so, the next couple of weeks we just gonna see goathorns on pretty much everything right? i mean, I gonna do it myself but.. well.. kinda getting prepared to see it happen ^^
here's an idea: i know we've got some people in the know around here. Could we start a thread (or even just use this one) where we can post concepts/wips SPECIFICALLY for discussion on how it might be perceived by a chinese audience?
I know last year there was at least one thread of discussion on the subject, but not (to my knowledge) a specific place to discuss it on a project by project basis.
I would suggest staying away from any elements you see when you google stereotypical chinaman or yellow peril. Mainly, the braid, bucket/rice hats, fu man chu mustache. While they're legitimately a part of Chinese history, these are also the elements that have been zeroed in on by propagandists and hollywood in the late 19th century to demonize Chinese citizens (like "blackface"). Just common sense, really.
I think perhaps a good source of inspiration is the Dynasty Warriors games.
That was my inspiration until the whole "don't mix classes rule" wherein my confidence dropped like a rock. Those are clearly a mix of Japanese and Chinese cultural clothes, mixed with fantasy in all sorts of ways (not sure about class, honestly... don't think most people outside of China/with a Chinese history of traditional clothes major, would). Which I thought was fine, because the end result is historically inspired "fantasy" but then with this rule... I feel like I'd offend all of China.
Thanks for the feed back guys. After not looking at it for a while coming back to it now, I agree with you guys. Ram horns it is
Also @Snowstorm - Yeah, it could use probably use bit more CNY or New Bloom influence. But at this point I kinda wanna just finish this up quickly and then start working on something from scratch that's actually meant for the event.
I think if you want more New Bloom flavour. Make the tail a flower. With the main tail as as a blossomed flower and the side tails as new sprouting leaves. The horns look solid.
Just curious in general when it comes to the Chinese limitations on the item store. I'm under the impression that Chinese censorship doesn't allow for things like bones and skulls and some amount of undead, but what happens with heroes like Lich, Doom, Pugna, Clinkz, and Lifestealer? Do they have alternate models for China?
Also, how does this affect normal non-New Bloom submissions to the workshop? Are these designs a death knell or do you make an alternate version for that market?
@SteveOJ,
Well since Chinese braids are apparently offensive, and since I couldn't really find anything about what is perceived wrong in Chinese culture and the ambiguity of "traditional divisions". I thought I should at least see ifs offensive before I mess around with it a bit more.
IMHO: next year is the year of the goat or ram, so the most similar character in dota 2 to this animals is Riki or Elder Titan. Maybe it will good to try stylise those guys.
how important do we feel the animal symbol is for the event - or is it enough just to focus on it being chinese influenced?
like...does everything REALLY have to have a ram or ram horns on it somewhere?
i remember there were a lot of times last year where a set would have been much better if it hadn't had a damn horse head glued on to it somewhere.
@SteveOJ,
Well since Chinese braids are apparently offensive, and since I couldn't really find anything about what is perceived wrong in Chinese culture and the ambiguity of "traditional divisions". I thought I should at least see ifs offensive before I mess around with it a bit more.
As I said, it's not as much offensive as it is a little ignorant. Not saying you're an ignorant person though!
The hats in question, the conical type and bowl with raised lid + mullet hairstyle, were often incorporated with stereotypes of Chinese people during the "Yellow Peril" of the late 19th century, as was mentioned before. Going straight for this type of design does make sure everyone recognizes it as Chinese, but it might not be the best or most developed option.
China has a great history of splendor, legends and beauty. Go digging and I bet you'll find some great inspiration!
As I said, it's not as much offensive as it is a little ignorant. Not saying you're an ignorant person though!
The hats in question, the conical type and bowl with raised lid + mullet hairstyle, were often incorporated with stereotypes of Chinese people during the "Yellow Peril" of the late 19th century, as was mentioned before. Going straight for this type of design does make sure everyone recognizes it as Chinese, but it might not be the best or most developed option.
China has a great history of splendor, legends and beauty. Go digging and I bet you'll find some great inspiration!
This! Seriously, do some research into the stereotypes. It's pretty clear what to avoid. Unless you have bigger plans with that hat, like fleshing it out completely, you run the risk of having it come across as known racist imagery. I dont think your design is outright bad, but valve might not be interested in the risk of controversy.
how important do we feel the animal symbol is for the event - or is it enough just to focus on it being chinese influenced?
like...does everything REALLY have to have a ram or ram horns on it somewhere?
i remember there were a lot of times last year where a set would have been much better if it hadn't had a damn horse head glued on to it somewhere.
Not that important. There were a ton of horse items last year, but the stuff that got accepted speak a different story.
http://dota2.gamepedia.com/New_Bloom_Festival_2014
Bloom Harvest chest: 3/15 items have a horse. (Including the red hoof courier)
Crafting recipes rewards: 0/2 have a horse
Seal of Vermilion Renewal: 3/10 have a horse.
Store sets: ??? (Not listed on the gamepedia page)
conclusion: the "year of the x" animals aren't that important
Just curious in general when it comes to the Chinese limitations on the item store. I'm under the impression that Chinese censorship doesn't allow for things like bones and skulls and some amount of undead, but what happens with heroes like Lich, Doom, Pugna, Clinkz, and Lifestealer? Do they have alternate models for China?
They have low-violence models/textures for all those heroes.
Example, if you get the tech files for lifestealer, shadow demon etc.. there's a subfolder with the low violence textures.
Well I know to avoid stereotypes however, some things that cultures deem appropriate others deem offensive.
Just like this (L4D2 Box cover). These little things can mean whether something is aesthetic or offensive. I may be looking into this too deep but with the "rule" of class separation I feel like its better to be safe than sorry.
As for my concept, I was always planning to add things afterward
@Danpaz, do you know where those files are exactly? All I know is thats it not in the native materials/models folder.
Gonna be wrapping up my current set and then working on something for New Bloom in about a week. Already have ideas tossing around in my head though.
Before I get into solidifying the design I would like to know if anybody with better knowledge of Chinese culture could answer the following question for me: Is mixing and mashing design elements from different traditional forms offensive or looked down upon in any way? For example mixing elements from the Chinese lion and dragon with elements from the goat/ram to make unique mount.
@SteveOJ,
Well since Chinese braids are apparently offensive, and since I couldn't really find anything about what is perceived wrong in Chinese culture and the ambiguity of "traditional divisions". I thought I should at least see ifs offensive before I mess around with it a bit more.
The 'Queue' is the offensive braid. It's male, shaved head, braid off the back. It's offensive because a brutal regime forced men to cut their hair like this after it took over. Not doing so was punishable by death. (from what I recall)
Any advantage for submitting items/sets for the Bloom event and limiting myself to the event design requirement versus making items/sets for general submission?
Any advantage for submitting items/sets for the Bloom event and limiting myself to the event design requirement versus making items/sets for general submission?
I guess you have a better chance of getting them in come February? Where as a general submission might be accepted next year.
I'm new to making items aimed at the Chinese market. I don't have much experience with Dota2 either. Would an item set/character which partially resembles Baphomet be a no-no? There won't be any kind of pentagrams, just a goat's head which turns out to be evil, goat feet etc.
I've found this discussion which implies that most players are fine with this kind of stuff but what about the Chinese?
I'm new to making items aimed at the Chinese market. I don't have much experience with Dota2 either. Would an item set/character which partially resembles Baphomet be a no-no? There won't be any kind of pentagrams, just a goat's head which turns out to be evil, goat feet etc.
I've found this discussion which implies that most players are fine with this kind of stuff but what about the Chinese?
There's already a Doom set made by Terra Cotta going in game based on that theme so unfortunately it's probably not a good idea.
It was probably addressed with the previous New Bloom, but there are a few really goofy taboos with Chinese culture that don't make much sense in the West.
Avoid anything associated with the number four, or with other numbers that aren't even. The number four is pronounced the same as the word "death" and pretty much everywhere you go people avoid it. Hell, even apartments will have lower rent on the 4th floor and/or only rent the floor to foreigners in some places.
Anything involving money or victory should avoid being associated with books because "book" and "lose" sound alike.
Avoid overuse of the color white if you're going for something mystical looking. White can be used to represent sorrow and poverty. And worse, white flowers are most often used at funerals. Yikes.
There are actually a few taboos specifically for the Chinese New Year. Words like "break" "spoil" "die" "gone" and "poor" aren't even supposed to be said out loud.
Replies
Excuse me while i sculpt some ram horns.
A rice hat is the jackpot.
I know last year there was at least one thread of discussion on the subject, but not (to my knowledge) a specific place to discuss it on a project by project basis.
Stereotypes of east asians in the US
It was the Bandwagon Express conductor screaming "ALL ABOARD!!!". So I made a ram horn version just for fun :poly124:
Now I'm not sure which horns I should go with for the final. Would really like to hear your opinions on it.
The ram horns look pretty good! It doesn't really scream CNY SPRING 2015 to me though. But yeah, the ram horns are cool :P
Also @Snowstorm - Yeah, it could use probably use bit more CNY or New Bloom influence. But at this point I kinda wanna just finish this up quickly and then start working on something from scratch that's actually meant for the event.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=353547771
I think if you want more New Bloom flavour. Make the tail a flower. With the main tail as as a blossomed flower and the side tails as new sprouting leaves. The horns look solid.
Also, how does this affect normal non-New Bloom submissions to the workshop? Are these designs a death knell or do you make an alternate version for that market?
Also, there's low violence models for Chinese clients. Some of them look really cool actually!
Those are chinese offical hats (Qin Dynasty)
The story goes something like, ogre magi went though an unattended tent and took some stuff.
China has a really rich mythological history, and I've been reading up on it for some set ideas.
Well since Chinese braids are apparently offensive, and since I couldn't really find anything about what is perceived wrong in Chinese culture and the ambiguity of "traditional divisions". I thought I should at least see ifs offensive before I mess around with it a bit more.
It is also the year of the GREEN ram.
like...does everything REALLY have to have a ram or ram horns on it somewhere?
i remember there were a lot of times last year where a set would have been much better if it hadn't had a damn horse head glued on to it somewhere.
As I said, it's not as much offensive as it is a little ignorant. Not saying you're an ignorant person though!
The hats in question, the conical type and bowl with raised lid + mullet hairstyle, were often incorporated with stereotypes of Chinese people during the "Yellow Peril" of the late 19th century, as was mentioned before. Going straight for this type of design does make sure everyone recognizes it as Chinese, but it might not be the best or most developed option.
China has a great history of splendor, legends and beauty. Go digging and I bet you'll find some great inspiration!
This! Seriously, do some research into the stereotypes. It's pretty clear what to avoid. Unless you have bigger plans with that hat, like fleshing it out completely, you run the risk of having it come across as known racist imagery. I dont think your design is outright bad, but valve might not be interested in the risk of controversy.
Not that important. There were a ton of horse items last year, but the stuff that got accepted speak a different story.
http://dota2.gamepedia.com/New_Bloom_Festival_2014
Bloom Harvest chest: 3/15 items have a horse. (Including the red hoof courier)
Crafting recipes rewards: 0/2 have a horse
Seal of Vermilion Renewal: 3/10 have a horse.
Store sets: ??? (Not listed on the gamepedia page)
conclusion: the "year of the x" animals aren't that important
They have low-violence models/textures for all those heroes.
Example, if you get the tech files for lifestealer, shadow demon etc.. there's a subfolder with the low violence textures.
Just like this (L4D2 Box cover). These little things can mean whether something is aesthetic or offensive. I may be looking into this too deep but with the "rule" of class separation I feel like its better to be safe than sorry.
As for my concept, I was always planning to add things afterward
@Danpaz, do you know where those files are exactly? All I know is thats it not in the native materials/models folder.
Example from Tech page, hero specific resources site
http://www.dota2.com/workshop/requirements/Lifestealer
Lifestealer. The low violence is included..
http://media.steampowered.com/apps/dota2/workshop/life_stealer.zip
Before I get into solidifying the design I would like to know if anybody with better knowledge of Chinese culture could answer the following question for me: Is mixing and mashing design elements from different traditional forms offensive or looked down upon in any way? For example mixing elements from the Chinese lion and dragon with elements from the goat/ram to make unique mount.
Hoe you like it!!
Even female characters with a braid?
The 'Queue' is the offensive braid. It's male, shaved head, braid off the back. It's offensive because a brutal regime forced men to cut their hair like this after it took over. Not doing so was punishable by death. (from what I recall)
This specific braid is the braid in question.
https://diogenesii.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/july-21-1645/
Not sure how much of the narrative is fact, but it fits into what I've heard.
I guess you have a better chance of getting them in come February? Where as a general submission might be accepted next year.
Some of you have seen already, but this is what im workin on
I've found this discussion which implies that most players are fine with this kind of stuff but what about the Chinese?
There's already a Doom set made by Terra Cotta going in game based on that theme so unfortunately it's probably not a good idea.
Thanks for the answer, I had no idea about that set.
Avoid anything associated with the number four, or with other numbers that aren't even. The number four is pronounced the same as the word "death" and pretty much everywhere you go people avoid it. Hell, even apartments will have lower rent on the 4th floor and/or only rent the floor to foreigners in some places.
Anything involving money or victory should avoid being associated with books because "book" and "lose" sound alike.
Avoid overuse of the color white if you're going for something mystical looking. White can be used to represent sorrow and poverty. And worse, white flowers are most often used at funerals. Yikes.
There are actually a few taboos specifically for the Chinese New Year. Words like "break" "spoil" "die" "gone" and "poor" aren't even supposed to be said out loud.