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this makes me sick

polycounter lvl 11
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rino polycounter lvl 11
V43BTV0.jpg

his work is actually pretty decent and he doesn't lie when he says that no one will work for less money... charges 12$ per prop

really makes me sad that this shit keeps happening

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  • aesir
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    aesir polycounter lvl 18
    Let's all pitch in some money and see how many penises we can get modeled. And there will be many many rounds of revisions.
  • skyline5gtr
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    skyline5gtr polycounter lvl 9
    How can anyone survive like that
  • battlecow
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    battlecow polycounter lvl 12
    underpricing to get attention, probably third world country and of course pirated software.
  • skyline5gtr
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    skyline5gtr polycounter lvl 9
    even still 12 an asset if it takes 2-3 days to do that lets say he gets 4 done a week , that only 800 a month. Cant even rent anything for that lol
  • WarrenM
    "No, it's a tank but also a penis ... what do you mean you don't understand?"
  • stickadtroja
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    stickadtroja polycounter lvl 11
    wow this is a constructive thread. lets all hate this unknown person for trying to make money.
  • WarrenM
    Before you get killed, I'll just throw out here this is a bigger picture thing rather than hating this guy for wanting to make money. He's encouraging a race to the bottom, which bones all freelancers everywhere.
  • SnowInChina
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    SnowInChina interpolator
    How can anyone survive like that

    there are countrys where you can live a decent, or at least normal, life with 800$/month
  • skyline5gtr
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    skyline5gtr polycounter lvl 9
    guess im in the wrong country 800 barley pays my loans lol
  • gsokol
    WarrenM wrote: »
    Before you get killed, I'll just throw out here this is a bigger picture thing rather than hating this guy for wanting to make money. He's encouraging a race to the bottom, which bones all freelancers everywhere.

    this.
  • beefaroni
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    beefaroni sublime tool
    @Skyline - Yea, there are artists in pretty poor countries where $800 a month to sit in front of a computer making props is a pretty pretty sweet gig. Especially countries where there are no laws in place against pirated software yet.
  • rube
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    rube polycounter lvl 17
    I do agree with the 'race to the bottom' concept but $12 is a prop he expects to finish in 1 hour(as stated on the unity thread). It's not a 2-3 day job. Still too low, but he's basically going for minimum wage to try and build a reputation, which may not be the reputation you want in the end.
  • ExcessiveZero
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    ExcessiveZero polycounter lvl 6
    I have seen this guy on the unreal forums, a 12 dollar asset is like a T pipe
    https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?20935-The-Cheapest-Props-Modeler-in-the-Unreal-Community!-You-want-it-I-ll-make-it-CHEAP!

    charges about 55 dollars for a fantasy weapon so its not like any prop=12 dollars
    At these low rates it must be mentioned that as good as the work you see here is I am still speed modeling / texturing. If your project requires higher quality assets then the price of the assets will adjust as well. If you want the fastest, cheapest assets that's something we can do that. If you want something more high-end and next-gen then the pricing will obviously adjust to fit your needs.

    this is the bit I have a problem with
    I also still guarantee that I will be the most cheapest, most affordable modeler here on the Unreal forums. I prove this guarantee by adding that I will undercut any bid for work by 5%.

    that is just being cunty.
  • juniez
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    juniez polycounter lvl 10
    oh, i remember that pipe:

    http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=138075

    tbh i'd charge 12 bux for a pipe like that, and it's not like bare-bones indie folk have a big next-gen freelance market anyways (i think?)
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    Yeah it's crappy art for crappy pay, not too surprising.
  • WarrenM
  • Equanim
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    Equanim polycounter lvl 11
    Fiverr has a bunch of these guys.

    http://www.fiverr.com/search/gigs?utf8=%E2%9C%93&search_in=everywhere&query=3d+model&page=1&layout=auto

    Most are using $5 as a hook. The top ranked guy for example tacks on $40 for renders. I'm also willing to bet that a lot of these guys keep the rights to the models when they're done to sell in other marketplaces. It can actually be more secure than the Unity Asset store because you know you have at least one buyer.

    Infinite revisions will get you in trouble with a client. Undercutting anyone by 5% as a rule will get you in trouble with the rest of the industry. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets passed over for a job just on principal.
  • ambershee
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    ambershee polycounter lvl 17
    Let's face it though, somewhere like Vietnam, $12 for a days work can go reasonably far. If you want to beat these guys, beat them on quality and professionalism, not on price - because that's where they tend to not be able to compete.
  • Joao Sapiro
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    Joao Sapiro sublime tool
    he is probably young , he will learn the hardway about what he is doing. he isnt damaging freelancers everywhere , he is simply damaging himself. Its kinda sad actually.
  • Jeremy Mitchell
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    Jeremy Mitchell polycounter lvl 6
    You get what you pay for.
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    Shinigami wrote: »
    This^^


    Imo people in 3rd world countries should not be allowed to 'work' in the western market unless they move.

    lol... what?

    you'd absolutely fit in on any board of executives anywhere, especially in a banking firm with that attitude.

    as for what the guy is offering?

    the art isn't terrible. but it's not good either. it's passable. this very much falls into a "you get what you pay for" category. the only people likely to pay for his services are people who can't afford better artists, and while it will tide them over "for now" if their project ever reaches the point where they're looking at an actual public release then they'll also realise that work of this quality just doesn't cut it, and that they'll have to pay more for better art.

    it really is that simple:
    if you want to compete with him, do it by making better art, and providing a more professional service. the clients will come.
  • iconoplast
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    iconoplast polycounter lvl 13
    Shinigami wrote: »
    Imo people in 3rd world countries should not be allowed to 'work' in the western market unless they move.
    So people who live in countries that were not allied with the US or USSR during the cold war shouldn't be allowed to complete jobs for the "western market" (whatever that might be defined as)?
  • Lamont
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    Lamont polycounter lvl 15
    battlecow wrote: »
    underpricing to get attention, probably third world country and of course pirated software.
    Doesn`t have to be third-world. I know people who charge super cheap and live in expensive places like Tokyo. He lives in a studio, can crank out sprite art (retro as well) like no ones business. He is really fast and decent quality. Every once in a while he will do a high paying long term gig. But the $15~$20 per asset jobs is what keeps his lights on. Most people order a couple dozen characters. So I guess there's that.
  • SecretPro
    Shinigami wrote: »
    NhmHZUy.jpg

    Thats just... aaaarrrghhh fuckd u

    What is wrong with the statement?
  • skylebones
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    skylebones polycounter lvl 10
    it really is that simple:
    if you want to compete with him, do it by making better art, and providing a more professional service. the clients will come.

    Yeah pretty much this.
  • ENODMI
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    ENODMI polycounter lvl 14
    aesir wrote: »
    Let's all pitch in some money and see how many penises we can get modeled. And there will be many many rounds of revisions.

    Lets not let this die. I have 12 dollars...
  • [Deleted User]
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    [Deleted User] polycounter lvl 3
    guess im in the wrong country 800 barley pays my loans lol

    Many people in Poland would like to have 800$ month. Most have like 60-80% of this.
  • SecretPro
    Shinigami wrote: »
    Im not referring to allies. I mean imagine if more and more indians come to that industry and work for 20 $/day, but produce fairly good props. Compqnies would more likely pick them than someone who does the same for 40 $/hr. I just mean that it should be a win win situation for all parties abd not only for 1 or 2. It should be a fair competition but its rather going to be get 'OK' pay less


    That is already happening LOL and there is no stopping. The end goal for most products in the entertainment industry is to make it cheaper and faster. While still maintaining the same quality.

    Here is one example: Life After Pi

    I think the worst thing to do, is to take jobs away from others not cool.
  • Equanim
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    Equanim polycounter lvl 11
    Don't forget that he's undercutting people in his own country too. This isn't good business anywhere you're located.

    Also I'm tired of the sob story rhetoric: "Just because he lives in a third world country, he can't pursue his dreams?" Excuse me, but just because I live in a first world country (that kind of invented most of the technology we use and educated us both) I can't pursue mine?

    If a euro goes so far in a third world country, and he's competing for first world clients, why should he decrease his wage so much? A first world citizen could be living a normal life while you put ALL of your kids through college (abroad or locally) with an industry standard wage. But no, he'd rather exercise a complete lack of foresight and bring his shiny tech career into a nose dive by dramatically undercutting what he's worth.

    No one's saying he can't pursue his dream, we'd just like to see him do it more responsibly. He'll make more money in the process.
  • rino
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    rino polycounter lvl 11
    aesir wrote: »
    Let's all pitch in some money and see how many penises we can get modeled. And there will be many many rounds of revisions.

    ok, we can try. i wonder if i order a penis without balls would i get a discount? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
    he is probably young , he will learn the hardway about what he is doing. he isnt damaging freelancers everywhere , he is simply damaging himself. Its kinda sad actually.

    i disagree, on his resume says he's 21, that's not young, even if it is, there is plenty of information on the internet about prices. very sad.
  • DireWolf
    Just adding some information. New collage graduate in my country usually start their career in studio at around $250 USD a month. So yeah we can definitely live quite a good life with $15 a day, ONLY if we're single with no commitments at all. Possible for a 21-year-old tho.
  • skyline5gtr
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    skyline5gtr polycounter lvl 9
    mantragora wrote: »
    Many people in Poland would like to have 800$ month. Most have like 60-80% of this.

    Yea but cost of living is crazy different as well. In the US, its near impossible to be a college graduate and make less then 30k a year
  • Torch
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    Torch interpolator
    This reminded me of something I saw a little while back, when another artist (won't name who) was advertising their work on some work classified forums.

    delpd8G.jpg

    After seeing his model I kept thinking damn, it looks so familiar... then I remembered, oh yeah, most of the clothing is from Richard Smith's character tut for Gnomon:

    f7OG28O.jpg

    I suppose that's one way to make a living, just rip parts from other peoples sculpts/models and sell them off as your own :D
  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 12
    ... This is depressing. :(
  • [Deleted User]
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    [Deleted User] polycounter lvl 3
    Yea but cost of living is crazy different as well. In the US, its near impossible to be a college graduate and make less then 30k a year

    When you earn 60-80% of 800$ in Poland, you will have problems with renting room and still having money for school, food etc. Forget about having family or your own house. We have bigger prices in Poland than you have in US yet we earn 3-4 times less than in other UE countries and possibly US.
  • Neox
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    Neox veteran polycounter
    you have already lost if you think about those guys to be competition, there will always be cheaper guys...
  • stickadtroja
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    stickadtroja polycounter lvl 11
    haha, i dont think i was to harsh with my first comment. at first i feelt a little bit guilty, i mean how could i know that this thread would derail in to ingorant, closed minded, slightly racist whining, instead of constructive discussion? well then Shinigami and Equanim proved me right.

    you guys, youd have to KNOW that stuff like this would happen, and you have no right in hell trying to blame the induvidual for any of this. he just wants to make money, and he found a niche which probably for him is sustaniable. thats capitalism for you. so just like some people said, you have to step up and offer something better, if you want to compete. instead of blaming this person for having so low living costs, you could ask yourselfs why that is the case, maybe its a result of the western world stealing the resources from the now 3rd world contries? so to sit here and judge a person like this, who found some way of actually using that for their benefit, is for me really, really ignorant.
    its capitalism, its what fucked up the world in the first place, and now you say the victims of it cant use it for their benefit, beacuse that forces you to not always have the dream job you want?
    anyway, i dont know anything about this person, it might aswell be a wealthy 12 year old in a western country, doing it just to fuck over freelancers. in anyway, you STILL wouldnt have a right to whine, cuz they are still playing by the rules.
  • JohnnyRaptor
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    JohnnyRaptor polycounter lvl 15
    unless he is pirating all his software of course..
  • stickadtroja
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    stickadtroja polycounter lvl 11
    please link to proof of this. it would really help the discussion more than just empty speculation
  • MrOneTwo
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    MrOneTwo polycounter lvl 12
    mantragora wrote: »
    When you earn 60-80% of 800$ in Poland, you will have problems with renting room and still having money for school, food etc. Forget about having family or your own house. We have bigger prices in Poland than you have in US yet we earn 3-4 times less than in other UE countries and possibly US.

    I don't know how prices look in US. The prices in western Europe are way higher than in Poland though.

    800$ (after taxes) is a decent pay in Poland. If you are working with expensive software and are using skills you acquired through years of practice you shouldn't agree on 800$. Even in Poland... Unless you produce below average art.

    (I'm from Poland too)
  • battlecow
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    battlecow polycounter lvl 12
    well this is below average stuff.
    It's a non issue, nobody will buy these.Maybe some guy in his basement trying to prototype a game will.
    12$ for slaping a texture from cgtextures on a box is pretty good though.

    I hope I don't come along too much as a dick with my statement, I shall edit myself if I do.

    Serious clients are all about having a healthy relationship with their freelancers, you have to be available and always deliver quality. It's cheaper to have things done by one guy that you know will deliver, that you can reach on the phone/meet for a briefing within the same working hours.
    It's all about finding the right clients.
  • Wesley
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    Wesley polycounter lvl 13
    lol... what?

    Right? I bet that guy doesn't mind buying his super cheap 'third world' goods though.
  • wasker
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    wasker polycounter lvl 7
    south-park-s08e06c05-they-took-our-jobs-16x9.jpg

    Let people work for whatever they want to make. Seriously - why do you care? Do you know how many people on a site like Deviantart or whatever are willing to work for next to nothing / free in return for "exposure"? Yes, it's hurting our side of the industry (a bit) but there will always be uneducated clients and oblivious workers no matter how you look at it. If you're good at your craft you can do whatever you want. Hating on poor/undercutting people just because they exist aint cool.
  • SecretPro
    wasker wrote: »
    Let people work for whatever they want to make. Seriously - why do you care? Do you know how many people on a site like Deviantart or whatever are willing to work for next to nothing / free in return for "exposure"? Yes, it's hurting our side of the industry (a bit) but there will always be uneducated clients and oblivious workers no matter how you look at it. If you're good at your craft you can do whatever you want. Hating on poor/undercutting people just because they exist aint cool.

    Well said, plain and simple.:)
  • skyline5gtr
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    skyline5gtr polycounter lvl 9
    mantragora wrote: »
    When you earn 60-80% of 800$ in Poland, you will have problems with renting room and still having money for school, food etc. Forget about having family or your own house. We have bigger prices in Poland than you have in US yet we earn 3-4 times less than in other UE countries and possibly US.

    Trust me i know the feeling im in the US and lucky to make 1500-2000 a month
  • Fuse
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    Fuse polycounter lvl 18
    make better art.. problem solved
  • skyline5gtr
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    skyline5gtr polycounter lvl 9
    Fuse wrote: »
    make better art.. problem solved

    I suck, working on it lol, problem not solved :poly124:
  • Leinad
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    Leinad polycounter lvl 11
    This is the reality of a global economy and purchasing power of currency. Also his pricing reflects the quality and time spent on his work.

    This simply shifts more emphases on quality. It has always happened, this isn't something new.
  • kaptainkernals
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    kaptainkernals polycounter lvl 12
    While my following statement isn't from a game art perspective, but rather a freelance design/development perspective, it is pertinent to the conversation in regards to the risk of being undercut from other artists, and what sets you as an artist apart from them.

    There is more to producing something for a client that just providing a model, and you honestly shouldn't worry about being undercut by an artist like this.

    Will some people purchase his art, yes, will it appear in a shipped title, or something the world would likely see, no. It's good for place holder art, for a prototype.

    What will set you apart from undercut artists, and keep clients both coming back to you, and getting you referred (which is how you get to be successful as a freelancer)

    • Excellent communication
    • Keeping to your promises
    • Good design/art/what ever service you're providing
    • Ability to receive criticism(whether it's valid or not)

    I've had many clients come back to me, and refer me, simply because of good communication, they know whats happening with the project, they can trust you, they know exactly what they're getting from you, and so your high fee is all worth it.

    Keeping your promises / keeping to deadlines, if your deadline is 1 week, deliver before or on deadline, not after, tardiness is a great way of not getting referred:
    "He's a great artist, he's just not very quick" / "He's great, just expect it to be done in 2 weeks not 1".

    This individual, is creating a reputation for himself, that reputation is that of quick, cheap, bad art, that is great for prototyping, but that you throw away as soon as you've got enough people interested in the concept, and can hire a professional artist.

    And a professional artist will fill those characteristics listed above, and be able to charge a professional amount. Also, as a professional, your fee is a great filtration device. People who pay high, are usually those who understand what you're putting in, and what they're getting out. They will value you, and your time a great deal more.(in my experience any way)

    Give yourself a cheap fee, and you won't be valued, and you'll be messed around, because your time isn't valued, by yourself, or the client.

    But at the end of your day, your rate can't be higher than your skill level, but it certainly won't be $12 per prop, even if it takes only an hour.

    Regarding that comment screenshot (posted by Shinigami) of the vfx artist being undercut by Asian and South Africans, I live in South Africa, and I don't know anyone, who would charge $2/day, let alone $2/hour. To convert my hourly rate on graphic design to dollars, it'll be close, if not above $40/hr, and this isn't a greedy amount, this is what i'd need minimum to get by in South Africa, contrary to popular belief, it's not cheap to live in South Africa, but it's also certainly not US / EU living costs.

    At the end of the day, you get what you pay for, and you don't want the clients who underpay / undervalue your work. Because there are clients out there who do know the value of a good artist, and they're not scarce, you just need to get referred(who you know / who knows you)
  • low odor
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    low odor polycounter lvl 17
    well said.. :thumbup:
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