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Not adding to the Wiki?

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I think our wiki is great, but I feel like it could be so much more than it is.

We have a lot of editors now, but people don't do much. Why is this?

There is so much great content here on the forums, but it gets lost over time as it scrolls down into the back pages.

Is the wiki too slow to open up? Our wiki software has been a server hog in the past, maybe it's still slow for people.

How difficult is it to search for things? We have FindPage, but maybe we could add Google search, or re-organize to make it easier to discover things.

Does the wiki software get in the way? We could change to another wiki backend, if that would help. Like maybe MediaWiki, what they use for Wikipedia. Our current software does have an easy editor, but you kind of have to seek it out.

Any ideas to make things better?

Replies

  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    I haven't tried editing it but just using the wiki is very slow, it prevents me from doing any sort of deep dive for information.
  • Xoliul
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    Xoliul polycounter lvl 14
    Well for one, opening that members page takes 10 seconds for me...

    I tried to get write access once, years ago though, i think I had to ask a fella named 'Don' or something. Nothing ever came of it.
  • Will Faucher
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    Will Faucher polycounter lvl 12
    Yeah, the slowness really gets to me too, I thought it was my net for the longest time, turns out I'm not the only one!
  • Eric Chadwick
    Yep, slow for me as well. So is that the only problem? I must admit it is a major deterrence. Is there anything else we can/should do?

    Xoliul, I can easily set you up as an editor, just send me your info.
  • throttlekitty
    If you're looking for feedback, I've always found the wiki hard to navigate, and feels more like a collection of bookmarks than a wiki. I know it's your baby, Eric, a great resource, but it's kind of messy.

    For example:
    http://wiki.polycount.com/CategoryTexturing

    Coming from the front page, a little time could be spent introducing the concept of textures/maps, defining them, and their relation to materials and different techniques and programs to create them. Instead, everything looks a bit placeholder and is a little hard to scan: "CategoryXxxxxxx" AndOneWordLinks Makereadinghard. Is the wiki software hardcoded to always use the page name? If links could be made more legible and lists could be logically grouped (ex. Pages in this Category) and in multiple columns, it would help a ton. As always, look at the pages from the eyes of a new user working on their first or second model.

    As a hub page, I think most of links in the 'related pages' would be better served as category headers here, instead of spread out over several pages a user needs to drill through. The content pages are fine, EdgePadding is great, it's just a matter of getting there.

    To me, these are big deterrents. Categories seem to have a good tree structure, but finding the right places for things feels like a big messy chore. Sign me up as an editor, I'll send you a PM.
  • Eric Chadwick
    Awesome feedback!

    Don't worry about hurting my feelings or anything. I'm totally open to improving things, not attached to the current setup in any way.

    Yeah, the Category function is ugly. Hard-coded that way in MoinMoin unfortunately :(. Another reason to convert to a different wiki software. Converting is going to be a pain, but I'm willing to do it if it needs to be done.

    Happy to sign anyone up as an editor. I just need two things: your email address (never shared, for password recovery) and the name you want to use (real name in FirstnameLastname format, or your Forum name). If you don't want your email out here on the Forum, then a PM is probably best.
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    Personally, I rarely visit it because of the slow loading (10 seconds per page give or take), but also because of the dark, forum-like layout. (Now of course it goes without saying that the content itself is great !)

    I think it would benefit from a much simpler visual organisation - something bright and easy to read through, like the pages of the Unreal Wiki for instance :

    https://wiki.unrealengine.com/Dynamic_Depth_of_Field

    I hope this helps !
  • ExcessiveZero
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    ExcessiveZero polycounter lvl 6
    If you're looking for feedback, I've always found the wiki hard to navigate, and feels more like a collection of bookmarks than a wiki. I know it's your baby, Eric, a great resource, but it's kind of messy.

    For example:
    http://wiki.polycount.com/CategoryTexturing

    Coming from the front page, a little time could be spent introducing the concept of textures/maps, defining them, and their relation to materials and different techniques and programs to create them. Instead, everything looks a bit placeholder and is a little hard to scan: "CategoryXxxxxxx" AndOneWordLinks Makereadinghard. Is the wiki software hardcoded to always use the page name? If links could be made more legible and lists could be logically grouped (ex. Pages in this Category) and in multiple columns, it would help a ton. As always, look at the pages from the eyes of a new user working on their first or second model.

    As a hub page, I think most of links in the 'related pages' would be better served as category headers here, instead of spread out over several pages a user needs to drill through. The content pages are fine, EdgePadding is great, it's just a matter of getting there.

    To me, these are big deterrents. Categories seem to have a good tree structure, but finding the right places for things feels like a big messy chore. Sign me up as an editor, I'll send you a PM.
    That is one of the unfortunate things I have run into while editing the wiki.
  • throttlekitty
    Exactly that, pior.

    Another thing. Earthquake's post history as a wiki page, discuss.
  • EarthQuake
    How about totally open access? One of the things that makes wikipedia great is that anyone can change/submit content. That's sort of a pain in terms of moderation/trolling, but maybe we (mods) could have some sort of way to approve content changes like we do for new users. But yeah, giving everyone access to the wiki would be interesting.

    Also <3 throttlekitty. Oh crap I went over 10K without realizing. Just call me Mop.
  • Eric Chadwick
    Spam was a hellscape before we locked it. Though there is a way to moderate in MediaWiki I think.

    Another concern I had was noobs adding stuff that is just plain wrong. But it's probably better to just open the gates wide, see what happens.

    EQ definitely has a high signal-to-noise ratio. :poly106:
  • Optinium
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    Optinium polycounter
    If you open up the wiki, would there be a way to throttle who adds content? Maybe based on the users postcount or something?
  • throttlekitty
    Another concern I had was noobs adding stuff that is just plain wrong. But it's probably better to just open the gates wide, see what happens.

    Honestly the best way for noobs to learn is by helping others or writing tutorials. I got my start in modding knowing little about 3d graphics and grew a lot by writing articles, it forced me to learn more about the finer points before committing anything to final, I'm sure you can attest to this.

    At least with a wiki (as opposed to video), discussion can be had corrections can be made, and everyone wins. Worst case scenario is that the page needs to be nuked.
  • monster
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    monster polycounter
    I can beef up the animation and rigging sections if you add me. Open access sounds pretty cool though.
  • Eric Chadwick
    monster wrote: »
    I can beef up the animation and rigging sections if you add me. Open access sounds pretty cool though.

    I just need two things: your email address (never shared, for password recovery) and the name you want to use (real name in FirstnameLastname format, or your Forum name). If you don't want your email out here on the Forum, then a PM is probably best.
  • fearian
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    fearian greentooth
    Ha, I feel bad, now, asking for access but never using it!

    On that note - Eric can you reset my password? I can't seem to do it... :(
  • Eric Chadwick
    Yeah, agreed throttlekitty. I started by trying to write a 3d glossary, helped me learn a ton, and it was how I heard about Polycount too.

    Optinium, I don't think so. The wiki would have to be linked with the forum database. I think opening it up wide would probably be the best thing, as a start.

    It has to be converted first though, will have a chat with the mod team.
  • Isaiah Sherman
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    Isaiah Sherman polycounter lvl 14
    Yeah the Wiki is insanely slow. That is the main reason why I don't like to use it.

    The organization is also very odd. The fact that it is so slow makes me not what to learn its organization.

    What about having all of the Wiki content on a 3rd party site, like Wikia?

    Also, one thing that makes all other Wikis that I have frequented great (like Wikipedia, video game Wikis), is that everyone has the ability to edit the Wiki.

    I know it sounds terrifying to allow the control open to the general public, but you will get a much more up-to-date Wiki if it allowed.
  • MiAlx
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    MiAlx polycounter lvl 10
    Yeah, I agree that the wiki is really slow. And I also think that open access is a great idea. But maybe there should be something like what EarthQuake proposed:
    EarthQuake wrote: »
    [...] but maybe we (mods) could have some sort of way to approve content changes like we do for new users. [...]

    Maybe I'm paranoid, but without that ad bots or trolls could get their hands on the wiki and all of a sudden the wiki is flooded with fake links to sites with malware, surveys and ads or just offtopic stuff.

    A couple of months ago I wanted to add a bunch of animation and rigging related tutorials to the wiki but once I saw that I had to contact the mods first to get an account, I kinda shied away, because I felt that since I am not an old and trusted member with 1k + posts I wouldn't get access anyway (I am not saying of course that it IS like that, I just thought so). So I think that ultimately a sort semi-open access system, could bring a lot of new entries to the wiki.
  • SnowInChina
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    SnowInChina interpolator
    but maybe we (mods) could have some sort of way to approve content changes like we do for new users.
    +
    maybe link the account to the forum account and only let users post that are registered for longer than 6 months and have 10 posts (for example)


    so you would avoid all the spam you would have to delete otherwise
  • Bek
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    Bek interpolator
    The wiki seems perfectly normal speed-wise for me. I think having new user's changes require approval before being committed would make sense. In the mean time I'll send you my details for an account.
  • maximumsproductions
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    maximumsproductions polycounter lvl 8
    I'll just reiterate. The speed is a little sluggish and organization is odd in some places as well.
  • Lazerus Reborn
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    Lazerus Reborn polycounter lvl 8
    If you are looking to upgrade, these are some common wiki packages for self hosting.

    MediaWiki – This is the most popular wiki software on the net, and runs wikiHow, Wikipedia, and many other wiki sites. Many of the most popular wiki farms use the MediaWiki software as well.

    TikiWiki - This is the second most popular wiki software available, and runs a large number of wikis and wiki farms. TikiWiki has strong plugin support, allowing you to add features such as forums, image galleries, calendars, and more.

    UserPress – This is a wiki plugin for WordPress. It has most of the functionality of MediaWiki and other standalone wiki software, but it's much easier to use.

    DokuWiki - This is a smaller wiki software program that is growing in popularity, especially in enterprise-level implementations. It is designed first and foremost for team and workgroup collaboration, and has multiple levels of user access.

    Some copypasta above but it saved me re-writing it ;')
  • Joost
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    Joost polycount sponsor
    I personally love the colour scheme of the wiki (and forum).

    The categorising
    could use some improvement. For example, this page

    Could be merged with this page (if it's not already?)


    While the wiki is an amazing resource and has saved my ass so many times,
    Some of the pages need more content. and some pages have no content at all. Maybe move some of the legacy content to a separate page, as it's probably not relevant to most people any more.


    Personally I never really thought of contributing because I considered myself too much of a noob but I reckon I could contribute in some specific fields. HDRis for example, if there's any interest. Or even just cleaning up links that don't work, adding tutorials, resources etc.
  • Nam.Nguyen
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    Nam.Nguyen polycounter lvl 9

    EarthQuake wrote: »
    How about totally open access? One of the things that makes wikipedia great is that anyone can change/submit content. That's sort of a pain in terms of moderation/trolling, but maybe we (mods) could have some sort of way to approve content changes like we do for new users. But yeah, giving everyone access to the wiki would be interesting.
    Optinium wrote: »
    If you open up the wiki, would there be a way to throttle who adds content? Maybe based on the users postcount or something?

    I think 82 is not kind of "a lot", and many of them are "inactive". So, open access sound good, but to prevent spamming, trolling,... we need to limit who can access, may be based on years on polycount and post count , anybody else can still have access through the "old way" ( send request to the mods ). Of course new user's post will be considering before approve.
  • Higuy
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    Higuy polycounter lvl 9
    If you're looking for feedback, I've always found the wiki hard to navigate, and feels more like a collection of bookmarks than a wiki. I know it's your baby, Eric, a great resource, but it's kind of messy.

    For example:
    http://wiki.polycount.com/CategoryTexturing

    Definitely this. I've used the wiki a ton in the past and still do, the biggest issue I have is how slow some pages are. Especially when you click a link and it doesn't open a new tab, just simply goes to the link and then when you want to go back, it takes just a long to reload the page. I agree also with kitty that is indeed a bit messy on some pages, his example is a pretty decent example as well.

    It's a great resource for finding different tutorials but just a bit slow. :)
  • Joost
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    Joost polycount sponsor
    Higuy wrote: »
    Especially when you click a link and it doesn't open a new tab

    Not sure if you know this, but middle mouse button is a quick way to open links in a new tab.
  • qleonetti
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    qleonetti polycounter lvl 6
    I would love to help, at least to clean up or find alternatives to the dead links. I'm often in the wiki these days and that can be quite annoying to be unable to quick fix these :)
  • Eric Chadwick
    Thanks everyone for the great feedback.

    We're looking into new wiki software.

    In the mean time, totally open to re-org ideas. If you would like to try something, go for it!

    To reiterate...
    Happy to sign anyone up as an editor. I just need two things: your email address (never shared, for password recovery) and the name you want to use (real name in FirstnameLastname format, or your Forum name). If you don't want your email out here on the Forum, then a PM is probably best.
  • Joost
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    Joost polycount sponsor
    I've started deleting some of the dead links. What should be done with legacy content? I.e. http://wiki.polycount.com/3%20Dimensional%20Tutorials/UVW-Mapping
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    Also, here is something interesting : On my end the first page listed below loads in a split second, but the other one consistently takes 10 seconds to show up. Yet both are just text and link content, with one being longer than the other :

    http://wiki.polycount.com/3%20Dimensional%20Tutorials/UVW-Mapping
    http://wiki.polycount.com/CategoryTexturing

    Maybe that's a sign of an easily identifiable bug somewhere ?
  • cman2k
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    cman2k polycounter lvl 17
    +1 for faster loading
    because duh.


    +1 for non-hierarchical organization

    I've always been of the mind that a mediawiki implementation would be vastly superior. I think one of the biggest strengths there is that there is NO strict hierarchy and lots of flexibility to organize information without a hierarchy. quick-linking pages and categories is huge as well.

    When people talk about 'deep-diving' into information, there is an intuitive process that involves moving from one topic to another organically, being linked deeper and deeper into a topic and moving around between information organically. The current wiki does NOT enable this, you more or less move into one topic, then hit a dead end. We need to build a web of interconnected data, not a hierarchy of roads that lead to dead-ends. This promotes learning and makes it feel easier to find what you want.

    Strict hierarchies may be perceived as useful for helping find info in the first place, but meta-tagging and 'categories' as loose concepts can be just as good without the hierarchy.


    +1 for open access

    I've had to battle spam on wiki's I have run as well, but having the doors open is often a big deal and a way to get editors in. Even if having the doors open for a while THEN locking it down later would help. With the current setup you could advertise open registration for ONE WEEK ONLY and then clean up the mess afterwards, and it would likely be way more successful then telling people "just ask nicely and we'll let you in!"



    I get very excited about the idea of a rebooted, open, faster, polycount wiki. I think there is some huge potential there.
  • Eric Chadwick
    komaokc wrote: »
    I've started deleting some of the dead links. What should be done with legacy content? I.e. http://wiki.polycount.com/3%20Dimensional%20Tutorials/UVW-Mapping

    1. Search for the page name, see if any pages link to it.
    2. If so, delete the link from those pages.
    3. Finally, delete the page (More Actions dropdown).


    pior, yeah it's because Macros in MoinMoin are crap. We could remove the macros, but then we'd lose a lot of links, which promote the non-hierarchical navigation like what cman2k is talking about. Which is a big plus, much agreed.

    I'll try open access, see what happens.
  • sltrOlsson
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    sltrOlsson polycounter lvl 14
    To be honest, I gave up trying to add stuff because my poor artist brain couldn't figure out how the formatting worked. And I remember the categorization being very confusing. So I'd definitely add stuff if it was more straight forward.
  • Two Listen
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    Two Listen polycount sponsor
    I don't add to the wiki, or try to post much in the way of "informative" stuff simply due to not feeling qualified.

    But I will take the time to say that I utterly love having the polycount wiki as an available resource. I don't add to it, but I've used it many, many times in the past to try and educate myself a bit more before giving critique, and it's come in really handy the couple times I've dabbled in simple 3D-related work.

    I've never had any issues with the organization and have always been able to find what I was looking for very easily, but I'm not opposed to seeing it improved (because that would be silly of me.)
  • Eric Chadwick
    Thanks. The biggest issue is the slow page loads. That has to be fixed. In the meantime before we convert to MediaWiki, could you take a look at this page, and let me know if it loads faster?

    http://wiki.polycount.net/CategoryWikiMembers
    I changed the macro from FullSearch to FullSearchCached.

    Searching is still slow though, not much we can do about that yet. Organization is definitely a problem as well, we'll tackle this at some point.
  • throttlekitty
    That was speedy for me.

    I'm pretty excited about moving to MediaWiki, I'm all for whatever manual work that needs to be done during the change.
  • Eric Chadwick
    Awesome, I'm sure to be calling you in on that at some point.

    O0gS2QG.gif

    We have scripts to convert with, but they're each broken in some way. So it's sure to be a bit of a chore. But once it's done, there will be teh rejoice.
  • sltrOlsson
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    sltrOlsson polycounter lvl 14
    That was speedy for me.

    I'm pretty excited about moving to MediaWiki, I'm all for whatever manual work that needs to be done during the change.

    +1

    I know how much the wiki have helped me when I went to school. I'll definitely be down to do a push to get things up and running! Eric, what ever you think I/we can help with, just shoot an email. Can't promise I'll have time, but I'll try!
  • Joost
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    Joost polycount sponsor
    Thinking about it more, it might help to open up the wiki to any member with more than a certain number of posts (i.e. 100?). Don't know if that's at all possible.

    Thanks for all the hard work Eric!
  • Eric Chadwick
    I give access to everyone who asks. But yeah, open registration would be better.
  • naptownhero
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    naptownhero polycounter lvl 4
    Hey guys whoever works on the wiki. Your work is a invaluable resource and Pushes the community to be better. I'd love to see you guys identify the problems and Then Identify the solutions. Polycount wiki is my goto helper and I would love it to be even better!
  • crestas69
    [FONT=&quot]Apology in a[/FONT][FONT=&quot]dvanced for the text bomb below :D I spotted the post, and thoughts started pouring out of me, not sure if all are possible but thought I would throw them out there![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]…. So …. here we go ….[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]+1 The thing that always seemed to put me of using he wiki was finding what I wanted as mentioned before I thing using a combination of hierarchy, tagging and Google searching would be the bests as it caters to everyone’s search methods [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]+1 For opening the wiki up to everyone but I agree the spam and accuracy of posts needs to be moderated I suggest maybe a 4 week period before allowing posts on the wiki to stop bots and a flagging system that everyone can use to alert Admins of the site for spam, outdated info, broken links and such to give everyone to method of contributing to the quality of the wiki, especially if its wick and easy.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]+1 To adding a discussion section to tutorials like on Wikipedia to help expand and deepen the information as mentioned. Maybe even give posts in the forum the quick re-post option to add to a tutorial discussion as really useful information gets added in passing on threads that is easily missed so providing a way to ad such posts to a tutorial or a more central resource section that could refer back to the thread would be amazing! [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]+1 To think having the white background is easier on the eyes for tutorials than the colour combination (it was mentioned earlier, but I also find the darker colour combination a little more of an effort to read)[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]+1 Bookmarks / subscriptions to tutorials would also be a cool idea, especially if discussions and tags are added then people can get email updates if a tut is updated or new tutorials are posted with tags that a subscriber likes[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]+1 Tutorial summaries viewable before looking at the main tut for making searches easier so people can get an idea of what the tutorial is about before opening the whole thing[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]+1 A rating system for tutorials to help find popular tutorials?[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]On a bit of a side note is it possible also to make this thread a sticky? So people can keep giving suggestions and not just in one big burst for this revamp?[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]I would love to help with the transition as well, I still consider myself a noob but I hope helping converting tutorials across will increase my knowledge base XD[/FONT]
  • Eric Chadwick
    Thanks for the kind words, and good suggestions. We're looking into options. First will probably be a conversion to MediaWiki. Then later maybe another system if we find something better.

    crestas69, I think most of your suggestions are there in MediaWiki, so we'll just inherit them for free. Login to MediaWiki to check them out.

    We talked about other ideas, maybe a WordPress kind of site where people would use GitHub to submit content, to be curated, something like code reviews. I thought that might be a bit more hassle than artists would be willing to put up with. Anyone here use GitHub? Maybe you can evangelize.

    One thing we've been able to do so far (most of the time) is to moderate the wiki content to make sure you get accurate info. I see the wiki as a filtering of forum threads, not the same kind of freewheeling content. The Forum is where people hash out ideas, thrash around until they figure out what's true. The wiki IMHO should be where we put the distilled knowledge.

    I don't know how that will work in the future, unless experienced users are involved more frequently to police the content. We will just have to try it out, see how it goes.

    As for summaries and ratings, that will be up to the users to make. There is a Mediawiki extension for ratings, we might install it. Here's a wiki that uses it... http://www.wiki4games.com/F.E.A.R. (rating is down on the right side)

    I won't make this thread a sticky though. Too many of those already! Just search for "wiki".
  • throttlekitty
    I wouldn't suggest adding GitHub as a layer to getting wiki content in. Looks like Mediawiki has an Extension that would be much better for everyone. I've used GitHub but not as an advanced user, so from my POV someone would be endlessly merging forked submissions and/or diffing between edits and cherrypicking text for final drafts. They have a project named Gollum you may want to look at.

    Have you had much vandalism on the Polycount wiki?
  • Eric Chadwick
    GitHub was suggested as an alternative, plugging into something like Jekyll or Octopress. Not connected to a wiki at all. Will have a look at Gollum, thanks!

    We used to have a huge spammer problem, before we gated registrations. I would love to connect editing privileges to one's status on the Forum, but that would require a bit of custom coding to tie the Forum db to the wiki system. Anyone up for this task?
  • cheeseplus
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    cheeseplus admin
    AYO

    So I've long known how terrible the wiki performs from watching the server stats but thus far any attempts to "fix" MoinMoin have been met with terrifying amounts of frustration. Furthermore, MoinMoin is a steaming pile of shit in every way imaginable. So.....

    We're gonna burn it down.

    Ok, so not entirely raze and burn since we can do an import of most of the content. The downside is that lots of links and all images/attachements are pretty much broken. I could invest time trying to unfuck the mess or perl that the conversion script is written in or we could just move on and in the process of fixing up the wiki take care of lots of cruft while we have some momentum.

    I've built us a lovely little cookbook (Chef for those sysadmin/devops minded) that stands up MediaWiki in under 7 minutes and have been playing around with the import but we are about ready to push this up to the internet alongside the current wiki, something like http://newwiki.polycount.com, and then we can go nuts on transferring content.

    Sound good? If so stop editing content - there isn't an elegant way to lock the old wiki - and I'll make the machinations to get the newwiki live and stuff. I can create admin accounts for what I'm calling "Wiki Team Alpha" and we can start dragging ourselves into the 21st century.

    Benefits of mediawiki:
    - Not a steaming pile of shit
    - PLUGINS!!
    - Creative Commons Licensing on pages (I like licensing so shutup)
    - Easier to scale than Python (php/mysql/apache/memached)
    - will generally be easier to integrate with EVERYTHING

    Anything GitHub based, while prettier and nicer from an editorial standpoint is not really attractive for our audience. I mean I think it would be hot shit but I also don't make art daily and think git is sensible so MediaWiki, while still a wiki, is the best tool for not just the job but our community.
  • Eric Chadwick
    We can re-upload the images. It is an art-centric wiki, so that may take quite a bit of work, but then it will be much better than it is now.

    Do it!!

    gerrkid.gif
  • cheeseplus
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    cheeseplus admin
    The script knows the mapping of attachments to page but at some point whatever calls it was using to connect to mediawiki for uploading have broken. I'd love to fix it but it feels like fixing the images manually and also doing some general house cleaning will do us a bit of good. Mentioned in almost every conversion article I read - "we only need to do this once"
  • cheeseplus
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    cheeseplus admin
    Progress update: Fixing some of the more obscure formatting conversion problems still seems to require a level 80 Perl Sorcerer but I have found a way to bulk upload all the attachments which is nice. Most links to images will have to be cleaned up as they broke in a few different ways but at least we don't have to upload them by hand.
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