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Official handplane support thread - Now freeware!!

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  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    I don't really follow what you are saying in the last post but- Just because a normal map is multicolored does not make it a world or object space map. If you rotate the shading on a tangent space map 90 degrees you will get a non blue normal map. In your case it sounds like you just need to set handplanes input maps to "auto detect". If you are getting odd colors in your tangent space map on particular shells you should try resetting transforms, and then carefully looking at how the light reacts to your model when using your world space map. If you world space map has rotated or flipped shading, the tangent space map made from handplane will also have rotated shading. Often these issues come about from messy workflows when working with mirrored or repeated geometry.

    Also, what kind of seams are you getting in unity? Unity in forward mode will always show some light shading seams. You can test this in unity by loading a blank normal map (solid 128,128, 255). Deferred lighting + handplane will give you zero shading errors and essentially no seams (very very light, this is just a reality of using normal maps).


    Edit:
    What object format are you using? I think I understand your issue now. You are sending an OBJ out of max but when you baked to object space you got rotated shading. This is because obj wont pass object transforms. Generally you want to use fbx files with object space maps. If you are using obj files world space will produce the correct result since world space ignores transforms entirely.
  • sogun
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    sogun polycounter lvl 17
    Unity 4.2.1f4 free, forward rendering.

    Contestants:
    - 3dsMax tangent space Green Up (green channel flipped)
    - Handplane: fed with 3dsmax worldspace normal map
    - Farfarers TUnitySpace

    This is the unwrap, single island, done in Max with really minimal distortion, one face has some slightly visible stretching when viewed with a checker. Deliberately cut more seams.
    aq1r.jpg


    Here are the results:



    Handplane:


    hxrc.jpg
    z8w8.jpg


    Farfarers UnityTSpace:

    j6qk.jpg


    3dsMax:

    yp4w.jpg


    All these are small seams, I think, and they are only visible when zoomed in:

    4out.jpg6c1z.jpg

    When the objects are viewed in a game scene with a bird-eye camera or isometric view, the seams aren't visible. Also the color contrast is even here, possibly more color detail will lead the viewers eye away from seams:

    Zoomed out:


    yr78.jpgadj5.jpg


    In an FPS game the programmers can create proper shaders to make these seams go away, if they do, these seams aren't such a problem anymore. I think these seams are bearable. Will try a normal map generated from an FBX and post results if they are better.
  • sogun
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    sogun polycounter lvl 17
    Tried feeding a triangulated FBX to Handplane with Tangents and Binormals, smoothing groups and an object space normal map. No change in forward rendering, minimal seams are still there. Deferred possibly makes these seams go away and a specific shader geared towards this process, but I don't know how to do in the shader what Farfarer suggested. Anyway, these are good enough results for me.
  • Farfarer
    If you're using that in Unity - have you fixed the smoothing angle?
    Set Tangents and Normals to "Calculate", set Smoothing Angle to 180, set Normals to "Import" and then Tangents to "Calculate".
    There's a bug in Unity where it'll split the tangents based on the normal's Smoothing Angle value even if the mesh uses imported normals. These instructions will fix that.

    It's worth noting that the results will only be "perfect" in deferred rendering. In forward there's still some visual oddities... I've not found a good way to fix those other than converting the TS map to OS in the fragment shader and doing the lighting in object space - unfortunately that's a real pain to do efficiently or eloquently inside of surface shaders ('cause they put everything in tangent space if you use a normal map and you can't tell it not to).

    Also, my xNormal plugin and Handplane should give identical results. You can check in Photoshop if you put them on top of each other and set the blending mode of the top one to difference - the texture should end up being black (except for the padding which might be extended from the UV islands differently).
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    Sogun,
    Just to illustrate forward rendering seams in unity. Try taking a screenshot of a fourth version where the normal map is a solid 128,128,255 file. Also, when you are evaluating the quality of normal maps it is better to give it something where the normal map has to do more work. example: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWToeCw1B24"]handplane unity comparison - YouTube[/ame]
  • Farfarer
    By the way, if you're using Handplane and Unity (or my xNormal plugin) you can try this out, it'll fix up the import settings for normals and tangents on any model that Unity imports into your project.

    It beats having to set the options each time, at least...

    https://gist.github.com/Farfarer/6903839

    Note: It will do this for ALL models imported into your project. For any models already imported, right click on the asset in the Project pane and select Reimport from the menu.
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    That script is awesome James. Thanks.
  • paupau
    Hey!

    I've got a line in my tangent normal map, and I've tried to get rid of it, but I haven't got a clue what the problem is. It's baked in 3DS Max. I tried to reset the xform, triangulated before bake and export and as you can see the local/object normal map hasn't got the lines, so it seems like there's something happening when using Handplane. What do you guys think?

    68361ccc2f77e2ab4da6279eba79da60.png

    2c4678d1cf5df29d46e0e15ebdc83312.png
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    check to make sure you don't have duplicated verts very close together in the area where the error is occurring.
  • paupau
    I've already checked that and there were no duplicated verts. I used the same mesh for baking and Handplane. Since the line is not in the object/local normal map it seems like its something that happens when using Handplane. I tried to use an OBJ for Handplane and it removed the lines showed above, but introduced another error/artifact.

    763ceddbb3ec45098ae8c437dfadd2ad.png
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    email me your lowpoly along with your object space map and I will take a look. alecmoody@gmail.com And fbx of the lowpoly is best.
  • Nellopolis
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    Nellopolis polycounter lvl 4
    When baking world space normal maps, (in this case 3DSmax, but it's the case with Maya too), I had to bake at 16 bit in order to avoid the problem seen in the image below. Further, when using Hand Plane to convert the world normal to a tangent normal, I had to keep it at 16. If I let Hand Plane convert to 8 bit for me I would get the same bad result. After generating my 16 bit tangent space normal map through Hand Plane, I then used photoshop to convert to 8 bit. PS has much better supersampling as you can see. They may already be working on this, but this is one area Hand Plane can improve so others don't run into the same issue I did.handplaneVSphotoshop.jpg
  • Noors
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    Noors greentooth
    I think photoshop adds a slight noise when converting 16 to 8 bits.
  • WarrenM
    Are you sure you're just not seeing compression artifacts in the form of banding? Often a VERY light noise layer over top of the normal map will remove that...
  • Nellopolis
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    Nellopolis polycounter lvl 4
    The normal texture is not compressed in the image. The pattern is in the actual texture. I tried what you suggested on the hand plane compressed version of the normal map by adding a light noise layer and it did obscure it a little, but it's still there. I think 99% of the time this would work for most objects (like characters and such) but on smooth, shiny surfaces like a car it's very unforgiving. Photoshop does add a nice even slight noise when converting from 16 to 8 without any of the broken compression artifacts.
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 18
    Noors wrote: »
    I think photoshop adds a slight noise when converting 16 to 8 bits.

    Actually I just discovered this. IF you drag a 16bit image into an 8bit, it adds that noise. If you convert the original 16bit image into 8bit and then drag into another 8bit, you do not get that noise.

    Messed up, I know. Took me weeks of going WTF till I finally figured it out.
  • EarthQuake
    Its not noise so much as it is dithering. Theres basically two ways you can convert an image to a lower bit depth, one by simply replacing the colors with the closest value in the low bit depth, which generally results in stair stepping, and two, dithering.

    When it comes to baking 8bpc images, Max dithers and Maya doesn't, so you'll see similar differences there as well.
  • Norman3D
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    Norman3D polycounter lvl 14
    EarthQuake wrote: »
    Its not noise so much as it is dithering. Theres basically two ways you can convert an image to a lower bit depth, one by simply replacing the colors with the closest value in the low bit depth, which generally results in stair stepping, and two, dithering.

    When it comes to baking 8bpc images, Max dithers and Maya doesn't, so you'll see similar differences there as well.

    3dsMax renders images fine, it only adds dithering when saving. It's turned on by default.
    To turn the dithering off in 3dsmax go to Customize/Preferences/Rendering and uncheck the "True Color" checkbox.
  • shogunato
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    shogunato polycounter lvl 12
    Giiyom wrote: »
    Hello,

    Just can't make it work.

    I'm having this error while trying to Bake the Normal Map from HP.

    "The Object space map appears to have normals that don't match the yz flip and xy directions of the input mesh. Would you like to apply the detected settings instead?"

    And when I Click 'Yes', the given map has no information written on it at all. All channels are empty.

    Anyone know why this is happening?

    I use 3dsMax and xNormal

    Thanks!

    Same issue using maya
    Do you want to see the file ?
    thanks
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    What file format are you using to send your object into handplane?
  • shogunato
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    shogunato polycounter lvl 12
    I use fbx
    It was exported from maya 2011
  • Obi-Bram
    I have a problem that occurs when using handplane, I made normalmaps in 3DSMAX 2014 and put them together in photoshop(left image).
    But when I render out the handplane normalmap I get this (right image), what could be causing this problem?

    GDggLHi.jpg
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    Obi-bram, you have some overlapping UVs. It looks like there is a cylinder unrwap ontop of your UV sheet. Also, set handplane to auto-detect for your input settings.

    Shoganato:
    Please email me your fbx file along with your object space normals: alecmoody@gmail.com
  • Obi-Bram
    I got it working, I forgot to put z-up in my fbx settings.
    Thanks anyway.
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    I'm getting some issues generating normals for a simple mesh, the object space normal map looks good on the model, the tangents are being imported into UDK fine, but I'm getting some heavy gradients on the normal map, even on flat areas of the model that shouldn't have any issues.

    4MPihkA.png
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    I figured out it was an issue with the output settings, is anyone else having issues getting the website to load? I wanted to update to the latest release.
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    What 3d software are you using? The release online has issues for maya people. We are about to release 1.4 which should fix all of the bugs related to unreal output.

    Not sure what is going on with the website- loads here fine with a hard refresh. If anyone else is having issues please let me know.
  • GhostDetector
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    GhostDetector polycounter lvl 10
    Has anyone ever gotten an error that makes the normal a plain gray surface? I got that a couple times and I don't know how to fix it. I got it before but it seemed to fix itself.
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    If it is reproducible send me your files and I will take a look at it. Generally I just need your fbx file and object space bake. alecmoody@gmail.com
  • doc rob
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    doc rob polycounter lvl 19
    Has anyone ever gotten an error that makes the normal a plain gray surface? I got that a couple times and I don't know how to fix it. I got it before but it seemed to fix itself.

    Overlapping UVs?
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    Has anyone ever gotten an error that makes the normal a plain gray surface? I got that a couple times and I don't know how to fix it. I got it before but it seemed to fix itself.


    Hi GhostDetector, I took a close look at your model and there were a number issues. I have had a few other workshop people send me models with the same mirroring issue so I thought I would post what I found here for others to see.

    First, that obj file doesn't appear to contain smoothing information. What 3d software are you using? Use FBX if possible. If handplane isnt getting the smoothing info it can't do it's job (probably the cause of the grey map output).

    The bigger issue here is how your UVs are put together. Here is an image of where your UVs overlap:
    10c895d3a722d0805c473fd1b149ad1d.png

    Overlapping is fine but you need to offset one copy into the next UV square like this:
    86fc35ac27a54b85beb074e17ef7d7cd.png

    Also, the way you have set up this mirroring doesn't create symmetrical normals and you will never have a correct bake as a result. Overlapping UVs requires having the exact same normals on each copy. The triangulation direction of a quad matters so the normals at on each of these copies are not the same.

    Example quads- notice that the red triangulation on the flat area of the axe and the edge strip meet up:

    31e67ef38f62709d139effc961ea6a64.png

    However, if you rotate to the other side of the model you can see that they triangles do not meet:
    fd26a76721941ef8e3f61805a3e12d3d.png

    The easy solution here is to not stitch your edge polygons to the flat faces of the axe.



    Lastly here are some other issues with the model that will cause you to have problems:

    Polygons missing form handle:
    http://gyazo.com/692f02a6fe654159507de09b822de74e.png

    inverted normals on back side of axe:
    http://gyazo.com/381a227f839faf75811cae0eb39d944b.png

    Border edges/non welded areas:
    http://gyazo.com/ecdedefbcf54e60021cd35f9a1502097.png
  • Brygelsmack
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    Brygelsmack polycounter lvl 11
    Any change of CryEngine compatibility in the future?
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    Sorry, Not until crytek is willing to share information with us. We tried implementing their TB based on old documentation and it did not look good. One of their licensees also tried to get them to share info with us and it never went anywhere. The last attempt we made was a build that loaded their model files and attempted to create tangent space maps from the packaged tangent/normals- it looked really bad.

    Edit:
    It is possible that we were correctly creating their tangent space but they are doing something abnormal elsewhere in the code that makes a big impact on the result.
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    Hi Everyone,
    We made handplane a freeware tool today. When handplane 1.4 releases we will not be using the existing licensing system. For current builds I have uploaded a license file to the handplane website.
  • Eric Chadwick
    Awesome news Alec! Glad to hear this worked out so well. What's next for you?!
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    There is still more to do with handplane and Luke and I would like to develop a baking tool. I have a giant wishlist of features for a baking tool and I think that would be something others would benefit from as well.
  • LaurentiuN
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    LaurentiuN interpolator
    Very nice, we all thank you for making this tool so awesome and now freeware:D
  • Stromberg90
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    Stromberg90 polycounter lvl 11
    great news :)
    Is there any other tangent basis(es?) you would like to implement, like id tech for example ;)
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    Ultimately we would like to implement anything we can get solid documentation and support for. Very few of the engines we have added were easy to get working, even if we had good information.
  • cptSwing
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    cptSwing polycounter lvl 11
    Does OGRE use a standard tangent basis or is it up to the individual dev team to pick one?
  • Bubba91873
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    Bubba91873 polygon
    Awesome news Alec! Glad to hear this worked out so well. What's next for you?!

    AlecMoody There is still more to do with handplane and Luke and I would like to develop a baking tool. I have a giant wishlist of features for a baking tool and I think that would be something others would benefit from as well.

    A baking tool that uses material id's without having to explode meshes would be most welcome.
  • thomasp
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    thomasp hero character
    great to hear that handplane turned freeware!

    however, i seem to have a problem downloading the latest version. the link from the homepage comes back with a 404. something you are already aware of?
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    Hi Thomas,
    The link is working for me. You are clicking the blue button to download?
  • thomasp
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    thomasp hero character
    hey alex,

    thanks for the heads-up. i found out that my ad- and javascript blockers caused the issue. the link was clickable but everything afterwards turned fuzzy. normally it's pretty easy to spot the cause of website functionality failing, in this case however the 404 error threw me off.
  • 3Dyan
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    3Dyan polycounter lvl 13
    I'm trying to get a UDK map, but for some reason I keep getting artifacts like this one:
    Handplane%20Max%20to%20UDK%20issue.jpg

    I'm using max 2012 to bake the OBJSPC and an FBX file.
    The strange thing is that other target engines (like Max, Source etc...) work fine. Can anyone help?
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    I am getting ready to release handplane 1.4 which should fix that issue. It has to do with how we are reading smoothing groups out of the FBX file.
  • 3Dyan
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    3Dyan polycounter lvl 13
    That's great. Thank you!
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    We just released 1.4:
    http://handplane3d.com/handplane_1_4.rar


    Change log:
    Removed licensing system for transition to freeware

    Improved handling of smoothing groups related to Unreal Output

    Created an Xnormal plugin to bake directly into Source engine tangent space

    Created SMD importer for Xnormal

    UI Tweaks

    Video overview:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHsN2Wg-X5Y
  • 3Dyan
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    3Dyan polycounter lvl 13
    I'm afraid to report that with 1.4 I'm still seeing the hard triangulation issues when converting to UDK.
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    What do your smoothing groups look like and what FBX settings are you using? Feel free to send me the object space and FBX file to test on. alecmoody@gmail.com
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