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Pixar’s Ed Catmull Emerges As Central Figure In The Wage-Fixing Scandal

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xXm0RpH3usXx polycounter lvl 13
Did a quick search if this is already posted, didnt find anything, sry if its a double post. I thought some people might find this an interesting read:

http://www.cartoonbrew.com/business/pixars-ed-catmull-emerges-as-central-figure-in-the-wage-fixing-scandal-101362.html

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  • ExcessiveZero
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    ExcessiveZero polycounter lvl 6
    My god just read that, that is evil, on so many levels.
  • katana
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    katana polycounter lvl 14
    Oligarch's.....
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    What a dick, I can never use Catmull–Clark subdivision again.
  • beefaroni
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    beefaroni sublime tool
    Man......

    Edit: I hope this makes it's way into the Wiki page..
  • J0NNYquid
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    J0NNYquid polycounter lvl 5
    What word do you even use to describe this. Disgusting? That's the first thing that comes to mind. Despicable? Disgustingly despicable? I just bought his book Creativity, Inc., was actually super excited to read it. Now.....
  • Ruz
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    Ruz polycount lvl 666
    the first word comes to my mind is expected:/
    he should be renamed to 'dick clark'
  • Mstankow
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    Mstankow polycounter lvl 11
    It breaks my heart to know Lasseter is involved.
  • meshiah
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    meshiah polycounter lvl 17
    not suprising, but good to see some light on it, hope it gets some momentum.. got some vfx peeps that are really feeling the bullshit. wonder to what extent this is happening in games, and if not now, when? what scares me is how passive the people in teh games industry have been. the softest of the creatives ive seen.

    i cannot seem to wrap my head around unions and weather they would be beneficial in this industry or not.
  • Super
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    Super polycounter lvl 18
    This should be getting more exposure. Appalling.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    brings to mind that blog that dug through pay records for visa workers in the VFX industry revealing that Pixar pays the lowest. I'm surprised Dreamworks is involved, apparently they have a studio that's mostly union workers and another that's non union, the union studio had higher pay so I'd hazard to guess they pulled that shit on the non union studio. Don't elevate workplaces to heroes.
  • artquest
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    artquest polycounter lvl 13
    I read a ton of articles on this yesterday... it was so depressing and It really hit me hard.

    Read at your own risk of depression...http://pando.com/tag/techtopus/ (tons of really great articles on the subject here)

    Apparently the problem spreads across almost every tech company in the bay area. Apparently our old friend George Lucas is involved too. On top of that

    I didn't realize this but... Disney didn't buy star wars, Lucas practically bought Disney. He "gave" them lucasfilm in exchange for becoming the second largest living shareholder in Disney. The first largest is the estate of Steve Jobs.
  • mats effect
    Really upsetting to read about some of the people involved with this.
  • low odor
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    low odor polycounter lvl 17
    Ruz wrote: »
    the first word comes to my mind is expected:/
    he should be renamed to 'dick clark'

    HA!
  • Mark Dygert
    That was pretty light on proof and pretty heavy on pitchforks and torches. I need to see more info before I head down the metaphorical hardware store for some metaphorical rope.

    I've got some reading to do...
  • vargatom
    You call all those emails light on proof? Interesting...
  • aesir
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    aesir polycounter lvl 18
    Yea, the emails were clear. Unless the emails are fake? But considering there's been a class action lawsuit which they LOST, I think it's pretty clear it's true.
  • artquest
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    artquest polycounter lvl 13
    That was pretty light on proof and pretty heavy on pitchforks and torches. I need to see more info before I head down the metaphorical hardware store for some metaphorical rope.

    I've got some reading to do...

    Check out the link I posted. They go pretty deep into the matter from many angles. The emails are very telling.

    I'll re-post a few of the emails here for ease of reading.
    From: Ed Catmull

    To: Cook, Dick

    Sent: Sun Jan 14 2007

    Subject: Zemeckis

    Dick,

    Regardless of what John thinks about motion capture, we have a serious problem brewing.

    The HR folks from the CG studios had their annual get together in the bay area last week. At that time, we learned that the company that Zemeckis is setting up in San Rafael has hired several people away from Dreamworks at a substantial salary increase….

    I know that Zemeckis’ company will not target Pixar, however, by offering higher salaries to grow at the rate they desire, people will hear about it and leave. We have avoided wars up in Norther [sic] California because all of the companies up here – Pixar, ILM [Lucasfilm], Dreamworks, and couple of smaller places – have conscientiously avoided raiding each other.

    At the very least, I would like the kind of relationship that Pixar has with Disney in that people cannot be considered to move back and forth. However, even raiding other studios has very bad long term consequences [i.e., drives up wages and hurts profits—M.A.]

    To which Disney’s chairman replied:
    “I agree. We will reaffirm our position again. As for Pixar or Disney, they absolutely know they are off limits.”

    link to article:
    http://pando.com/2014/07/07/revealed-court-docs-show-role-of-pixar-and-dreamworks-animation-in-silicon-valley-wage-fixing-cartel/
  • vargatom
    Not trying to play devil's advocate here, but I'd like to remind everyone that Ed Catmull's boss from the very beginning (since the eighties) was Steve Jobs. I know there's a cult about the guy, and his premature death was a tragic event, but let's not forget what he was like.

    I mean the guy started by ripping off his first business partner Steve Wozniak about the Atari deal. He denied being the father of his daughter for decades. He bought and then killed off Shake, the industry standard compositing software. He was by all accounts pretty much a tyrant at Apple. And the list could go on and on.

    So Catmull was probably following orders to a great deal, instructed by Jobs on how to act. And as Pixar has originally been the CG division of ILM, his previous boss was George Lucas himself, the man who has first offered these university researchers the chance to make their dream of a computer animated movie a reality. He really had no choice but to play along.

    Now I don't mean to say that this should relieve him from all that he's done; the emails suggest that he was committed to this stuff, and by quite a lot. But he was not the one who came up with the policy itself. Also there's a lot of psychological research on how people will react in these situations and it would take a really strong personality to stand up against it. Lasseter is obviously involved as well, but he was not the boss either so the same may apply to some extent.

    So let's not make them the chief culprit here; this was started by Lucas and Jobs and Katzenberg. Their names should be in the thread's title first.
  • Mstankow
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    Mstankow polycounter lvl 11
    I definitely agree with this being a bit time Steve Job's fault. I mean go back to when he was still alive on the board of Disney and Bob Iger mentions Disney taking a lot of Job's business practices to heart.
  • vargatom
    Some other things to keep in mind...

    Profit margins on CG work in California are very, very low nowadays and they've been declining for quite a long time. London and Vancouver and Montreal have been introducing serious tax breaks to draw away movie VFX work and studios had to bid for jobs that kept getting bigger and bigger after the contract was signed. If wages were not capped, a LOT more people would have lost their jobs years ago.

    On the other hand, box office is actually a fraction of the income from such IPs. The Cars franchise made several times as much money, something like 4-7 billion, on merchandising and theme parks and such. Same goes for Shrek and other Dreamworks movies. So these CG feature studios were actually making a lot of money and I kinda doubt that the people doing the groundwork have seen percentages from that source of income.

    Also note that this practice was not kept in the CG/VFX circles either. Jobs has been strongarming other tech companies like Google or Palm, to various levels of success. Palm doesn't even exist anymore.

    We all know about the unimaginable pile of cash that Apple's sitting on. Their new futuristic office building space station doesn't even make a dent in it.

    The US is called a haven for innovation and enterprises. And it's for a good reason, it really is a huge driving force and will probably remain so for a long time; China cannot compete and even South Korea has far too many limitations. So I'd like to see these companies pay for what they've done mostly because the world just can't afford to lose faith in that. I mean look at Elon Musk as an example and tell me that this guy could have done such things in any other country. We cannot go forward without people like that guy...
  • aesir
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    aesir polycounter lvl 18
    Profit margins ARE NOT very low. As you said the cars franchise has made them BILLIONS. BILLIONS. The movie only cost millions to make. That's a lot of extra billions to go around.

    Also, Jobs was definitely involved in this. I saw another e-mail where he talked about getting a recruiter fired for trying to recruit from his company. And the recruiter's boss actually fired him on Job's orders. A person in an entirely different company!

    The deck is stacked against us. Don't pretend there's no money in it for us, because there is. A shitfuckton of money.
  • vargatom
    VFX is struggling in California. ILM is like the only one of the old time studios still standing, and even they have opened shops in London and Vancouver. What about Digital Domain, Rythm and Hues, or the smaller shops? I mean damn it, R&H went broke while winning the damn Oscar for Life of Pi! Their part in this thing can be justified to some level.

    The CG feature studios on the other hand, not so much.
  • aesir
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    aesir polycounter lvl 18
    vargatom wrote: »
    VFX is struggling in California. ILM is like the only one of the old time studios still standing, and even they have opened shops in London and Vancouver. What about Digital Domain, Rythm and Hues, or the smaller shops? I mean damn it, R&H went broke while winning the damn Oscar for Life of Pi! Their part in this thing can be justified to some level.

    The CG feature studios on the other hand, not so much.

    Oh no doubt, VFX is struggling, but pixar and dreamworks are making BANK.
  • vargatom
    Agreed already...
    The CG feature studios on the other hand, not so much.
  • artquest
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    artquest polycounter lvl 13
    vargatom wrote: »
    VFX is struggling in California. ILM is like the only one of the old time studios still standing, and even they have opened shops in London and Vancouver. What about Digital Domain, Rythm and Hues, or the smaller shops? I mean damn it, R&H went broke while winning the damn Oscar for Life of Pi! Their part in this thing can be justified to some level.

    The CG feature studios on the other hand, not so much.

    Life if Pi took 120 million to create. It made over 500 million worldwide. So please tell me. How are profit margins low? Meanwhile R&H goes out of business. Lets not pretend that there isn't any money. People need to start asking where all the money is going.
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    artquest wrote: »
    Life if Pi took 120 million to create. It made over 500 million worldwide. So please tell me. How are profit margins low? Meanwhile R&H goes out of business. Lets not pretend that there isn't any money. People need to start asking where all the money is going.

    It's very well documented where the money goes:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_accounting

    4774091502_d4084b2720_b.jpg
    http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/09/how-hollywood-accounting-can-make-a-450-million-movie-unprofitable/245134/
  • vargatom
    Pi made money for the studio, but R&H did not get to see much of it. I'm talking about the margins of the VFX studios and not about the big movie dogs. VFX money goes to the lowest bidder and even then they get busted. There was a time when producers were saying they're not doing their job right if at least one of the contractors does not go out of business. Higher wages would've only accelerated that process.

    The whole thing is really a big mess right now. The tax breaks in Canada will run out sooner or later and the movie studios will start to look for another place - and some country will accommodate them. I'm on the CG Pro mailing list and this is a big topic all the time. The other shoe is going to drop pretty soon, one way or the other; and this mess is certainly play a part in it.
  • artquest
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    artquest polycounter lvl 13
    vargatom wrote: »
    Pi made money for the studio, but R&H did not get to see much of it. I'm talking about the margins of the VFX studios and not about the big movie dogs. VFX money goes to the lowest bidder and even then they get busted. There was a time when producers were saying they're not doing their job right if at least one of the contractors does not go out of business. Higher wages would've only accelerated that process.

    The whole thing is really a big mess right now. The tax breaks in Canada will run out sooner or later and the movie studios will start to look for another place - and some country will accommodate them. I'm on the CG Pro mailing list and this is a big topic all the time. The other shoe is going to drop pretty soon, one way or the other; and this mess is certainly play a part in it.

    That's the point though, profit margins are artificially low for vfx studios. This needs to stop! I've been keeping up with it every since R&H went out of business too (as a retaliative newcomer to the industry I wish people had told me before I paid a ton of money to go to college to learn 3d). It's a terrible situation for everyone involved.

    My heart really goes out to all the people who do this amazing work and then get the shaft. I really hope the industry stabilizes soon.

    My wife and I are constantly worried that this industry is going to collapse. It's not a very good situation to be in for any of us. :(
  • Mstankow
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    Mstankow polycounter lvl 11
    Well keep in mind Disney has been doing very well the last few years. I mean they have been making record profits the last few years. The 9 million dollar fine they would get would do nothing. They would probably be fine even with a 30 billion dollar fine. I bet the price fixing has a lot to do with those record profits though.
  • GarageBay9
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    GarageBay9 polycounter lvl 13
    Mstankow wrote: »
    Well keep in mind Disney has been doing very well the last few years. I mean they have been making record profits the last few years. The 9 million dollar fine they would get would do nothing. They would probably be fine even with a 30 billion dollar fine. I bet the price fixing has a lot to do with those record profits though.

    I would like to see all the companies implicated be fined the entirety of the suppressed wages.

    Plus interest.

    Would it destroy a lot of them? Maybe. Would I cry? Nope. Don't break the damn law if the punishment is that nasty.
  • Makkon
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    Makkon polycounter
    I feel sick. Stories like this make me lose hope. What am I doing with my life if I'm just going to be kicked around and strung along with a carrot by wealthy, lying scumbags all my career? This perilous house of cards is starting to collapse under it's own weight, and I don't want to be part of the stack when it gives.

    Maybe I should be a freelance illustrator.
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    Mstankow wrote: »
    Well keep in mind Disney has been doing very well the last few years. I mean they have been making record profits the last few years. The 9 million dollar fine they would get would do nothing. They would probably be fine even with a 30 billion dollar fine. I bet the price fixing has a lot to do with those record profits though.

    the thing to bear in mind here is that Disney is an umbrella term used to cover the entire company. that includes their parks, merchandise, movie studio, and more which are all separate entities.

    it's absolutely possible, in fact i almost guarantee that the movie studio shows a loss on its revenue report for any given movie, while "the big D" manages to show a huge profit.
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    Makkon wrote: »
    I feel sick. Stories like this make me lose hope. What am I doing with my life if I'm just going to be kicked around and strung along with a carrot by wealthy, lying scumbags all my career? This perilous house of cards is starting to collapse under it's own weight, and I don't want to be part of the stack when it gives.

    Maybe I should be a freelance illustrator.

    Welcome to capitalism! a lot of people are under the mistaken (by design) idea that just because they live in a capitalist state, that they are capitalists.

    None of us are, we are the workforce that are owned by capitalists. We are capital, and we are used/abused as such.
  • weee
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    weee polycounter lvl 3
    it is no surprise the whole industry is like that,
    it is no surprise Pixar ain't rose garden and candy land,
    it is, however, still disappointing to see Catmull is behind all this.
  • GarageBay9
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    GarageBay9 polycounter lvl 13
    Welcome to capitalism! a lot of people are under the mistaken (by design) idea that just because they live in a capitalist state, that they are capitalists.

    None of us are, we are the workforce that are owned by capitalists. We are capital, and we are used/abused as such.

    No, we do not have capitalism and haven't for decades. We have corporatism, one of the pillars of fascism.

    Wall Street hides behind the term capitalism because American society historically respects that term and tends not to chase them down as a result. Socialists (currently, the DNC) misconstrue the awful parts of what we have as "capitalism" in order to discredit actual capitalism, because they prefer an entirely different model (centrally planned economics).

    Anybody in America talking about capitalism who is involved with a business larger than a lemonade stand is badly misinformed or being deliberately dishonest.
  • Laughing_Bun
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    Laughing_Bun polycounter lvl 15
    I worked in the slot game industry for a while and all the Big companies out there in Vegas (IGT,WMS,Ballys,Etc) had Non-compete agreements with each other. They wouldn't hire employees who were working at other studios unless they had been gone for an extended period of time. The purpose was to try to curb the competition a little bit, which I am sure affected wages.

    Aside from being "out in the open" about it, isn't this essentially the same thing?
  • cptSwing
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    cptSwing polycounter lvl 11
    GarageBay9 wrote: »
    No, we do not have capitalism and haven't for decades. We have corporatism, one of the pillars of fascism.

    Wall Street hides behind the term capitalism because American society historically respects that term and tends not to chase them down as a result. Socialists (currently, the DNC) misconstrue the awful parts of what we have as "capitalism" in order to discredit actual capitalism, because they prefer an entirely different model (centrally planned economics).

    Anybody in America talking about capitalism who is involved with a business larger than a lemonade stand is badly misinformed or being deliberately dishonest.

    Yeah no. Exchange & accumulation of commodities produced through wage labour via privately owned means of production = capitalism. There are obviously flavors du jour.
  • Blaizer
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    Blaizer interpolator
    These "bad guys" derserve a huge punishment. they should go to hell.

    This is shameful, outrageous.
  • SnowInChina
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    SnowInChina interpolator
    well, thats not really news..
    everything is going to shit, its worse than in the dark ages
  • valuemeal
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    valuemeal polycounter lvl 6
    Why is anyone surprised?
    I knew Disney was crooked since I was 14 this just proves that pixar is the same.
    Disney inspired woodland fellows, with the elitism need to realize this?
  • Muzzoid
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    Muzzoid polycounter lvl 10
    This is goddamn depressing. If the supposed best in industry treats that label as something to abuse, they don't deserve it.

    This has far reaching effects far past the cartel itself. Why does a smaller animation studio have to pay well if Pixar is paying their people like garbage?

    Though i will say this, the fact that the wages were kept artificially low as opposed to it being a natural state of being low is better as it means that wages do indeed have a natural equilibrium sitting higher. (not saying this is a good thing AT all btw, just it's good that the pay average should be higher than it is. )
  • skyline5gtr
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    skyline5gtr polycounter lvl 9
    GarageBay9 wrote: »
    No, we do not have capitalism and haven't for decades. We have corporatism, one of the pillars of fascism.

    Wall Street hides behind the term capitalism because American society historically respects that term and tends not to chase them down as a result. Socialists (currently, the DNC) misconstrue the awful parts of what we have as "capitalism" in order to discredit actual capitalism, because they prefer an entirely different model (centrally planned economics).

    Anybody in America talking about capitalism who is involved with a business larger than a lemonade stand is badly misinformed or being deliberately dishonest.

    QFT
  • Rory_M
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    Rory_M polycounter lvl 10
    wow, i had no idea. This story is really important to the entertainment industry, I wish it was getting more play. Maybe if Kim Kardashian was somehow involved. Or grumpy cat?
  • Dataday
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    Dataday polycounter lvl 8
    To be honest, this story would be all over the place if it was revealed they donated heavily to one political party over the other, otherwise its mostly a non issue... especially with all the scandals, war and head in sand behavior going on.

    On the bright side, at least the cat..er grumpy cat, is now out of the bag.
  • WarrenM
    Yeah, I'm not sure I'm getting the dark ages comparison but ... sure.
  • katana
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    katana polycounter lvl 14
    O.k. seriously guys, even though this stuff goes on in the background, how many of you would really turn down an offer from Pixar to work there?
  • stevston89
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    stevston89 interpolator
    katana wrote: »
    O.k. seriously guys, even though this stuff goes on in the background, how many of you would really turn down an offer from Pixar to work there?

    Just because you want to work at a great studio doesn't mean you want to be treated like crap. Also just because people might still want to work there doesn't mean it's ok to artificially lower the wages.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    katana wrote: »
    O.k. seriously guys, even though this stuff goes on in the background, how many of you would really turn down an offer from Pixar to work there?

    I would turn it down. It's still a job and I don't let prestige factor into my decisions.
    Hermit wrote: »
    If you guys are so against all that crap that is going on right now why the hell don't you get together and create your own ''properly managed'' game studios and leave those big corrupted companies instead of making games for them?

    Stop blaming those big corrupted companies. Blame whoever still work for and under them. When game developers will finally have balls, maybe we'll finally have a decent video games industry.

    I thought we were talking about the VFX industry? People leave the VFX industry for games in order to get more stability!
  • low odor
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    low odor polycounter lvl 17
    Glassdoor says an average salary for an animator (based off of 6 posted) is 87k.

    That seems extremely low considering:

    California cost of living

    Pixar is supposed to be top tier talent

    The Ungodly amount of money their films make

    lots of mentions of Mandatory overtime in the reviews


    I can see the allure of wanting to work there, because they make such great films ( or have made), but to barely scrimp by so you can have the privilege of working for them is bullshit.
  • Super
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    Super polycounter lvl 18
    katana wrote: »
    O.k. seriously guys, even though this stuff goes on in the background, how many of you would really turn down an offer from Pixar to work there?

    This is precisely the problem.
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