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Is automatic 3D sofware anything to worry about?

Hey everyone,

I have seen more and more automatic 3D software popping up? At the moment it is fairly early stages but is this anything to worry about in terms of replacing jobs?

I understand there will always be a place for original art style but surely big studios will jump on this type of software to cut costs?



http://youtu.be/7ryRSspZlrQ

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  • Neox
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    Neox veteran polycounter
    we are still far, far, far away from automatic solutions to gameready assets. it might happen at one point. And to be honest it makes the most sense for recreating realistic objects. But even then there are plenty of cases where scanning will not work. unless you want a game built just from existing pieces of course.

    that said, this video is so full of fancy sounding blabla. nothing to be worried about.
  • Anchang-Style
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    Anchang-Style polycounter lvl 7
    I mean sure you get nice assets out of photometry, but you need the pictures (ofcourse). So you are basically limited to whatever exists in reality or have to fumble with your assets created by photometry that you could have created them from 0 anyway. Sure Ubi spend a year for Notre Dame, because it's such a hero piece for paris, necessary pictures to use phometry for certain areas would have a) been of the current state and b) impposible to take due to limitations of access, time or whatever. In the end sitting in an office and creating assets to spec via Sculpting and modelling app might be fast than travelling, taking pictures creating the assets via software and retopo the whole thing.
    Then again i might be totally wrong and photometry is god speaking through us in software code.
  • Neox
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    Neox veteran polycounter
    i would like to see the scanner mounted to a helicopter or drone or something to scan the outside of notre dame in any way thats not totally noisy :D
  • brianmac90
    Always great to get someone else’s response cause it's interesting and I think there is some very valid point. I suppose you can't 30 pictures of a dragon because they don't exist. :poly121:

    It seems as more of a helper tool rather than a hindrance for simple environment assets
  • Higuy
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    Higuy polycounter lvl 9
    Its cool that the team behind Vanishing of Ethan Carter used that technology, but even then they had to take a lot of time to clean everything up. Its not "fully" automatic, and yeah, nothing to really worry about any time soon really.
  • KurtR
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    KurtR polycounter lvl 7
    Taken the time creating a piece of work these day's, at least high quality work, some automation will probably give room for more creative freedom and less constraints on the technical aspects of the job. I think that part of it is a good direction. But if it would take over for the individual learning curve of pulling those shapes out, I think we as artists would loose a lot of knowledge that automation can't bring us personally. The ability to see shapes within in our minds, and that is a nice journey in itself that also is very healthy for the mind.

    But if we look at photoshop as an example. There's so much automated work for photography within in it these days, but still you see those taking their work seriously willing to pull those curves around and blend manually layers, controlling the tonal values down to the finest values, instead of slapping on a preset. I think this is where 3D will be as well. If you take it seriously you will always honor the craft by knowing the ins and outs of it and go in manually to get the look you want to achive.
  • iconoplast
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    iconoplast polycounter lvl 13
    Here's a list of things that were really worrisome to people when technologies were new, all off of the top of my head: writing and literacy were going to ruin the ability to remember things (surviving ancient Greek writings talk about that, I assume it goes back further), the printing press was going to ruin writing as well as having images in books, music recordings would kill all interest in live performances and live music in general, calculators would remove all math skills, computers will ruin literacy, video games would obliterate board games/card games/etc., movies would kill the theater, televisions would ruin books/theater/movies/etc., photographs would destroy drawing and painting...

    I think we'll be fine. =)
  • antweiler
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    antweiler polycounter lvl 8
    Whether automatic modeling tools, online rigging and animation solutions, outsourcing and model/texture databases, are useful or not is one question. For sure, they will enable our bosses and clients to pressure our wages further down, especially, where top quality is not the first priority over cheapness. This applies as well for other industries.
  • Amsterdam Hilton Hotel
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    Amsterdam Hilton Hotel insane polycounter
    antweiler wrote: »
    For sure, they will enable our bosses and clients to pressure our wages further down, especially, where top quality is not the first priority over cheapness. This applies as well for other industries.
    Wages per asset ought to drop with better technology and workflows, but games still have huge content requirements which are inflating all the time. Automation usually lets workers either accomplish more in the same timeframe or else spend more time at a high level (working on scene composition instead of handmaking props for ex) so it's hard to see tools like this denting the value of a professional artist.
  • artquest
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    artquest polycounter lvl 13
    Wages per asset ought to drop with better technology and workflows, but games still have huge content requirements which are inflating all the time. Automation usually lets workers either accomplish more in the same timeframe or else spend more time at a high level (working on scene composition instead of handmaking props for ex) so it's hard to see tools like this denting the value of a professional artist.

    Agreed. To be honest I welcome automation. Some of the most beautiful art in Brave was created proceduraly by artists using systems and algorithms. Check it out here:

    http://www.cgw.com/Publications/CGW/2012/Volume-35-Issue-4-June-July-2012/The-Royal-Treatment.aspx

    Don't make the mistake of not accepting change. The term artist may go out of style but human creativity will not. Don't forget this! And absolutely do not allow anyone to push down wages for doing a creative job. Remember value is perceived. For a culture of people obsessed with creating images, we all to often forget our own image as professionals.
  • Mark Dygert
    Considering most people here are at the start of their careers and that they will be working for the next 30-40 years I wouldn't say its out of the realm of possibility that some people will have to change and adapt, that's just how things go. We have a lot less blacksmiths now a days than we used to...

    In the short term is it going to replace artists? Maybe some, but I really don't see it as a game changer. Artists are hired because they are creative and create and invent things that don't exist. There is also the limitations of scanning like others have talked about. It's not just is it capable, but is it financially viable to work that way.
  • Neox
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    Neox veteran polycounter
    I wouldn't say its out of the realm of possibility that some people will have to change and adapt, that's just how things go.

    just look back 10 years, zbrush was barely usable for anything but weird 2.5d illustrations until some people realized you can deform their weird 3d brushes inside the app

    change is good, you constantly have to adapt and invent

    i certainly do not miss the times when unwrapping a character took longer than modelling it, due to the lack of proper tools and needing to EVERY SINGLE VERTEX by hand.
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    With the photogrammetry in Vanishing of Ethan Carter, is there any reflections or specular highlights? It always looks very overcast when I've seen footage of the game. Very diffused and no harsh lighting.
  • skankerzero
  • repete
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    repete polycounter lvl 6
    Same debate/worries flying around about 10 years ago regarding sampling instruments on gearslutz: The answer is a simple NO

    It's impossible to recreate the nuances that a musician creates whilst playing an instrument, remember the old saying "the devil is in the details" it's the same for art and ok we might have the ability within the next decade to recreate any object from 2d photos into 3d but it wont be the same because of the nuances. It's the artist's touch that make or breaks the immersion and that's my way of thinking about it. Put like this we could ask every one on polycount to make a simple crate, I can guarantee you that the majority will look the same but the most experienced and not forgetting talented artists amongst us will shine because of the nuances. The same goes for a musical phrase, most musicians will recreate the phrase with their sample library but the guy/girl with 15 plus years behind the cello will shine.
    a subtle difference in or shade of meaning, expression, or sound
  • Aabel
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    Aabel polycounter lvl 6
    Agisoft is great. However it doesn't magically make everything adhere to art direction.
  • ZeroNight
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    ZeroNight polycounter lvl 5
    I can see it making the workflow easier for some projects, but there will never be a tool that can recreate an artist's aesthetic choices, scene composition, and lighting without human interaction. As much as people claim otherwise, most games and projects don't focus on 100% photorealism, and you need an artist to be there to make the decision on how to inject style into the scene.
  • LMP
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    LMP polycounter lvl 13
    Robots will be able to do what we do... eventually... replacing us anytime soon? Probably not.
  • KurtR
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    KurtR polycounter lvl 7
    repete wrote: »
    It's impossible to recreate the nuances that a musician creates whilst playing an instrument

    Great example. I think they actually wrote this algorithm that analyzed the classics and could compute "perfect pieces" based on lot of key variables, but it never came out as anything special. I can't remember who did this experiment though.
  • Equanim
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    Equanim polycounter lvl 11
    I think it'll change the industry in that using scanned assets as a base will be common place. Graphic design, photography, and even illustration entered that phase a long time ago and are all alive and well.
  • Sage
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    Sage polycounter lvl 19
    It will just be another tool artist can take advantage of. The guy in the video doesn't understand the restrictions game developers face when making games, or the issues photographers face when making good pictures. Because of that the assumptions he made in the video are false. He implied how easy it all will be. I loved when he says all you have to do now is go take pictures of the objects you want in a game. Because that is super easy to do in practice and not expensive at all. An what if the object doesn't exist... There is no make art button. Have you ever hired a photographer? Their services are pretty expensive.
  • Anchang-Style
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    Anchang-Style polycounter lvl 7
    I mean rather than photometric, 3d scanning is a more usable tool as it seems. I feel like i read a lot about companies creating complexe assets by hand and 3d scanning them to get all the little stuff in. Also 3d scanning seems to be used big time more and more for face scanning. But still it just changes the workplace but doesn't make people obscolete since it won't magically make assets low poly, normal mapped, cleaned up, PBR read and inengine.
  • teaandcigarettes
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    teaandcigarettes polycounter lvl 12
    The thing is that even with artwork created using procedural or automated methods it is still necessary for the person in charge of it to have an artistic eye. Having a person with an understanding of what looks good and why is not something that we will be able to replace any time soon. Even if asset creation becomes automated, putting things together in a visually pleasing way will require the human talent.

    The cinema for example never had to chase photo-realism. You could simply collect a bunch of real-world objects, put them together, get some actors and shoot a movie. But that alone is not enough to make a pleasing image. Things such as choice of locations, lighting, composition, choosing the right clothes for the actors, camera angles and multitude of other artistic decisions will always make some images better than others. There are reasons why certain scenes have become iconic, while other were quickly forgotten.
  • repete
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    repete polycounter lvl 6
    :poly122:


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_aLU-NOdHM"]Algorithms Are Taking Over The World: Christopher Steiner at TEDxOrangeCoast - YouTube[/ame]

    food for thought but I don't agree that algorithms will replace human nuances !
  • Neox
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    Neox veteran polycounter
    at one point they MIGHT, would be one of the next possible evolutional steps. sure we will not like that :P
  • StephenVyas
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    StephenVyas polycounter lvl 18
    As said before, one problem with cookie cutter content is that it still needs to be cleaned up.

    An even bigger problem for the developers that use this is trying to maintain a brand or something that sets them apart when everyone and anyone can produce the same.
  • Neox
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    Neox veteran polycounter
    As said before, one problem with cookie cutter content is that it still needs to be cleaned up.

    An even bigger problem for the developers that use this is trying to maintain a brand or something that sets them apart when everyone and anyone can produce the same.

    that argument doesn't work, just check out film its "photoreal" or filmreal for decades and there are plenty of things that set them apart. I guess an more evened out playground for realistic games could help focus on the games, i fear this will not happen, but at least one can hope :D
  • StephenVyas
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    StephenVyas polycounter lvl 18
    (To clarify) :: Which is why Artists are still needed to help differentiate the content being pumped out by automated software.
  • Joel Gafford
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    Joel Gafford polycounter lvl 9
    Anything that can be logically broken down into a process a computer program can understand and replicate will one day be entirely in the domain of automation in my opinion.

    What robots will never be able to achieve is the level of emotional depth the human soul can produce in a piece of art.

    But robots will no doubt try to mimic the soul, and the scary part is... I think we're fast approaching the day when "Joe Gamer" won't notice the distinction or care in the slightest.
  • SecretPro
    (To clarify) :: Which is why Artists are still needed to help differentiate the content being pumped out by automated software.


    I agree with this, this is more factual:

    Which is why a lot Less Artist are still needed.

    Lets face it, having an AI do our work is still a few years to a few decades away from happening. But what we are seeing which is great and bad is the evolution of the tools.

    Myself and many can agree tools are great they give freedom to the ARTIST. Yes that is true, but they also slowly kill our technical skill set. Lets be honest, before if you knew how to model it was something a few folks can do, to the point were you needed a phd to even perform these practices. Now anyone can do it, which is great but like we learned in history over saturation kills value. This not only impacts our value(salary, perception, etc) but also our opportunities. You still need artist, but you need less and less.

    I think it'll change the industry in that using scanned assets as a base will be common place. Graphic design, photography, and even illustration entered that phase a long time ago and are all alive and well.

    First off no offense to any folks in these fields, but I seriously hope 3D doesn't land in that same category. Yes they survived but they got hit really hard, and still getting hit harder. Hard to make a living as a photographer let along support a family.
  • Amsterdam Hilton Hotel
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    Amsterdam Hilton Hotel insane polycounter
    SecretPro wrote: »
    Now anyone can do it, which is great but like we learned in history over saturation kills value. This not only impacts our value(salary, perception, etc) but also our opportunities. You still need artist, but you need less and less.
    And yet game budgets keep increasing despite better automation tools every year. The art you need for a game isn't constant, as technology improves so do expectations. The industry needs more artists now than ever despite tools like DDO being viral atm.
  • SecretPro
    And yet game budgets keep increasing despite better automation tools every year. The art you need for a game isn't constant, as technology improves so do expectations. The industry needs more artists now than ever despite tools like DDO being viral atm.


    First off artist do not just mean 3D artist, there are very few in house character and animators now a days. Also an increase in budget can relate to a longer time frame, a more thought out pre-production, mistakes, etc.

    A lot of studios have trimmed the fat and resulted in less in house staff, but outsourcing has become the go to option.
  • Neox
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    Neox veteran polycounter
    SecretPro wrote: »
    A lot of studios have trimmed the fat and resulted in less in house staff, but outsourcing has become the go to option.

    yes please
  • Mask_Salesman
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    Mask_Salesman polycounter lvl 13
    Content-Aware Fill! OMG Run for the hills!!
  • brianmac90
    Great to see the topic get so much discussion. I think most important is to be aware of change. This is so artist can adapt and change with the times and the software. Where there is change there is always fear. If we are given quicker means to content creation we still have the power to be highly artistic and creative but at a faster pace. It allows creativity to have no limits and boundries. but how it effects jobs is stilll up for debate I think

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU

    This guy on youtube makes some good points about automation taking over jobs in general.
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