Home 3D Art Showcase & Critiques

Next Gen Characters Progress Thread II

1
After the other topic got derailed.

I decided to make a new one with some work


DudleyFixed.png


TrickaFingaz3D.png

Replies

  • MEGALOS
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    MEGALOS polycounter lvl 9
    Woow awesome stuff dude!! I can really see the next gen quality in it :) Keep up the good work!!
  • ES_139
  • Cooljay
    ES_139 wrote: »
    you derailed it.

    I am at fault myself too yes.
  • ES_139
    ok are you approaching making a thread with a different goal in mind?
    in other words do you want critiques of your work this time or is this just a showcase thread again?
  • Cooljay
    ES_139 wrote: »
    ok are you approaching making a thread with a different goal in mind?
    in other words do you want critiques of your work this time or is this just a showcase thread again?

    I am willing to take critiques overall.
  • sltrOlsson
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    sltrOlsson polycounter lvl 14
    So, what are your goals? What do you want to achive?

    Show us your texture, show us your wireframe so that we can give you critique on the models :)
  • odium
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    odium polycounter lvl 18
    I'm not sure what I'm looking at here, all I know is my penis bled a little bit.
  • Cooljay
  • MadnessImport
    Why so many edge loops on the neck?
  • Cooljay
    Why so many edge loops on the neck?

    Poly Reduce on a Zbrush Model

    Will be fixing that later
  • ES_139
    Im no character artist and I'm still uncertain if your for real this time or whether your going to have a tantrum and tell me that the conversation is over but here is my last attempt to help you dude.

    I'm guessing that is supposed to be Dudley from ssf4/thrid strike? Just take a step back and look at what your doing, try to define your forms more. Start at a low subdivison and really get all the detail you can out of that level before dividing it again.

    Take a look at some drawing and anatomy books to help you define the features of the face better, obviously we all know that the flesh sits on the skull of the subject so try to take in and understand how that flesh fills in the areas of the skull that are not bone to make up the face. Nose and ears are quite tricky as they are just flesh so focus on that. Use reference constantly, if you haven't got dual monitors set up I would highly recommend doing so even if the second monitor is pretty poor so that you can constantly check your reference. Failing that get some anatomy books my favourites being anything by Loomis, Hoagarth or Bridgeman but there are many others. I learnt a lot from 'Dynamic figure drawing' just by making sketches from that book my understanding of how the face is put together increased 10 fold.

    Think about presentation when you put these images up to be seen by others, learn how to make decent renders of your mesh or how to use real-time shaders this will show of the areas you have detailed and in turn help others critique them you then might get some great advice.

    most importantly I would say listen to peoples critiques on here, there are guys/gals on here that do this for a living. you wouldn't try to do your own plumbing, call the plumber out to have a look at what a good job you have done then if he said you had done it wrong tell him that the conversation is over and show him the door would you? I know its hard to hear sometimes but just take a deep breath before you make any rash responses.

    The second image looks like you just took the smooth brush to the zbrush head model?
  • Cooljay
    ES_139 wrote: »
    Im no character artist and I'm still uncertain if your for real this time or whether your going to have a tantrum and tell me that the conversation is over but here is my last attempt to help you dude.

    I'm guessing that is supposed to be Dudley from ssf4/thrid strike? Just take a step back and look at what your doing, try to define your forms more. Start at a low subdivison and really get all the detail you can out of that level before dividing it again.

    Take a look at some drawing and anatomy books to help you define the features of the face better, obviously we all know that the flesh sits on the skull of the subject so try to take in and understand how that flesh fills in the areas of the skull that are not bone to make up the face. Nose and ears are quite tricky as they are just flesh so focus on that. Use reference constantly, if you haven't got dual monitors set up I would highly recommend doing so even if the second monitor is pretty poor so that you can constantly check your reference. Failing that get some anatomy books my favourites being anything by Loomis, Hoagarth or Bridgeman but there are many others. I learnt a lot from 'Dynamic figure drawing' just by making sketches from that book my understanding of how the face is put together increased 10 fold.

    Think about presentation when you put these images up to be seen by others, learn how to make decent renders of your mesh or how to use real-time shaders this will show of the areas you have detailed and in turn help others critique them you then might get some great advice.

    most importantly I would say listen to peoples critiques on here, there are guys/gals on here that do this for a living. you wouldn't try to do your own plumbing, call the plumber out to have a look at what a good job you have done then if he said you had done it wrong tell him that the conversation is over and show him the door would you? I know its hard to hear sometimes but just take a deep breath before you make any rash responses.

    The second image looks like you just took the smooth brush to the zbrush head model?

    I'd love to get a second monitor, but I'm always broke. I couldn't afford one anytime soon. Work barely gets me enough just for rent as it is.

    I've been always using anatomy books every chance I can and reference too. Even for this type of work. Cross-Checking the likeness as much as possible. I love being on model to a concept.
  • Clark Coots
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    Clark Coots polycounter lvl 12
    here is some good reference for next gen head sculpts and full body characters. study them well, and use the wireframes as reference. your wires should be clean and evenly spaced for the face.
    http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?77667-My-work-from-Assassin-s-creed-2-%29


    i big problem i see, is you do not have a center edgeloop on your head models and you've broken the symmetry. make the head symmetrical, to do so you need a center line. you can add unique detail in your normal map and textures. but keep the model symmetrical for now unless you have a deformed zombie face or something where you need to break symmetry.
  • Cooljay
    coots7 wrote: »
    here is some good reference for next gen head sculpts and full body characters. study them well, and use the wireframes as reference. your wires should be clean and evenly spaced for the face.
    http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?77667-My-work-from-Assassin-s-creed-2-%29


    i big problem i see, is you do not have a center edgeloop on your head models and you've broken the symmetry. make the head symmetrical, to do so you need a center line. you can add unique detail in your normal map and textures. but keep the model symmetrical for now unless you have a deformed zombie face or something where you need to break symmetry.


    What exactly happens when the symmetry is broken ? Does it affect blend shape or morph targets ?
  • Clark Coots
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    Clark Coots polycounter lvl 12
    well if properly rigged no it doesnt affect anything. it just creates more work for not only you but everyone down the pipeline. riggers will have to skin weight each side of the face separately, build unique bones for each side if they aren't just doing blend shapes. Creating blend shapes is more work because you can't use symmetry to sculpt equal expressions on each side. also when laying out your UVs you cant use symmetry if you needed to have overlapping UVS (it's next gen so you don't) but it's still helpful to have symmetrical UVs it's just cleaner. you're making more work for yourself by retopologizing a 100% of a sculpt rather than half of it. If you had to do 20 faces like the link I posted, everything would take twice as long for retopo, UV selection, rigging. so it's not a good habit to get into especially for game design where a lot of times they use the same rig for characters thus the characters have to have similar proportions and definitely symmetrical. but to answer your question it wont affect blend shapes BUT it will slow the entire pipeline down!!
  • Cooljay
    coots7 wrote: »
    well if properly rigged no it doesnt affect anything. it just creates more work for not only you but everyone down the pipeline. riggers will have to skin weight each side of the face separately, build unique bones for each side if they aren't just doing blend shapes. Creating blend shapes is more work because you can't use symmetry to sculpt equal expressions on each side. also when laying out your UVs you cant use symmetry if you needed to have overlapping UVS (it's next gen so you don't) but it's still helpful to have symmetrical UVs it's just cleaner. you're making more work for yourself by retopologizing a 100% of a sculpt rather than half of it. If you had to do 20 faces like the link I posted, everything would take twice as long for retopo, UV selection, rigging. so it's not a good habit to get into especially for game design where a lot of times they use the same rig for characters thus the characters have to have similar proportions and definitely symmetrical. but to answer your question it wont affect blend shapes BUT it will slow the entire pipeline down!!

    This explains a lot for me the importance of it. If it's needed for speed character design and sharing rigs then I should be more wise to be symmetrical. Things taking twice as long wouldn't be a good thing after all. Thanks for your informative explanation of how some of the work pipeline is like.
  • Clark Coots
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    Clark Coots polycounter lvl 12
    also regarding symmetry, look at your face in the mirror. it's pretty symmetrical right? sure you might have a freckle on one side, or a scar on chin from when you were a kid (me) but that stuff can be taken care of in our normal map, the main shape all the major facial features are pretty symmetrical. Now look around your house/apartment. The couch, kitchen sink, lamp, the monitor you're staring at, chair you're sitting in. How many of these objects are symmetrical? all of them. there might be small unique details, like an on button on your monitor on one side, but overall it's symmetrical. So good modeling practice is to model symmetrically then if needed add small details here and there or scars on the face or whatever.

    EDIT: i see you responded above. but ^thats just additional reasons to use symmetry even if you're just modeling and not going to rig. and you're welcome! good luck
  • ES_139
    If you didnt know to use symetry you really need to go back to basics and spend a good few days just watching tutorials.

    take a look at some of these:
    http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com
  • ParoXum
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    ParoXum polycounter lvl 9
    Cooljay are you two faced? I need to know why one day you completely shit on people and the other you thank them for their feedback before I even think of giving you feedback again.
  • Cooljay
    ES_139 wrote: »
    If you didnt know to use symetry you really need to go back to basics and spend a good few days just watching tutorials.

    take a look at some of these:
    http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com

    I'm familiar with symmetry. Just need to get used to it in Zbrush.
  • Boyso
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    Boyso polycounter lvl 7
    I'd say, stop skipping steps. Do every step one at a time and complete it.

    Make a basemesh : Show. We'll tell you what to improve.
    Then bring it in Zbrush : Show.
    Then Retopo : Show.
    Then texture : Show.

    It's hard to help you (if you really want help) if you show us the "finished" product.
  • Cooljay
    Boyso wrote: »
    I'd say, stop skipping steps. Do every step one at a time and complete it.

    Make a basemesh : Show. We'll tell you what to improve.
    Then bring it in Zbrush : Show.
    Then Retopo : Show.
    Then texture : Show.

    It's hard to help you (if you really want help) if you show us the "finished" product.

    Sounds like a fair deal to me
  • Boyso
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    Boyso polycounter lvl 7
    Good. Because if the foundation of your project (read : the basemesh) is wrong, it cannot get better with Zbrush. It'll only drag you down.
  • MeintevdS
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    MeintevdS keyframe
    Out of curiosity, why use poly reduction on your head model? From what I see of your render and wires all it does for you is messing your geometry up, like a boss.

    And if you're gonna render your models you might wanna spend at least some time on your materials / lighting and remove the textures. They add nothing to the model/render, if at all I'd say they take away from it.

    As for the mesh, it's pointless to give you tips on how to improve it since the poly reduction butchered it. If you want to make a low poly, use topogun or zbrush or whatever tool you want to model the lowpoly on top of the highpoly.

    Also +1 for the new attitude, keep it up!
  • dannedadon
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    dannedadon polycounter lvl 11
    My best advise for you is stop trying to pump out stuff fast. It works great if you know what you're doing and you have a good workflow. But at your level you really need to go back to the fundamentals and stay there for a while until you get it.

    Tons of other people have said it before, I dont get why you wont listen if you are serious with trying to get better? That is honestly the best way of getting better. Because right now you are making the same mistakes over and over again and keep saying that you know whats wrong and you are going to fix it on your next project.

    If you want to get better at modelling a low poly, check out the stuff in the mobile gaming thread and learn how they do things with as few polys as possible. Forget texturing and normalmaps until you have a solid wireframe.

    If you want to practice texturing, download some of the free meshes here on polycount and just try to texture them, talanted people have already done the set up so you have a good base and you can focus on just improving a certain area.

    Basically, right now you are all over the place and its resulting in stuff thats not good to be honest.
  • FruitBomb
  • satanarchist
    Ignore all the haters :D , just keep doing what you doing. Keep it up.
  • MainManiac
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    MainManiac polycounter lvl 11
    Us trying to help you doesn't mean its derailed.
  • MainManiac
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    MainManiac polycounter lvl 11
    Here it is again. Read it more.



    I really feel sorry for you cooljay. The motivation and determination is there but your work falls far below even the most basic lines, yet you're still confident.

    Start asking questions please, if you see something you like and wonder how they did that don't try and recreate it (and cut corners) and say what it is, make it right and if you can't ask the creator how they did so and so. Im really concerned as to why someone like you can't do decent stuff with your ability to usually listen to criticism and actually take advice from people. You absorb knowledge very fast and never give up, which is great, but you really need to try and apply and push yourself.

    When I first came here my work was pretty much a joke, and I always saw others' work and I would say "I wish I could do that", and then one day I got the balls to ask some of these amazing artists how they do stuff, and I was surprised they answered. Ever since I ask everyone all about stuff to try and grow and develop my workflow more!

    A good example is with your characters, you're so determined and you try and bring out every detail and get the character done, which is good, but Im baffled by your ability to proceed in a project when your wireframes are far from basic.


    You seem very hopeful of the future and you're starting your portfolio and I would like to stop you before you go too far and tell you to get your act together before you get crushed by employers.

    Im really not trying to be harsh, but no one else will say it, but your work is very poor. To put it blatantly its the quality I see when people try 3d and have never done it, and then usually go back to their usual hobby.

    Its really something with you, most people will have problems with criticism, attention to detail, motivation, or confidence and it will reflect in their work. But you have all of these! Theres no reason for this Cooljay!

    Keep going and try to recreate things from games/other (good) artists, and don't settle for anything that doesnt look decent, if you have a question PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ASK US, don't let a problem throw the quality of your work in the ground. You've built a hefty reputation here as the guy that when you post we sigh, any progression from you will be noticed greatly. So keep going, make it your soul goal to impress us!

    Listen to aces suggestion, I think watching other artists will really help you (how did the blender character tut on cgtuts not though?)

    I've talked to you a bit here and there and I've helped you, but I had to say this



    As I said before. I seriously want to sit behind you while you work and wonder what goes through your mind when you're trying to make something.
  • Cooljay
    Just some low poly base meshes for Tricka Fingaz. The ex gang leader who was mutinied by his own men in some point in his life. Nowadays he works as a gun for hire to make some money on the side, and work for the vigilante protagonist to get back at some of his old crew responsible.

    For his outfit I want to give him a more casual and non stereotyped appeal, but give him a little rawness in it to show he still knows how to work things

    There is also one high poly shown too.
    TrickaFingazBack.png

    TrickaFingazWIP.png

    TrickaShirt.png
  • makecg
    Looking cool cool jay
  • ES_139
    why so blobby?
    take a look at your clothes do they blob like that?? no.
  • odium
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    odium polycounter lvl 18
    The expression don't run before you can walk comes to mind, but this is more a case of don't run before you even leave the fanny... Seriously, its like you have some OCD and just have to get it done, quick quick quick, lets move onto the next step, over and over, without even taking the time needed.

    Just go back to square one. As in, go back to a blank canvas, nothing there. No model, no texture, nothing. Start over with the tips you have been given. And don't even think about doing a body/clothing until you get some of the basics down. Textures shouldn't even be looked at yet, its far, far too early for any of... That... To be textured.

    So far all you have is some REALLY basic blobby shapes with zero form, at all. And even though the BASE low poly isn't even 10% of what anybody should ever use, you are already taking it into zBrush or what have you and doing a high poly PLUS texture work...? Why? You will only need to re-do it later when it doesnt fit? Why make life complicated?

    I admire a guy for not giving up. But this isn't "trying to improve". This is touching the plate when its hot and then doing the same thing over and over.
  • Cooljay
    odium wrote: »

    Just go back to square one. As in, go back to a blank canvas, nothing there. No model, no texture, nothing.

    Why make life complicated?


    Do you want to hear a story here it's a really good one. About back to square one.

    I remember I tried to learn piano once, followed everything the instructor said word by word. Taking my time like you suggested,listening and following the instructor, but maybe too much time.

    For It had been 2-3 months, and I could play the chords of maple leaf rag great. Following every advice he gave. Despite all that has been said, and done it couldn't be played together (for me at least)


    You know what I am getting at here ? Not even the greatest instructors or advice can improve some to their level.

    Want to know why ? They had to play 100 bad songs to make 1 good song or make 100 bad models to 1 good model. Skill comes in time and work not just advice.
  • Boyso
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    Boyso polycounter lvl 7
    Boyso wrote: »
    I'd say, stop skipping steps. Do every step one at a time and complete it.

    Make a basemesh : Show. We'll tell you what to improve.
    Then bring it in Zbrush : Show.
    Then Retopo : Show.
    Then texture : Show.

    It's hard to help you (if you really want help) if you show us the "finished" product.
    Cooljay wrote: »
    Sounds like a fair deal to me

    I don't see your basemesh.

    I want to see your basemesh. Don't show us the rest, yet.
  • Cooljay
    Boyso wrote: »
    I don't see your basemesh.

    I want to see your basemesh. Don't show us the rest, yet.

    I thought the low poly is the base meshes ?
  • odium
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    odium polycounter lvl 18
    Cooljay wrote: »
    Do you want to hear a story here it's a really good one. About back to square one.

    I remember I tried to learn piano once, followed everything the instructor said word by word. Taking my time like you suggested,listening and following the instructor, but maybe too much time.

    For It had been 2-3 months, and I could play the chords of maple leaf rag great. Following every advice he gave. Despite all that has been said, and done it couldn't be played together (for me at least)


    You know what I am getting at here ? Not even the greatest instructors or advice can improve some to their level.

    Want to know why ? They had to play 100 bad songs to make 1 good song or make 100 bad models to 1 good model. Skill comes in time and work not just advice.

    The mottoe practise makes perfect always rings true, yes. But if you keep on doing the same mistkes, how will you ever learn? How will you progress? Its ok to take your time, and NOBODY learns things over night, least of all with something as complex as this.

    But if you keep trying to make tea with coffee, and you make that tea with coffee a hundred times... Its still coffee, you know? Sometimes, you just have to go right back to the start and work on the little things, like putting the tea bag in ;)
  • Cooljay
    odium wrote: »
    the mottoe practise makes perfect always rings true, yes. Sometimes, you just have to go right back to the start and work on the little things, like putting the tea bag in ;)

    I think you missed the point of the ancedote in the piano part

    If I know the order of the notes, but can't put the left and right hand together in harmony. It's a different problem altogether.

    So your coffee and tea ancedote is invalid or irrelevant

    I am pretty sure I know what is right and wrong doings in 3d modeling and art. I'd have to be legally blind and deaf not to know it. It's a rule, and I still have no choice but to follow it.

    I read everyone's posts word by word. I don't ignore it like they say I do.
  • Boyso
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    Boyso polycounter lvl 7
    I'm not a Character artist, so I guess one can come and say his view on this, but I'll answer, No.

    Your Zbrush basemesh needs to be only quad and equally sized quads (for starting, no need to go fancy with Dynamesh and stuff like that.)

    Your low poly can be different as it needs edge loops around the face features, shoulders, elbows, fingers, knees, etc.

    And your low can have triangles.
  • Cooljay
    Boyso wrote: »
    I'm not a Character artist, so I guess one can come and say his view on this, but I'll answer, No.

    Your Zbrush basemesh needs to be only quad and equally sized quads (for starting, no need to go fancy with Dynamesh and stuff like that.)

    Your low poly can be different as it needs edge loops around the face features, shoulders, elbows, fingers, knees, etc.

    And your low can have triangles.

    Alright thanks
  • KartoonHead
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    KartoonHead polycounter lvl 4
    FruitBomb wrote: »
    It%27s%20Time%20to%20stop%20posting.jpg?1312119162

    Yes, yes it is.
  • LRoy
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    LRoy polycounter lvl 10
    Cooljay wrote: »
    Want to know why ? They had to play 100 bad songs to make 1 good song or make 100 bad models to 1 good model. Skill comes in time and work not just advice.

    While I agree with this, what you're doing is just smashing the keys on the piano hoping to improve.
  • Cooljay
    LRoy wrote: »
    While I agree with this, what you're doing is just smashing the keys on the piano hoping to improve.

    progressr.png


    TrickaFingazWIP.png


    Yeah this is totally smashing the keys bidding right here
  • Boyso
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    Boyso polycounter lvl 7
    Yes it is.

    What you did there, I'm sorry to say, I could do better within 2 weeks of starting 3D.

    You are not even trying to get something that looks like an human.

    3D (and art in general) isn't just button-pressing. You have to invest time into it as well as passion.

    This is not good. If you find it good, than good for you, but you won't pay bills with that.

    Plus, you got your attitude back.

    I hope you have fun at least. :poly117:
  • Cooljay
    Boyso wrote: »
    Yes it is.

    What you did there, I'm sorry to say, I could do better within 2 weeks of starting 3D.

    You are not even trying to get something that looks like an human.

    3D (and art in general) isn't just button-pressing. You have to invest time into it as well as passion.

    This is not good. If you find it good, than good for you, but you won't pay bills with that.

    Plus, you got your attitude back.

    I hope you have fun at least. :poly117:

    I'm aware it's not just button-pressing. I still have a lot of time to invest on doing a lot of the detail in zbrush, texturing etc.

    Art is still hard work imo. I still have to figure things out, and nothing is ever considered finished until the end. I always find something that bothers me.
  • daphz
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    daphz polycounter lvl 13
    I agree with the others that you should show us every part of the process, starting with the basemesh; as well as post wireframe views. you ARE getting better man, but it's a long and slow process.
    Are you using reference? for anatomy and cloth and such? You really should be using reference for everything, unless you're somekind of anatomy and materials master.

    one more thing, you've got to be a little less defensive man.
  • Cooljay
    daphz wrote: »
    I agree with the others that you should show us every part of the process, starting with the basemesh; as well as post wireframe views. you ARE getting better man, but it's a long and slow process.
    Are you using reference? for anatomy and cloth and such? You really should be using reference for everything, unless you're somekind of anatomy and materials master.

    one more thing, you've got to be a little less defensive man.

    I'm using reference I look at all different types of baggy jeans, and long sleeve shirts. Looking where wrinkles would be. How the silhouette would work out for them. I still want to get it right to the character. I can't figure out everything just from my head.
  • Boyso
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    Boyso polycounter lvl 7
    No actually.

    You neeeeeed to do each step one at a time. You can't "improve" it in Zbrush.

    Do a freaking basemesh that has sense at first.

    Something like this : http://www.creativecrash.com/system/photos/000/081/473/81473/big/WireBaseMeshGlobal.jpg?1266088696

    Or take the Human Head in Zbrush, and tweak it. At least you have the base.

    What you're doing now is like trying to sculpt Zeus out of a Lego character.
  • Cooljay
    Boyso wrote: »
    No actually.

    You neeeeeed to do each step one at a time. You can't "improve" it in Zbrush.

    Do a freaking basemesh that has sense at first.

    Something like this : http://www.creativecrash.com/system/photos/000/081/473/81473/big/WireBaseMeshGlobal.jpg?1266088696

    Or take the Human Head in Zbrush, and tweak it. At least you have the base.

    What you're doing now is like trying to sculpt Zeus out of a Lego character.

    How is it sculpting out of a lego character ? All the silhoutte is there. What we're doing is baking the folds and the little things.

    Didn't I tell you this is the basemesh. It's all quads
  • Neox
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    Neox veteran polycounter
    i'd say try to concentrate on the very basic bodyform before you start tackling clothes and such, i mean its not about the muscleflow or something like that, right now you need to focus on proportions more than anything else, grab yourself an anatomybook and try to nail some of its proportions without wasting to much time on highresdetails, just block in the shapes with simple topology to get a feel of the human body, right now it appears very random, besides your chars having 4 limbs.
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