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3ds Max vs Maya

1
During my school education, I was taught to use Maya because I was told that this was the industry standard software for modeling for games. I recently started working at a small indie studio and one of the people who works there says that for games, modeling in 3ds max is what most companies are using. My question is does it really matter or would it be a good idea to learn max and start using that as my default program for making my models for games?

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  • MeshModeler
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    MeshModeler polycounter lvl 11
    if i had a nickel....
  • seth.
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    seth. polycounter lvl 14
    Max is a good striker, but Maya has the edge on the ground, look to leg kicks and who can control the clinch to decide this match up.

    Oh and back on topic: use whichever you feel an affinity with, it really makes no difference.
  • sprunghunt
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    sprunghunt polycounter
    The newest versions of max and maya have so many things in common that I'd be suprised if anyone can't easily switch between the two.
  • Jkuskows86
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    Jkuskows86 polycounter lvl 4
    I use Maya, sooo smooth. love it. To each their own though :). I jus made a website and need all the help I can get for the GDC this year. www.joshuakuskowski.com
  • unit187
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    unit187 polycounter lvl 9
    sprunghunt wrote: »
    The newest versions of max and maya have so many things in common that I'd be suprised if anyone can't easily switch between the two.

    I can't do that. Animating in Max is probably the worst CG experience I have ever had.
  • WarrenM
  • sheckee
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    sheckee polycounter lvl 9
    I've used both, I currently use 3DS Max at work. I see its benefit for Modeling; but I still prefer Maya. I just love how Maya works, I love the marquee menus. I really like that you can have the UV editor open on the other screen constantly. Max stupidly never remembers where I place the UV Editor, and I'm forever having to turn 'Normalize' off, which is dumb. There's a long list of complaints I make every day though.

    To the point, I would say use what you prefer. Because the other package can be learned very easily if need be. I learned it on the job in a matter of weeks.
  • iniside
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    iniside polycounter lvl 6
    Both are crap. Use Blender or modo.

    Thank me later.
  • thomasp
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    thomasp hero character
    sheckee wrote: »
    Max stupidly never remembers where I place the UV Editor, and I'm forever having to turn 'Normalize' off, which is dumb.

    set all the preferences and window position as you like, then exit the unwrap window and go to where your max preferences live and write protect the .ini file for uvw unwrap. done! :)


    on topic: what you get told in school whatever is the standard is bollocks - schools decide on a software to base their courses on. that decision is made for whatever reason - experience/preference of the teaching staff, autodesk discount, connection with some local game studio, general job prospects.
  • Torch
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    Torch interpolator
    iniside wrote: »
    Both are crap. Use Blender or modo.

    Thank me later.

    +1
  • aajohnny
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    aajohnny polycounter lvl 13
    People say "Max/Maya is crap" it may be crap for you but maybe not for others... it's just personal preference. Skill transfers regardless of what software you use, it's just a matter of getting used to the software. Just use what feels what's most comfortable to you.
  • iniside
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    iniside polycounter lvl 6
    I say it this way. If something cost 4k dollars, and offer not more than free software... or other sofware for 1/4 of that price. It's crap.

    I'm sorry, but Autodesk did not made any progress with Max or maya since I can remember, and I no longer will use overpriced software that is not fit for purpose for that price.
  • Torch
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    Torch interpolator
    Actually, maybe I was a bit hasty with that +1, am a Maya user here and although I wish the modeling tools were improved, it still has a very good toolset. Max from what I can tell also has an awesome modeling toolset, would be nice to get more of those features in Maya.

    Had a play around with Blender after some recommendation and its very cool but not sure if its worth changing for, its always a pain to learn a new app when you've been comfortable with one for a long time XO Although its nice that if needed you wouldn't have to go to any external apps for painting/retopology as it seems Blender can handle those pretty well.
  • McGreed
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    McGreed polycounter lvl 15
    I mentioned it before, but I really wish that Autodesk didn't buy up XSI, I really liked that program and I came from using Max before that. Im back to Max, more because that was what they were using where I used to work, but from what I heard, XSI didnt really get any advantage from it and all the good ideas and updates that they used to throw into it slowed down, if not down right stopped, and it looks like all the focus was on Autodesk and Maya. Which is a shame.
  • JacqueChoi
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    JacqueChoi polycounter
    If you're trying to break into the industry, you're doing a HUGE disservice to yourself not knowing both Max and Maya.

    Blender is good if you want to stick to doing indie games, but not many AAA studios actually use it. Modo is great if you're a freelance artist, but once again, not many studios in North America (that I know of) actually use it.



    And yes, there are plenty of times when junior applicants have been turned away for not knowing a specific program.
  • Fwap
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    Fwap polycounter lvl 13
    I use both, Max at home Maya at school.
    Already decided that when i finish school unless i can help it, to never use Maya again.
    I'm the guy in the corner screaming "fucking Maya!!."
    More so of my own incompetence with the program than anything else.

    But in all honesty i really do believe the program thats right for you, is the one you love and feel comfortable in, i mean if i tried reaaaaaaaaaaally hard, i could get as proficient at Maya as i am at Max, and figure out all the workflows how i like them now.

    And if i started with Maya then Max i'd be singing a different tune.
  • Nox
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    Nox polycounter lvl 5
    I used to work, but from what I heard, XSI didnt really get any advantage from it and all the good ideas and updates that they used to throw into it slowed down, if not down right stopped
    XSI is still better overall than Maya/Max/Modo, even without updates.
  • Dataday
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    Dataday polycounter lvl 8
    I'm happily a Modo convert, dont be surprised to start seeing this software take off in the long run. Its always good to have some proficiency in a number of apps (for employment purposes), but ultimately you should stick with the software that is the most empowering.

    Aside from a few features, I really have no interest in using max or maya after picking up Modo. Try it, just know how to turn off a few annoying default settings.
  • iniside
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    iniside polycounter lvl 6
    Dataday wrote: »
    I'm happily a Modo convert, dont be surprised to start seeing this software take off in the long run. Its always good to have some proficiency in a number of apps (for employment purposes), but ultimately you should stick with the software that is the most empowering.

    Aside from a few features, I really have no interest in using max or maya after picking up Modo. Try it, just know how to turn off a few annoying default settings.

    +1. Only thing I'm really missing from max is easy way to procedurally generate stones.
    But I solved this problem with procedrually generating stones in zbrush.

    It still have it's issues, like dreaded fbx support, but other than that modo
    have everything you might need for modeling.
    And even some things for animation and rigging (skin binding in modo, is just mind blow it is so easy and so accurate to do it automatically).

    I'm 100% sure it will take over in game industry over maya and max.
  • Torch
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    Torch interpolator
    Don't think that's going to happen. You may have more studios adopting Modo in their pipeline in the future, but its not going to replace Max/Maya - the apps are way too widespread and have too large a userbase. Besides I tried Modo a few times and couldn't really get to grips with the UI, seemed kinda clunky.

    ...aaaaaaand, fight
  • WarrenM
    iniside wrote: »
    I say it this way. If something cost 4k dollars, and offer not more than free software... or other sofware for 1/4 of that price. It's crap.

    I'm sorry, but Autodesk did not made any progress with Max or maya since I can remember, and I no longer will use overpriced software that is not fit for purpose for that price.
    Calling Max "crap" is still disingenuous. Top shelf artists use it every day and produce amazing models. It's clearly not "crap".
  • stabbington
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    stabbington polycounter lvl 10
    It seems like it's still too much hassle for a lot of studios to use programs other than Max and Maya. I tried hiring for a large Softimage project last year (again, due to an entrenched pipeline) and it was next to impossible to get all the required staff. Nearly every applicant for modelers, animators, and especially TD's, were Maya users. I don't think we had a single TD/TA apply that wasn't a Maya user.

    Even longer ago I worked somewhere that used a very specialised animation program, and had someone who was an occasional dev for said program in-house as the TD. Every pipeline tool and plugin went through him but when he suddenly upped and left there was literally nobody that could replace him, nor anyone that even wanted to use the program - all the animators we had hired were Maya animators who had never enjoyed working in it and always questioned why we weren't just using Maya (cost, as far as I know). So we had to switch to one of the more well known packages at huge expense of money and time revising the entire pipeline.

    It's frustrating because there's programs that have shown a lot of capability (and exceeded in many cases) the modeling or animation aspects of Max or Maya, but when the bulk of the job force and the bulk of the studios all use the same thing, there's not much incentive and too much risk on either side to switch up. For those new to 3d or without much of a CV it doesn't seem like a great bet to spend much time on a program that only has a miniscule percentage of use throughout the industry.
  • Fomori
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    Fomori polycounter lvl 12
    I recently started working at a small indie studio and one of the people who works there says that for games, modeling in 3ds max is what most companies are using.

    Although at the moment that sounds about right, things might change now with Maya LT. For the smaller indies the greatly reduced price could swing them to Maya LT. But as people are saying, both packages are so similar now, it shouldn't be too hard to learn one after the other. Plenty of online resources for that.
  • Saf
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    Saf polycounter lvl 11
    The basics are the same everywhere. Forget the Max if you are already working in Maya. Work in Maya until Modo or Blender become mainstream. :poly142:
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    I spent years learning on Maya, every job I've had or applied for uses Max, that's just the way the universe works. Being fairly proficient in Maya, switching to Max was super easy.

    The Max modifier stack is lovely though, I'd really miss that in any other 3D application.
  • slipsius
    F^@# MAX!!!!!!

    Sincerely,

    Every Animator Ever.
  • iniside
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    iniside polycounter lvl 6
    WarrenM wrote: »
    Calling Max "crap" is still disingenuous. Top shelf artists use it every day and produce amazing models. It's clearly not "crap".

    Well I say what I believe in. I used max for longest time, that is not a reason to praise it. Oh well if Autodesk would cut price to 700$, and remove most of the bloat from max.. I would consider it again.

    Tha being said, I can model using max, maya or modo. modo is quite different from both max na maya, but once I overcome differences (took me one day of really sit down and try), I don't want to get back to autodesk. Though I probably will have sooner or later ;/.

    To sum up. The only thing that matter about software, is that you should be able to adapt as quickly as possible.
  • Mark Dygert
    iniside wrote: »
    To sum up. The only thing that matter about software, is that you should be able to adapt as quickly as possible.
    "I adapt quickly" normally loses to "I use this every day".
    slipsius wrote: »
    F^@# MAX!!!!!!

    Sincerely,

    Every Animator Ever.
    Hahaha, it's funny because its true.

    I like max for modeling, the modifier stack, baking, materials, viewport rendering, the particle editor, renderable splines, tools like sweep and pro-booleans, pro-optimizer, skinning tools, skinwrap and even SOME rigging/scripting. I even like the command panel and most of the UI...

    I can't stand it's schizophrenic attempt at animation, it's messed up curve editor or the dip sh!t uv editor that needs a few trips to the woodshed.

    I've used max more than I've ever used Maya and if I had to pick one generalized tool it would be max but unfortunately I mostly animate and it's torture. Animating in max is like paying to be punched in the nuts. Maya isn't some Utopian dreamland but it's less of a pain.
  • Dataday
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    Dataday polycounter lvl 8
    Torch wrote: »
    I tried Modo a few times and couldn't really get to grips with the UI, seemed kinda clunky.

    ...aaaaaaand, fight

    I used to feel that way too, once you get used to modo though, and realize what parts you need to change to fit your style, its pretty nice and far from being clunky. To me, Max is clunky, Maya is direct, and modo is well a mixture of streamlined and designed specifically to be approached a certain way. Like Blender, you can pretty much make any combo of windows you want.

    The hardest part is just getting over that initial learning curve. Some changes to get rid of the annoyances or learn to get used to them, and everything ends up being within reach fairly quickly.
  • MDiamond
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    MDiamond polycounter lvl 10
    I don't have a favorite program. I find them all garbage and exceptional in different areas. I use Modo, Max and Maya with ease, but for personal projects I tend to not use a program for specific tasks(I hate UV'ing in Max and avoid modelling in Maya like the plague).

    That being said, Autodesk's updates have been disappoint for some time, while Modo just keeps getting better and better, so I have been more optimistic for The Foundry's success. But since Autodesk is the "standard", I would say learn both.
  • RobeOmega
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    RobeOmega polycounter lvl 10
    I have learnt Blender I regret it because in my opinion I like the UI and now that I am used to it I am trying to learn max and finding it very hard because I can just cheap back to Blender to model stuff and will just get frustrated with Max at many points.
    I have what I consider to be a good CPU however max takes 30 sec for me to load or longer. I have also tried beginner tutorials and run into random problems not described in the tutorial :(

    On a random note any one know any amazing new to 3ds Max tutorials?

    Sorry for bad punctuation needed to type this fast
  • .Wiki
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    .Wiki polycounter lvl 8
    I started with 3dsmax end of 2009. Thought its the best program available and then switched to softimage because of an internship and dont want to switch back because its much more intuitive.
    Sometimes I work with maya on some projects but I like softimage more because of its modeling tools, ICE, rigging and the arnold renderer (yes its available for maya too but we use arnold for softimage).
  • Tobbo
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    Tobbo polycounter lvl 11
    Robeomega, you should consider giving Maya a try. I have found the transition from Blender to Maya to be less of a headache.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    Robeomega wrote: »
    On a random note any one know any amazing new to 3ds Max tutorials?

    I used the 3D Buzz intro to max tutorials, not sure if they've changed or updated them since I watched them 7 years ago.

    Don't feel bad, Blender seems pretty hard to figure out coming from the other direction!
  • RobeOmega
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    RobeOmega polycounter lvl 10
    Hmm I also have the Maya to max tutorial series so I may learn maya to learn max :D
  • Gusti
    Lightwave 3D!

    oh.. well not used it since like version 2.x something but .. LIGHTWAVE!
    it was doing cool things when max was still in DOS form ala 3D Studio 4 :)

    But as has been said, if you are planing on getting into the industry as it is now, the safest bet is Max, with side knowledge of Maya, since most have their pipelines set up for those packages.
  • iconoplast
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    iconoplast polycounter lvl 13
    The Max modifier stack is lovely though, I'd really miss that in any other 3D application.
    That's always been my problem. I learned Max first, and losing that when you were metaphorically weaned on it is like ripping a few fingers off.
  • SaboR1996
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    SaboR1996 polycounter lvl 8
    Max has a lot of problems. I mean. A LOT.
    I experiment with a lot of types of new modelling, sub-d, environmental, modular etc. and I just can't do it because something always gets in my way, wherever it being my ctrl-z stops working, stuff randomly collapsing, random crashes when I have plenty of ram dedicated to max etc.

    Still doesn't stop me using max. But I won't animate it in. no way in hell, although MassFX is a nifty little feature to mess about with!
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    I use Max 2009, pretty much never have any problems
  • onionhead_o
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    onionhead_o polycounter lvl 16
    I always hear people saying 3dsmax is lacking in animation department, but I have yet to know why. Im curious as I have only used 3dsmax for modeling, only did animation with it while i was in school and thats it. Been using Maya professionally ever since.
  • StephenVyas
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    StephenVyas polycounter lvl 18
    I like animating in max *shrug*
  • Lotos
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    Lotos polycounter lvl 4
    Maya, in my experience has been more of an animator's tool, and Max being a solid modeling tool that's more straightforward in its presentation than Maya. But from every art lead I ask, the most important thing is just modeling in general. Know your edgeloops, polycounts, and model around the model versus on top of it and you'll be able to do what you need to. I've heard Blender is on the rise, with it being free and all, so just choose the program your most comfortable with, and once you feel like you got a solid handle on it, you should familiarize yourself with the next one. Most seem to be using Maya, from Naughty Dog to Square Enix. But you should be comfortable to move from one to the other.
  • SurlyBird
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    SurlyBird polycounter lvl 13
    To the OP: Learn both Max and Maya and learn other tools and keep learning and learning. The learning never stops. Maya probably has the brighter future, IM0, but there will continue to be all-Max studios or Max-specific jobs. It makes sense to be good in both tools, maybe great if you can swing it. Neither tool is Nirvana - but then no tool is, right?

    I like Modo a lot (been using it since 2008 ) but I'm not overly-optimistic about it becoming dominant in the games industry mainly because of entrenched pipelines and tools that show no signs of going away any time soon. Game and film companies invest tremendous amounts of money and manpower into their pipelines and will stay with them as long they can or until it no longer is in their best interests to do so (either because of cost or because of some big sea change). As has been mentioned, most pros use one or the other or a combination of the two. Probably smart to use what the pros use. Why swim upstream?

    Indies use... whatever works. I dig Blender and think it's a great all-around tool. I like that it's open-source and has this great evolutionary DNA that means it is rapidly changing and growing. I would recommend Blender to anyone, including the seasoned pro or the neophyte. But I would also stress the need to know Max and Maya. Keep your options open and don't give a potential or current employer reasons to not hire you or keep you on a project.

    My name is SurlyBird and I approve this message.
  • cptSwing
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    cptSwing polycounter lvl 11
    iconoplast wrote: »
    That's always been my problem. I learned Max first, and losing that when you were metaphorically weaned on it is like ripping a few fingers off.


    Yeah. Loss of the modifier stack is what keeps me from switching to say, modo, in earnest. Or from switching back to XSI, the program I started with back in the day.
  • WarrenM
    Seriously, you get used to not having the modifier stack. It's not that big of a deal.
  • joebount
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    joebount polycounter lvl 12
    Well, you can drive a car without electronic, can't you ?
  • Nox
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    Nox polycounter lvl 5
    Or from switching back to XSI, the program I started with back in the day.
    What do you mean? XSI's stack can operate very similar to Max one, it just lacks some modifiers (symmetry for example).
    Seriously, you get used to not having the modifier stack. It's not that big of a deal.
    Sorry, but it is a big deal. I've used modo and it's very nice app, but destructive workflow outweighs any possible advantages it could have over XSI (not many actually). It's like going back to stone age.
  • Mark Dygert
    I always hear people saying 3dsmax is lacking in animation department, but I have yet to know why. Im curious as I have only used 3dsmax for modeling, only did animation with it while i was in school and thats it. Been using Maya professionally ever since.
    It's not that Maya does it perfectly, its just that there are a lot of little things in max that add up to more friction for the whole process.

    1) The curve editor drastically affects viewport playback speed.
    You have to either close it, or deselect everything which you are constantly having to do each time you play your animation. Or you forget to do that and then suddenly are reminded when it drops to -10fps, you stop, close it or deselect and then hit play again. Doing that a few hundred times a day will have beating your monitor with your keyboard.

    So people tend to render out a quick preview animation (Maya calls this PlayBlast) it's a fast render played back instantly after it's done. But it opens in windows media player, you can't scrub media player frame by frame. Setting avi's to open in something like quicktime doesn't work, Max stubbornly clings to media player. You have to render a custom file, then open it separately through quicktime, which adds another layer of annoying friction to a work around that wouldn't exist if the damn curve editor didn't lag the viewport... grr... (deep breath)

    2) The modifier stack is a blessing to modeling but can be a curse to animation.
    It's great when you can collapse the stack with impunity and you're happy going back down to a base object. When you carefully construct a stack with skin, unwrap, skinwrap, FFD or cloth modifiers that you can't really collapse, it becomes a balancing act. It really becomes a problem if you need to tweak UV's or you need another modifier inserted and it has to go in just the right spot and be collapsed in just the right way or it could screw up everything. In maya the UV editor is a mode that you can pop open at any time, its just a UV editor not a modifier dependent feature. It's not screwing with a delicately balanced stack. Which makes doing things like UV animation much easier.

    3) Because 3dsmax evaluates everything in the stack from the bottom up...
    The longer the stack is the slower everything goes. So you could just keep adding modifiers and not collapsing it quickly stops being an option when max rolls over and dies instead of updating the viewport.
    Or you are passing a selection up the stack and operating on just it when you forget to exit sub-object model the right way and your stack explodes with problems. Fixing the selection doesn't always fix the problems that it causes. Close, reopen and start over.

    4) A lot of places don't rig from scratch and build custom tools as they go, but instead use biped.
    This is were a lot of max animation hate is generated. It doesn't behave like normal animation that everyone is used to, even inside of max with standard max objects its different.
    Biped on paper seems awesome, it saves time and comes loaded with tools that if you where in Maya you would have to find, license or build yourself. Working with motion, blending animations and retargeting is great, until motion builder came along it was king, even now its still easier to do it all in one spot. BUT it has a lot of draw backs once you start using it to hand key animation. I could get into all of its problems but it probably needs its own thread... ha.

    5) For Maya guys, animating with biped is a nightmare.
    So many little hitches and hickups, silly rules and goofy work arounds that it gets to be too much. If you start with max/biped you can tradition to other things just fine, but going the other way isn't as easy. If you've animated in maya trying to use only HumanIK, its kind of like that but a little crappier.
  • WarrenM
    Sorry, but it is a big deal. I've used modo and it's very nice app, but destructive workflow outweighs any possible advantages it could have over XSI (not many actually). It's like going back to stone age.
    For you. :) Everyone has different workflows. I don't miss it when I'm in Modo and especially not now with the MeshFusion plugin ...
  • JedTheKrampus
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    JedTheKrampus polycounter lvl 8
    I pretty much like to use anything that's not Max. When I use Max, I feel like I need a shower afterwards.

    Maya can be a little frustrating too for me. There are a lot of annoying bugs that simply don't exist in Blender or Modo...stuff like the default Lambert randomly becoming invisible just annoys me. Plus if you turn on autosave in the student-licensed version Maya throws a pop-up at you when you're in the middle of something every five minutes. If they would change that I might be more inclined to use Maya.

    I cut my teeth on Blender, so of course I love it the most. Modo is good too; I miss my up-arrow in Modo whenever I use anything else.
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