycounter
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • Katonc
    [QUOTE=

    To delete an unused material: click on it in the mat editor and hit the delete key on your keyboard, or are you saying this doesn't work for you?

    Sorry we do not have any documentation yet. I'm a little confused about your comment on the direction of the specular reflections. Could you elaborate a little?

    Thanks[/QUOTE]

    I ment for unused materials, and option to delete all unused materials. Because right now in the scene, other than altering a material, it is hard to know if it is applied. Sometimes I dont name everything perfect and with a more complex scene, it would be nice to have an option to delete all unused materials. Otherwise I have to check one by one, of which ones are applied and which ones arent.

    My comment on specular was confusing. I ment I dont understand the direction you are taking the specular model. But it sounds like you are adding a metal mask.

    Also does the spec control the IOR? Or does spec function like the old specular? The spec and gloss just dont work like I would think. I could make some images later, but..
    When I apply a map to the gloss, say a black and white one, that is very contrasty with scratches, I would think I would see that on the model, where the whites are supper tight and the blacks are really broad, almost not even there.
    And same for the spec, if I apply a high contrast map in that slot, it doesn't seem to do much either. Is anyone else having issues with them? I find it doesnt respond like I would think. That is why I asked if there is documentation with examples. I want to see how your maps would look on something like a really warn metal, with clean parts and rusty parts.

    Katon
  • nksilver5
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    nksilver5 polycounter lvl 5
    Hey guys :)

    Just started messing around with it, did a very dirty fast nade with some materials to see how it reacts. I have metal / paint / dirt and paper thingy mat on this.

    Looking pretty neafty so far, will try more things tomorrow, especially about the reflectance.

    I'm making a list of features / suggestions / bugs as I work with it, so will keep you posted :)
  • EarthQuake
    Katonc wrote: »
    I ment for unused materials, and option to delete all unused materials. Because right now in the scene, other than altering a material, it is hard to know if it is applied. Sometimes I dont name everything perfect and with a more complex scene, it would be nice to have an option to delete all unused materials. Otherwise I have to check one by one, of which ones are applied and which ones arent.

    My comment on specular was confusing. I ment I dont understand the direction you are taking the specular model. But it sounds like you are adding a metal mask.

    Also does the spec control the IOR? Or does spec function like the old specular? The spec and gloss just dont work like I would think. I could make some images later, but..
    When I apply a map to the gloss, say a black and white one, that is very contrasty with scratches, I would think I would see that on the model, where the whites are supper tight and the blacks are really broad, almost not even there.
    And same for the spec, if I apply a high contrast map in that slot, it doesn't seem to do much either. Is anyone else having issues with them? I find it doesnt respond like I would think. That is why I asked if there is documentation with examples. I want to see how your maps would look on something like a really warn metal, with clean parts and rusty parts.

    Katon

    Make sure gloss and spec are set to 1 when you've got a gloss/spec map loaded. I think they default to rather low values, which means your mask is only controlling a small range. This is fixed in the latest build (when you load a map it snaps to 1 now).

    Dark and light values in the gloss/spec maps should have a very noticable effect:
    on top, an image with 20 values in 5% brightness incremenets applied to the 20 spheres, in the gloss and spec slots
    middle: spec only
    bottom: gloss only
    glossspec.jpg

    I can PM you a link to some content to play with.
  • Fingus
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    Fingus polycounter lvl 11
    I'm curious, does your roughness value control the diffuse (meaning micro-facets) as well? I have been tinkering with writing shaders lately and read up on surface behavior. Been interested in trying to write a shader where roughness proportionally controls gloss/spec/diffuse since from my understanding they are all related. I'm mainly wondering if that is a feasible approach.
  • bartosh44
    I am curious what will be maximum polygon count or maximum object count in Marmoset Toolbag 2? How big scene could be loaded into MT2?

    What about Occulus Rift support? Will Marmoset Toolbag 2 support movement camera through Occulus or only watching camera view without feedback. If it would react with Occulus it should allow make virtual walkthrough of 3d scene in game engine.

    What about steering camera inside the virtual view (keyboard arrows, controler? Then hardware like http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1944625487/omni-move-naturally-in-your-favorite-game should also make possible walking thorugh the virtual scene :)
  • artquest
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    artquest polycounter lvl 13
    Fingus wrote: »
    I'm curious, does your roughness value control the diffuse (meaning micro-facets) as well? I have been tinkering with writing shaders lately and read up on surface behavior. Been interested in trying to write a shader where roughness proportionally controls gloss/spec/diffuse since from my understanding they are all related. I'm mainly wondering if that is a feasible approach.

    I asked about this as well. I don't think it's currently implemented but monkeyscience said they are looking into it.


    EQ: wow the adjustments to the skin shader are amazing!

    Also, I asked about this before but there's a lot going on in this thread so I wanted to bring it up again in case it got missed.

    The size/softness control on the light, what is actually happening with this control? The reason I ask is because I want to know if I'm breaking physicality when I adjust the slider or if it's actually changing the size of the light and keeping the fall off of the light as quadratic(physically based)? To me the lighting is pretty great but I still feel like it could use some minor tweaks.

    - Implimenting a kelvin based setup for scene lighting in the future is something I would really love to see. You already have it set up for heat maps, just apply this to lights and it would make my day.

    - Light falloff in TB2 doesn't quite feel like what I'm used to with mental ray and point lights using quadratic falloff). (it doesn't even feel the same as what I see in maya viewport 2.0 with quadratic falloff)
    Lighting is looking really nice so far but I feel like it's 1 step away from where it needs to be.

    Here's the same scene as below in maya viewport 2.0 with quadratic falloff (regular lambert applied). Notice how much hotter the sphere is then the door. I know the rest of it isn't physically accurate but this same effect happens with mental ray and the mia material x shader as well(although not quite as pronounced). iZZICi31TGGEL.jpg

    Also here's some of the artifacting I get when adjusting the size/softness

    iIe8WyVC9Vfhk.jpg
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    playing around with the skin shader, hoping to have something solid to demonstrate on sunday. getting some decent results so far and i really love the flexibility of this thing!

    currently specular and gloss are set to constant values, there are no maps in use for them yet. those will come shortly.

    Qik7jub.jpg
    eyeXZ7Q.jpg
  • Fingus
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    Fingus polycounter lvl 11
    artquest wrote: »
    I asked about this as well. I don't think it's currently implemented but monkeyscience said they are looking into it.


    EQ: wow the adjustments to the skin shader are amazing!

    Also, I asked about this before but there's a lot going on in this thread so I wanted to bring it up again in case it got missed.

    The size/softness control on the light, what is actually happening with this control? The reason I ask is because I want to know if I'm breaking physicality when I adjust the slider or if it's actually changing the size of the light and keeping the fall off of the light as quadratic(physically based)? To me the lighting is pretty great but I still feel like it could use some minor tweaks.

    - Implimenting a kelvin based setup for scene lighting in the future is something I would really love to see. You already have it set up for heat maps, just apply this to lights and it would make my day.

    - Light falloff in TB2 doesn't quite feel like what I'm used to with mental ray and point lights using quadratic falloff). (it doesn't even feel the same as what I see in maya viewport 2.0 with quadratic falloff)
    Lighting is looking really nice so far but I feel like it's 1 step away from where it needs to be.

    Here's the same scene as below in maya viewport 2.0 with quadratic falloff (regular lambert applied). Notice how much hotter the sphere is then the door. I know the rest of it isn't physically accurate but this same effect happens with mental ray and the mia material x shader as well(although not quite as pronounced). iZZICi31TGGEL.jpg

    Also here's some of the artifacting I get when adjusting the size/softness

    iIe8WyVC9Vfhk.jpg

    Might be a stupid question, but are you using linear workflow in Maya? It's a hassle to set up in MR, and it doesn't really work in Viewport 2.0 since as far as I've experienced gamma correction doesn't show up in the viewport (unless they fixed that in alter versions).
  • artquest
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    artquest polycounter lvl 13
    I'm running into a problem today. I can't figure out why but I had TB2 hardlock my machine 3 times in a row. Everytime my machine crashed I had just taken my camera below my object and looked up at the sky (through the back of a single sided ground plane) and then my mouse stopped working and all response from my machine stops. I have to kill the power just to restart it.

    I'm running an nvida GTX 680 and my drivers are up to date.

    P.S. Some of my scene files aren't remembering the filepaths to textures when I re open them later.


    EDIT:
    Fingus wrote: »
    Might be a stupid question, but are you using linear workflow in Maya? It's a hassle to set up in MR, and it doesn't really work in Viewport 2.0 since as far as I've experienced gamma correction doesn't show up in the viewport (unless they fixed that in alter versions).


    Not a stupid question at all! The first time I put together the example it was quick and dirty, it wasn't linear at all. I knew the effect happens even in MR with a full linear workflow too but the effect isn't as pronounced as in a non linear setup. But since you challenged me I figured I should double check my hypothesis :) Maya 2014 allows gamma correct nodes to effect viewport 2.0 so you can have a fully linear workflow in the viewport if you so choose.

    Here's a shot of the scene with a linear setup.
    ivXnxr7kVYpaW.jpg



    EDIT 2:

    Continuing to mess around with the skin shader :) Can't wait to get the new build with those updates EQ posted :)

    iblak5b5WVD760.jpg
  • seth.
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    seth. polycounter lvl 14
    new build anticipation has set in :D....working more on skin....with help from Gir...still a way off but getting there

    olga%20wip%20018.jpg

    Sugestions:

    could the up and down keys be used to tweak values like in photoshop?

    the ability to hide and unhide meshes in the scene viewer would be ace.

    on/off light switch like in TB1

    maybe bug: shadows acting odd, but I will try to recreate and get a video before I confirn that...could just be my card.

    really enjoying this software though, great work guys :D
  • stefanobernardi
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    stefanobernardi polycounter lvl 8
    I agree with other users about the fact that a shader similar to the recent UE4 demo would be really important since it will be the new highend rendering standard for realtime assets; I was looking at the images recently posted by Efgeni Bischoff and I think they re using a similar shader setup for the next killzone:

    http://videogame-art.com/portfolio/assault_troop/

    Is it possible to achieve this level of detail with Substances?
  • Froyok
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    Froyok greentooth
    I agree with other users about the fact that a shader similar to the recent UE4 demo would be really important since it will be the new highend rendering standard for realtime assets; I was looking at the images recently posted by Efgeni Bischoff and I think they re using a similar shader setup for the next killzone:

    http://videogame-art.com/portfolio/assault_troop/

    Is it possible to achieve this level of detail with Substances?
    I think you will need tilling textures (patterns) * opacity masks to achieve this level of details. Does TB2 supports this with its current shaders ?
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    I agree with other users about the fact that a shader similar to the recent UE4 demo would be really important since it will be the new highend rendering standard for realtime assets; I was looking at the images recently posted by Efgeni Bischoff and I think they re using a similar shader setup for the next killzone:

    http://videogame-art.com/portfolio/assault_troop/

    Is it possible to achieve this level of detail with Substances?

    it's possible to achieve that through substances.
  • Jerc
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    Jerc interpolator
    I agree with other users about the fact that a shader similar to the recent UE4 demo would be really important since it will be the new highend rendering standard for realtime assets; I was looking at the images recently posted by Efgeni Bischoff and I think they re using a similar shader setup for the next killzone:

    http://videogame-art.com/portfolio/assault_troop/

    Is it possible to achieve this level of detail with Substances?

    You can :)
    Most people using Substance in AAA studios use it for all the static blending and compositing (base material definitions, wear and tear) and then use a shader to add detail textures (created with Substance) where needed or vertex color based effects that need to be dynamic to achieve a higher level of detail.
    I guess it's a matter of tradeoff between performance, ease of use, efficiency, and dynamicity.

    Edit: almighty_gir beat me to it!
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    Local reflections on:
    TcZapVW.jpg

    Local reflections off:
    dZpYoz6.jpg


    Local reflections are really fucking cool. they (in my opinion) need a little refinement to stop some things glowing, like the lips for example. but otherwise they're really good. they add something extra special.
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy interpolator
    Looking cool, Lee! :D

    I'm not sure if I have mentioned this before but I think a slider to control the strength of the local reflections is really needed. Even if it a blended between no local reflections and local reflections it would be something worth having I think :)
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    yeah or maybe even a mask for it (in fact a mask would be awesome). but since they're screenspace that might not be possible.
  • cw
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    cw polycounter lvl 17
    Out of interest, is there an AO channel separate from the other maps?

    Seems like the local reflection would probably be attenuated by ambient occlusion (local reflection is environment/ambient specular in essence). In general it can be nice to have ao split out of the other maps in its own channel especially if physically based shading is being used since occlusion has quite noticeable effects on lighting.

    Mebbe it's already there, or I am rambling after a pint. Either could be true. :)
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    there isn't.

    i actually meant to request a cavity input for masking off lighting for fine details.
  • EarthQuake
    Local reflections on:

    Local reflections off:

    Local reflections are really fucking cool. they (in my opinion) need a little refinement to stop some things glowing, like the lips for example. but otherwise they're really good. they add something extra special.

    Looking great Lee! There was actually a bug that we nailed down with the SSR, SSR strength was tied to sky exposure (which was causing issues with exposure values less or greater than 1). Maybe that will help.
    Looking cool, Lee! :D

    I'm not sure if I have mentioned this before but I think a slider to control the strength of the local reflections is really needed. Even if it a blended between no local reflections and local reflections it would be something worth having I think :)

    Why would you ever want to turn down SSR? :poly142: Its on the list though.

    divinghelmet02.jpg

    Wip highpoly, plan on doing low + texture to test out the new workflow with metalness map.
    there isn't.

    i actually meant to request a cavity input for masking off lighting for fine details.

    Not in the build that is out in the wild but will be in the next update. Slots for AO and also a separate slot for cavity.
  • EarthQuake
    artquest wrote: »
    I'm running into a problem today. I can't figure out why but I had TB2 hardlock my machine 3 times in a row. Everytime my machine crashed I had just taken my camera below my object and looked up at the sky (through the back of a single sided ground plane) and then my mouse stopped working and all response from my machine stops. I have to kill the power just to restart it.

    I'm running an nvida GTX 680 and my drivers are up to date.

    Ouch. Theres a bug with SSR that was causing some hard crashes for me too. I think we got a fix in for that yesterday. Did you have SSR on when it crashed?
    P.S. Some of my scene files aren't remembering the filepaths to textures when I re open them later.


    EDIT:

    Not a stupid question at all! The first time I put together the example it was quick and dirty, it wasn't linear at all. I knew the effect happens even in MR with a full linear workflow too but the effect isn't as pronounced as in a non linear setup. But since you challenged me I figured I should double check my hypothesis :) Maya 2014 allows gamma correct nodes to effect viewport 2.0 so you can have a fully linear workflow in the viewport if you so choose.

    Here's a shot of the scene with a linear setup.
    ivXnxr7kVYpaW.jpg


    I don't think the light falloff is quadratic, we'll probably look into the light falloff stuff a bit more, theres some stuff that is a bit funky with lights and scale as well that needs to be looked into.
    EDIT 2:

    Continuing to mess around with the skin shader :) Can't wait to get the new build with those updates EQ posted :)
    Looks great, I can't wait to see it with the improved skin shader.
  • cw
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    cw polycounter lvl 17
    It is sounding like this tool will be 'the one' :)
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    OOOOKAY!

    (good work Seth, i will steal your skin shader secrets later!)

    Here's how this weekend is going to work:
    I've just created a dropbox folder. anybody who is interested in getting their work in to see how it looks will have to do, and agree to the following:

    1. email me at Lee_devonald@crazyferretstudios.com confirming you want to take part.
    2. accept the invitation to the dropbox folder you will receive shortly afterward.
    3. upload a PASSWORDED zip file to the dropbox folder, containing the mesh file, and any texture files (please make sure they're named sensibly so i don't have to decode them and figure out what goes where).
    4. email me the password for the zip file.

    why so many steps? your artwork is YOUR artwork. i want to keep it as much that way as possible! by using passworded zips, it limits the open availability of your work to me and you. you should only take part if you're happy to share the source artwork with me.

    the actual hangout event will happen on sunday at 8pm GMT (or thereabouts). it will start out private to make sure certain key people are in, and then will be made public. i'll make sure it's streamed on youtube as well so more people can watch. it may end up being a twitch stream instead, depending on how easy it is for people to ask questions and stuff. i'll decide that before the event however so make sure you check here for updates.

    a final word: this is still a beta test. this is a way to broaden the amount of work used in the test and see the capabilities and limitations of the software. notes will be made during thr course of the event on things that could be improved upon. it's also likely that your work will be critiqued by members of the community as this is shown live. and of course, feel free to let me know any preferences in how you want it displayed.

    so yeah....

    email me if you want in!


    deadline for this is midnight tonight, california time (PST?). any files not submitted by then won't be included.
  • Elyaradine
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    Elyaradine polycounter lvl 11
    I don't think it's been mentioned before, but perhaps you'd consider opening up pre-orders, and allowing those who pre-order in on the private beta fun? ;)
  • RogelioD
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    RogelioD polycounter lvl 12
    ^ What he said xD

    I just wanna get my hands on this so bad!!!!
  • stefanobernardi
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    stefanobernardi polycounter lvl 8
    Thanks for all the info about substances, I'll look forward to learn something about it soon as I would really like to make some complex shader with tileable details.

    So, I was testing the skin shader on the face of this character, attached you can find the result... :(

    I'm on a 4 years old MacBookPro with a NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT.

    Would be nice to have a hotkey to center the viewport (was it F in TB1?).

    Also, when I duplicate a shader, I expect that it keeps all the texture linking.

    Lights look a bit weird at the moment, they disappear if I move the camera too close; it's also impossible to understand their orientation, so with directional and spotlights it's pretty frustrating; point light needs a graphic feedback when editing their radius., just like in TB1.

    Probably a bug: pressing cmd+F to go fullscreen sometimes makes the application to disappear completely: it is still running, but I can't find any way to display it again.
  • EarthQuake
  • Bek
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    Bek interpolator
    hm, guess you didn't have time for everything?

    Still, thanks for organising this Lee, good to see more of toolbag 2. If only you were in a more sensible timezone :D
  • SA_22
    that skin shader..... lighting..... so many new goodies!

    did i mention that i'm a professional realtime artists toolkit beta tester....... just saying! :poly142::poly122::poly124::poly105::D!

    Hint Hint!
  • radiancef0rge
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    radiancef0rge ngon master
    OldHouse_12.jpg
    some updates.

    Ran into a few workflow things regarding glass nothing that hasnt been stated before. How did you guys get it to work on the workbench scene?
  • ceebee
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    ceebee polycounter lvl 14
    Man I'd love to get my hands on this beta. Glad to see people posting art from it, can't wait to play with the new skin shader and local reflections.
  • EarthQuake
    Thanks for all the info about substances, I'll look forward to learn something about it soon as I would really like to make some complex shader with tileable details.

    So, I was testing the skin shader on the face of this character, attached you can find the result... :(

    I'm on a 4 years old MacBookPro with a NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT.

    Would be nice to have a hotkey to center the viewport (was it F in TB1?).

    Also, when I duplicate a shader, I expect that it keeps all the texture linking.

    Lights look a bit weird at the moment, they disappear if I move the camera too close; it's also impossible to understand their orientation, so with directional and spotlights it's pretty frustrating; point light needs a graphic feedback when editing their radius., just like in TB1.

    Probably a bug: pressing cmd+F to go fullscreen sometimes makes the application to disappear completely: it is still running, but I can't find any way to display it again.

    Thanks for the feedback! Unfortunately the skin shader does not appear to work at all on Mac with the build that you guys have. This should be fixed with the next update.

    TB2 is very hard on your video card, so a 9600M is definitely on the bottom end of what will be supported. If you have a desktop/workstation with a beefier card I would suggest trying it out there.
  • EarthQuake
    OldHouse_12.jpg
    some updates.

    Ran into a few workflow things regarding glass nothing that hasnt been stated before. How did you guys get it to work on the workbench scene?

    This is looking really great!

    For the glass in the workbench scene I actually used the dithered transparency. Thats totally not what its meant for, but it sort of works if you have enough sampling. I maxed out the sampling and rendered at 3840x2160 and then sized down to 1080P for those shots.

    Refraction (when it gets added sometime in the future) will probably be what you want to use for glass.
  • imb3nt
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    imb3nt polycounter lvl 14
    Oh man. :) I don't think I've been this excited for a while. All of the improvements look phenomenal and the ability to get some high quality renders for high poly models is invaluable.

    Keep up the great work and I'll do my best to wait patiently for the release.
  • LRoy
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    LRoy polycounter lvl 10
    When you guys are saying you're bringing in your highpoly, how high do you mean?
  • EarthQuake
    LRoy wrote: »
    When you guys are saying you're bringing in your highpoly, how high do you mean?

    TB2 has a couple features that make it really easy to load in highpoly meshes:
    1. OBJ loader is now super fast and supports extremely dense meshes (millions of triangles), a 5million tris mesh takes only a second or two to load on my machine.
    2. Meshes no longer require uvs
    3. The material system can be set up entirely without texture maps, so you can create simple materials for meshes that do not have uvs with numeric/constant color values.
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    i've loaded 35mil so far =]
  • Froyok
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    Froyok greentooth
    EarthQuake wrote: »
    TB2 has a couple features that make it really easy to load in highpoly meshes:
    1. OBJ loader is now super fast and supports extremely dense meshes (millions of triangles), a 5million tris mesh takes only a second or two to load on my machine.
    2. Meshes no longer require uvs
    3. The material system can be set up entirely without texture maps, so you can create simple materials for meshes that do not have uvs with numeric/constant color values.
    You don't support vertex colors then ? For mesh from zBrush it would be great to be able to use the PolyPaint as a diffuse slot.
  • Nosslak
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    Nosslak polycounter lvl 12
    Do TB2 support boxmapping/tri-planar mapping for textures? I've just recently started using Keyshot and that's what they use to apply textures when rendering materials such as wood without forcing the user to UV-unwrap the mesh. It would be great to be able to do this in TB2 as well, as Keyshot is a bit slow for my taste (maybe I just need a beefier CPU). Maybe box-mapping could be the default option if a mesh is detected that have no UV-coordinates.

    I'm not part of the beta so maybe this is already implemented.
  • MrNinjutsu
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    MrNinjutsu greentooth
    i've loaded 35mil so far =]

    dollar dollar bill, yo.

    Marmoset 2 looks insane. I want it now :D
  • radiancef0rge
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    radiancef0rge ngon master
    Froyok wrote: »
    You don't support vertex colors then ? For mesh from zBrush it would be great to be able to use the PolyPaint as a diffuse slot.

    I believe the answer is "not yet" based on previous responses
  • sacrum
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    sacrum polycounter lvl 11
    On the mac side it would be nice to hold command instead of control to move around.
  • melviso
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    melviso polycounter lvl 10
    Nice renders guys,I wanted to ask can one render animations from marmoset toolbag or u have to use a screen capture device.
  • Krot_Art
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    Krot_Art polycounter lvl 7
    guys
    do you planing to add a support for some particle effects in Marmoset Toolbag 2 ?
    or in the future ?
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