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What It's Like To Be A Woman Making Video Games

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LRoy polycounter lvl 10
Have you guys seen this article? Thought it was interesting.

http://kotaku.com/what-its-like-to-be-a-woman-making-games-1292389459

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  • Isaiah Sherman
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    Isaiah Sherman polycounter lvl 14
    This is not just limited to the video game industry. I am not a female, but I assume most females in full-time careers that are devoid of other females feel quite the same.

    Guys would probably feel the same way in a female dominated industry. I definitely would not like to be the only dude at work with 100 ladies. That would feel pretty damn weird.

    Sometimes you just need someone of the same sex to connect with regardless of career and life choices.
  • spiderDude
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    spiderDude polycounter lvl 8
    I'm not sure if I understood what the point was. I get that it was originally posted on her website and that is fine because she is just writing out her thoughts, but I don't get where Kotaku is aiming at. The disclaimer at the bottom states that she has had a great time over the past 6 years, made great friendships, etc.

    Unfortunately, in any industry, women will end up going through one or more of what was in the article.
  • ysalex
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    ysalex interpolator
    I have a 1 year old daughter, and I take her to the park 5 days a week without my wife, sometimes 2 times a day. The park is huge, with soccer fields, a baseball diamond, a water-jet area, picnicking area, etc. We make the full loop.

    As a male with a beard (honestly I have no idea if the beard has anything to do with it), even though I have a child in full stroller and sun-hat, you wouldn't believe the suspicion I get from the women, like I'm out to abduct children in 100-child mass round-ups.

    Being in any way affiliated with this industry, as a male, is starting to feel a lot like that. It just seems to be very vogue right now to be talking about this, and to vehemently be taking side 'against' the 'industry', which unfortunately means against "men in the industry who on average do their upmost to make everyone around them comfortable, who have no problem having healthy relationships with women as co-workers."

    It's like being in a crowd and showing up for a stoning. But the crowd only has a general idea of what the perp looks like, so everyone starts getting hit with rocks. (that's my overwrought analogy for the day.)

    ___________________________

    My wife works in a male dominated field (undercover security, she works with a lot of ex-cops), and is subject to all this same shit daily and more.

    Honestly, and I mean this, I have a ton of sympathy for my wife, and I have that same amount of sympathy for any woman who has to deal with any of this in their life, career or otherwise. I don't doubt at all the claims of the woman who wrote this, nor am I surprised, nor do I think she's making too big a deal out of these issues. I'm on her side.

    What it comes down to is that the world needs better men. Just pretty simple. I don't know exactly why the industry attracts men like these, but I think it does. I think it might have something to do with hiring mostly younger men who are unattached (no families, no girlfriends, no life built up), who can travel for work, work for substandard pay, and work the overtime.

    But in the meantime, I just feel a little hopeless.
  • aivanov
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    aivanov polycounter lvl 5
    Ysalex, while I am speaking from complete speculation - I'm guessing why this field attracts the kind of men it attracts is sort of the same issue the greater IT/tech field has. Most of these guys weren't alpha-males that dominated social circles in their younger days - whether because they were physically weak, or have non-standard views/traits. They were relegated either entirely to themselves or others like them, the nerds/geeks/loners/etc. As a result of this early-on segregation, the isolation only serves to foment their interests in whatever that caused their isolation to begin with - so mathy guys keep focusing on their maths, us artists on our art, and so on.

    The dark side of that is that this isolation also sorely impedes social skills. I imagine there's a kind of resentment (not necessarily a conscious a) that builds up over time, about not being able to interact with other people outside yourself or a very small circle - of being unable to interest girls because one is effectively socially inept. These men then go on to get jobs in fields that are dominated largely by similar social pariahs. Then a woman enters the field, and now suddenly she is exposed to their stunted social skills. For some men, the resentment is active, and they see this woman as an interloper or 'phony' in their field, the field they sacrificed so much of their social life to be in, the one field they _could_ be in, with their interpersonal troubles.

    Again, largely speculation. I do have a female friend currently going through the game industry education gauntlet, and many of the things mentioned in the article happened to her as well. Regardless, such behavior from largely above-average intelligent people never ceases to amaze and anger me.
  • biofrost
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    biofrost polycounter lvl 12
    Showed my fiancee this(Who wants to be a programmer) and first thing she said was "Why is she bitching about a bathroom no one else uses. I would be all over that kind of privacy!"
  • ysalex
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    ysalex interpolator
    aivanov wrote: »
    Ysalex, while I am speaking from complete speculation - I'm guessing why this field attracts the kind of men it attracts is sort of the same issue the greater IT/tech field has. Most of these guys weren't alpha-males that dominated social circles in young days - whether because they were physically weak, or have non-standard views/traits - they were relegated to themselves or others like them, the nerds/geeks/loners/etc. As a result of this early-on segregation, the isolation only servers to foment their interests in whatever that caused their isolation to begin with - so mathy guys keep focusing on their maths, us artists on our art, and so on.

    The dark side of that is that this isolation also sorely impedes social skills. I imagine there's a kind of resentment (not necessarily a conscious) that builds up over time, about not being able to interact with other people outside yourself or a very small circle, of being unable to interest girls because one is effectively socially inept. These men then go on to get jobs in their fields that are dominated largely by similar social pariahs. Then a woman enters the field, and now suddenly she is exposed to their stunted social skills. For some men, the resentment is active, and they see this woman as an interloper or 'phony' in their field, the field they sacrificed so much of their social life to be in, the one field they _could_ be in with their interpersonal troubles.

    Again, largely speculation. I do have a female friend currently going through the game industry education gauntlet, and many of the things mentioned in the article happened to her as well.

    Eh. I get what you're trying to say, but honestly I hate that type of social pop-psychology. It's inaccurate and wildly assumptive, and not constructive in the least.

    I was a nerd/geek/etc. I didn't turn out that way. My whole group of friends were. None of them did. We are anecdotes, sure.

    This amateur psychology trend of trying to analyze and group based on no information and a history that we construct in our heads to fit the narrative we want to believe is probably best left to radio hosts and political action groups who need to demonize someone, maybe here we can keep it to a higher level.
  • aivanov
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    aivanov polycounter lvl 5
    Fair enough - I do not presume to know the reasons and such labeled it speculation. I myself am one of those nerds that ended up seemingly okay, and I certainly like to think such people are are better at evaluating consequences of their behaviour - but the amount of articles that seem to always contest this assumption of mine does make me wonder.

    Edit: An afterthought - maybe it's not so much a 'man's industry' problem, but rather a "most people are assholes" problem? Where for men, the asshole-ness tends to manifest as off-color mildly-sexist behaviour?
  • spiderDude
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    spiderDude polycounter lvl 8
    The more I look into these things for both men and women, the more I feel that, in relation to this article, whatever said "industry" said "female worker" goes through is only superficial; missing the greater issue.

    In my book, a suffering is a suffering no matter who you are because it effects a person's emotion no matter what it is. To title "What Women in Game Dev Go Through" is counter intuitive to solving the problem.

    I rarely, if ever, see an article attack the issue of Gender Expectation/Stereotypes.
    Ysalex, you mentioned the suspicions you received for taking your daughter out for a stroll, I can only assume that its because of the expectation to see the woman taking that responsibility.

    Honestly, I find Gender Stereotypes ridiculous and irritating, but we are all partly to blame for it in one instance or another. This is an issue that isn't going away any time soon and one that is very difficult to tackle because its so engraved in culture.

    The best possible action to solving it, in my opinion, is to stop categorization by gender and just treat it as humans who just want to be respected. I mean seriously...men, women, trans, whatever, we just all want to be treated fairly.

    Sorry for the rant, relevant experiences and haven't expressed it for a while.
  • ysalex
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    ysalex interpolator
    spiderDude wrote: »
    The more I look into these things for both men and women, the more I feel that, in relation to this article, whatever said "industry" said "female worker" goes through is only superficial; missing the greater issue.

    In my book, a suffering is a suffering no matter who you are because it effects a person's emotion no matter what it is.

    I think you're coming from a good place, but I disagree.

    When I walk in the park and I get dirty looks, I feel shame. I know I shouldn't, but I do. Nobody should have to feel shame for something they have no control over. That is my 'suffering'.

    When a girl is approached at night by a drunk co-worker, and that co-worker displays poor boundary control and begins making unwanted advances, that girl feels fear. Fear of rape. That's her 'suffering'.

    If you give me a choice any day of feeling shame or feeling like I might be raped, I'll choose the shame.

    Two sufferings are absolutely not the same.
  • spiderDude
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    spiderDude polycounter lvl 8
    I understand what you mean and it is a very good point in an individual stance. Personally, I never like to compare sufferings because you never know; what can be viewed as a general suffering can have profound effects on an individual. Its like the saying, you'll never know until you've walked a mile in their shoes.

    As for the drunk co-worker example, the question I ask is: What perceived notion led that man to believe "this is what she wants", followed by a vicious cycle of the victim asking herself who she has to look out for next. Its a double edged sword.

    To me, that is the dark dangerous side of gender stereotypes mixed with other issues.
  • ysalex
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    ysalex interpolator
    As for the drunk co-worker example, the question I ask is: What perceived notion led that man to believe "this is what she wants", followed by a vicious cycle of the victim asking herself who she has to look out for next. Its a double edged sword.

    What? Are you saying she must have done something to lead him on, otherwise he wouldn't have acted that way? Are you also saying that now she's reported in appropriate sexual conduct that everyone has to watch their back around her because she's likely to keep accusing people?

    I feel like I must have misunderstood.
  • Equanim
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    Equanim polycounter lvl 11
    I don't think there's enough incentive to change the climate right now because many women still aren't interested in technology. When I was in school for interactive design, about 5% of the women in my major identified themselves as coders, the rest preferred graphic design. My college, which was primarily an engineering school, had a male to female ratio of 7:2, it used to be worse.

    I think part of the problem is how women are raised. There's still a "pink isle" at the toy store and most games have really obvious gender biases. Women tend to be more responsive toward social technologies though, so hopefully that will raise interest for the next generation.

    When more women enter the field, sexism will become a real issue again, and start getting fixed.

    Ysalex, I know exactly what you mean. My parents own a nursery school (An actual school, not a daycare out of their house) and you wouldn't believe how much one of the state inspectors hates my father, the only male staff member, just for being there. The parents and kids love him but some people can't get passed a stereotype. When he was in college, no one thought he wanted to work with kids, men were seen as administrators.

    Another interesting observation: I used to work in a hardware store, another primarily male dominated field. The most sexist people I encountered were female retirees. If they called, they'd ask to speak to a man, they'd never seek advice from a female employee, and in some cases even ridicule them for working there in the first place. Again, I think it's a generational thing and the current 20 somethings aren't there yet.
  • ExcessiveZero
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    ExcessiveZero polycounter lvl 6
    This is not just limited to the video game industry. I am not a female, but I assume most females in full-time careers that are devoid of other females feel quite the same.

    Guys would probably feel the same way in a female dominated industry. I definitely would not like to be the only dude at work with 100 ladies. That would feel pretty damn weird.

    Sometimes you just need someone of the same sex to connect with regardless of career and life choices.
    when I was much, much younger I worked in a bakery with nothing but women and me,it was uncomfortable often at times, but you are there to get on and do a job, If I didn't like it I always knew I could and eventually did but not at all for that reason, leave.

    I think outside the realm of co-workers and their unreasonable attitude of which there should be rules enforced (such as sexaul harrasment) we should turn towards hiring policies as to be quite honest one of her complaints was feeling she was a novelty.

    As it stands women are often being hired in this industry on the back of Equality and diversity and not merely skills alone, which I might add is a department they can get a serious leg up in when it comes to education, with many programs aimed at females simply because they are female, which does turn them into a novelty, it belittles them and their gender as a whole, if they aren't good enough don't hire them, whether they are male, female, black, white, asian, whatever.

    People that get treated like novelties, quite often are, skill is undeniable.
  • Blaizer
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    Blaizer interpolator
    The last time i visited a studio i was surprised, almost a 40% of the workers were women. that without counting the other women that generally works in the administrative/H.R. departments.

    Things are not like they paint it there. There are plenty of studios full of ladies :). It's not good to generalize... btw it's kotaku!

    And you should not care if your coworkers are women, you are entitled with a job and if you are enough professional, you must do your job. End of discussion. Afterwards, when you finish your daily job, you will met your wife :).

    In the school, 28 of 45 students were girls. But in the university, there weren't too many girls studying engineering. A place full of guys feels weird for me.
  • ysalex
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    ysalex interpolator
    A woman says "I feel marginalized because of my gender," and your response is:

    "Well, people who feel marginalized are usually only there to fill a minority quota." ??

    Do you know something about her ability that we don't? Otherwise why would you jump right there? Seems like this is exactly the shit she's talking about.
  • Noia
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    Noia polycounter lvl 13
    It was an interesting read, although wasted on the audience of Kotaku if you read the comments. I think something people are missing is that the author reiterates that she doesn't feel (most) men are doing these things on purpose. It's easier to make friends with the same sex, so they're more likely to invite other guys out to lunch, to play a game, to get a beer, etc. I would imagine many guys don't notice it. And obviously some studios are going to be better than others.
    Equanim wrote:
    Another interesting observation: I used to work in a hardware store, another primarily male dominated field. The most sexist people I encountered were female retirees. If they called, they'd ask to speak to a man, they'd never seek advice from a female employee...
    I had this problem when I used to work in an Apple store, as a salesperson and later, a trainer. From mostly older men though, and occasionally from younger nerdy men who wanted to test/troll me on obscure factoids. Older women thought I was awesome. I dunno - something about feeling dumb/afraid to ask associates that resemble their grandson. I definitely see the generational difference though.
    As it stands women are often being hired in this industry on the back of Equality and diversity and not merely skills alone, which I might add is a department they can get a serious leg up in when it comes to education, with many programs aimed at females simply because they are female, which does turn them into a novelty, it belittles them and their gender as a whole, if they aren't good enough don't hire them, whether they are male, female, black, white, asian, whatever.

    This is happening in education for sure, but the real world (outside of HR) is different. Some interviewers feel a woman won't mesh well with a "bro" atmosphere, and thus given a choice between a male candidate and a female candidate of similar talent, will likely go with the guy. I suspect she would have been measurably better. It's impossible to determine how often this actually happens, and I imagine it happens to men who enter female dominated industries as well.
  • shotgun
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    shotgun polycounter lvl 19
    This person chooses to sulk on her feelings, apparently, and write a blog.
    Another person would tell off his colleagues right away.
    Women "choose" to blame their insecurities and internal-turmoils on their sex and on patriarchy, but if they just stop thinking this way and act accordingly they'll be better off.
  • ExcessiveZero
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    ExcessiveZero polycounter lvl 6
    ysalex wrote: »
    A woman says "I feel marginalized because of my gender," and your response is:

    "Well, people who feel marginalized are usually only there to fill a minority quota." ??

    Do you know something about her ability that we don't? Otherwise why would you jump right there? Seems like this is exactly the shit she's talking about.

    Because like I said, Skill is undeniable, I fundamentally do not judge people upon their gender and ethnicities but skill, but there is no doubt a minority quota many companies look to fill, until people are hired solely upon the measure of the best candidate with the best skill, women who have sub par skills will get hired and looked down upon, it does nobody any favours.

    and yes as you say they may have skill but because of this stupid hiring policy they may be dismissed by more ignorant co-workers as being incompetent, but most of these problems emerge from piss poor management not putting people in line with the ethics and standards that should be maintained within a professional company which any reasonably forward thinking person would naturally adhere to.

    Apparently according to the person that wrote the article even if you try not to offend you are contributing to isolation and inequality, and if you try and champion the issue you make her feel uncomfortable, and she subtly implies its not just her gender but her age also.
    You feel happy and included. But when one of your coworkers makes a joke that is crude, even though it doesn’t offend you at all and you haven’t even had time to laugh, he turns to you and apologizes, because you are the only woman at the table and your delicate sensibilities must have been affronted.You feel lonely again. You feel like you’re not supposed to be at the table.

    I found that part to be very telling myself, with all the blowup recently of men telling crude jokes then being shamed across social media, can they hardly be blamed for treading on eggshells, and regardless of how she feels about that incident, feelings being a matter of perspective, she was still at that table, I think true isolation at lunch has been felt by many of us within the school system, and you were not joked with nor your delicate sensibilities cared for.

    But also keep in mind this woman isn't merely recounting her experiences but is a professional writer.
  • Xoliul
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    Xoliul polycounter lvl 14
    I really support equality and do wish these things wouldn't be an issue. She has some fair points, things like the drunk guy truly sound uncomfortable to her.
    Some parts I just don't get though:
    If it’s nighttime and you’re walking down the vacated hallway of a shared office building in an unfamiliar city to a bathroom only you use, you feel afraid you’ll be cornered.
    I presume she's talking about going to the bathroom at work? She makes it sounds like that's some scary ordeal where she might get groped at any time, but really, at what sort of workplace is that even remotely a possibility? This just seems really overly dramatized, a place where something like that is possible should just be shut down immediately. Please correct me if you feel I'm wrong.

    ExcessiveZero: please stop it, this "minority hiring policy" thing really isn't true. While you seem to suggest it's others, not you, that use it to state "they only got hired because they're girls", you really shouldn't believe in that nonsense.
  • Bibendum
    But also keep in mind this woman isn't merely recounting her experiences but is a professional writer.
    What is it you're meaning to suggest with this statement?
  • ExcessiveZero
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    ExcessiveZero polycounter lvl 6
    Bibendum wrote: »
    What is it you're meaning to suggest with this statement?

    To give perspective, Feminist rhetoric portraying the games industry as a boys club is a hot topic issue in regards to games and the game industry, Since Anita Sarkeesian and her channel feministfrequency and its videos, it certainly gained some steam, despite Anita herself essentially being quite clearly a fraud the issue has continued along in its height, and while we do often hear of these despicable practices in isolated cases against women, exposure can be beneficial, and quite clearly profitable.

    to think someone is incapable of having ulterior motives is naive, a lot of the article isn't based on anything tangible that happened but emotions, how she felt, and a skill of a good writer which I can only assume she is, is to put yourself in another's perspective.

    As for hiring policies, while I can easily show the courses and organizations aimed solely at women to get them into the game industry getting HR policies will differ from company to company, so it is a generalization I admit and far from the rule.

    Although, while I find this to be a good article for example I have issues with statements such as this.

    http://uk.gamespot.com/news/sexism-isnt-keeping-women-out-of-industry-says-ea-exec-6402655
    At the same time, she acknowledged EA employs far more men than women, and this is an "issue to fix."

    ultimately it just shows the tick boxing agenda of some, not all of these companies not to simply employ the best and brightest but to meet diversity quotas.

    This will be the last I say on this matter as I don't wish to aggravate others with strongly held opinions and/or agendas.
  • Xoliul
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    Xoliul polycounter lvl 14
    What makes you assume that the solution EA is employing to fix this issue is "hire any woman regardless of skills" ? I can't see that stated anywhere?
    How about instead raising awareness about issues women have? Making sure that women do feel welcome? Promoting development as a career choice for women?
    The reason there aren't many women in games is not because most of them are not as skilled, but because they just aren't attracted to this line of work, because they don't feel welcome thanks to people with opinions like yours. How hard is that to grasp?
  • Acid_Wire

    ultimately it just shows the tick boxing agenda of some, not all of these companies not to simply employ the best and brightest but to meet diversity quotas.

    THANK you.
    The amount of "genders are equal, so let's focus on women for being women, lol what is logic" threads are getting ridiculous, even here.

    What is this, Tumblr?
    There is not some completely equal amount of men and women applying for every job, and a load of companies with managers from an 80s cartoon with some agenda of destroying the female population, and creating any number of barely-dressed characters will not telepathically make your hypothetical daughters somehow believe that her entire gender is inherently worthless.

    Please do not feed the feminists, or any other people who want other people's media/legislature to cater to them.

    EDIT: A lot of conjecture here. Saying the opposite of what someone else says, with equally zero evidence, does not make you win the debate.
  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm interpolator
    Blaizer wrote: »
    The last time i visited a studio i was surprised, almost a 40% of the workers were women. that without counting the other women that generally works in the administrative/H.R. departments.

    Lots of women here in games in China too. Quite a change from the European places I know. The only really irritating thing is that hot pants are accepted office attire here in China - not just in games .....that takes time to get used to. Apart from that it feels less weird than working in those all-guys places that make you feel you're part of a nerd sitcom.
  • ExcessiveZero
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    ExcessiveZero polycounter lvl 6
    Xoliul wrote: »
    What makes you assume that the solution EA is employing to fix this issue is "hire any woman regardless of skills" ? I can't see that stated anywhere?
    How about instead raising awareness about issues women have? Making sure that women do feel welcome? Promoting development as a career choice for women?
    The reason there aren't many women in games is not because most of them are not as skilled, but because they just aren't attracted to this line of work, because they don't feel welcome thanks to people with opinions like yours. How hard is that to grasp?

    Not very really, its a fantastic conclusion after all, I think people should be hired upon their skill not their gender race or sexaulity and all of a sudden I am the vicious rascal driving women out of the industry with my opinions.

    The problem with EA is the assumption that diversity must be balanced, and that if there is more men than women that there is automatically a problem, when necessarily there may not be, but this is just a general example of one of many, and policies will differ as I previously said.

    I almost caught myself writing something a bit cliched, but thought ultimately I need not lower myself to muster a defense for such things, but good on you for drawing me out to reply with your vitriolic comments and general attack on my character, which is rather amusing in a way as you have just championed the cause, and generalized all women.

    Congratulations.
  • Tejay
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    Tejay polycounter lvl 8
    Dam this post seems to be mostly guys speculating. So here is my experience so far its limited to only one company thus far. There was a total of 4 females in an office of about 60, two of us were artists and the others in the HR. Most of the guys didn't know how to approach me, and I was beyond nervous as this was my first industry job and I didn't want to screw anything up, so I struggled to approach them casually. I watched two new employees come in both male warmly welcomed to teams and even got welcome parties while all I recieved a handshake for a welcome. It continued for awhile, I tried to reach out a little more as my confidence grew but the company closed before I could make any real connection to my team mates. I don't think the situation would have changed much if the studio hadn't closed down because everyone had already decided their opinion of me. On the work side I was recieved well, my leads were happy to help and never did anything to offend me, I was treated equal or atleast it felt that way. Most of the exclusion was social, I had about 4 people who would talk to me casually outside of work, I only really had that because the other female artist introduced me. To sum it up my overall experience in one word it was lonely. Despite this I did really love my job, I just wish I'd felt more like part the team.
  • Bibendum
    spiderDude wrote: »
    To title "What Women in Game Dev Go Through" is counter intuitive to solving the problem.
    This article was originally titled "Games! Girls! Onions" both on her blog and on Gamasutra.

    It was renamed for Kotaku presumably because the new title makes better clickbait.
  • Mask_Salesman
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    Mask_Salesman polycounter lvl 13
    Highschool never ends for some it seems. :/

    Good points about isolation, the same can be said of any differences from the mass norm. That by publicly bringing it up in the first place with 'not wanting to offend due to gender, race, other' is as good as and infact does socially identify and isolate the person you are trying not to.

    Originally I thought this was going to be some kind of satirical comic strip joke from the title but despite it being a symptom to a deeper underlying social issue everyone can face the article does a good job of making the reader acknowledge it.

    *Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to belittle the adversities of what its like to be a woman in the industry, I'm just trying to put emphasis on that it's cause affects more than just gender alone, although gender is obviously the most prominently affected.*
  • spiderDude
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    spiderDude polycounter lvl 8
    @Ysalex- yikes, sorry I didn't get it across correctly. What I meant was that usually a guy like the drunk co-worker has the stereotype in their head that "all women want it", a terrible dangerous stereotype. As for the victim, there remains a lingering fear that any other man could be a rapist. A couple of my friends have been through this unfortunately, and they all have told me about that fear. Its small and just lingers in the back of your head, but its there.

    @Bibendum- exactly my point. This was originally on the author's website, which is cool because she is just sharing her thoughts with her readers. Kotaku on the other hand, I question their motive. More than likely they did it just as a clickbait.
  • Drav
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    Drav polycounter lvl 9
    Why are there sleazy drunk guys at work???

    I also agree with Xoliul about the toilets thing. If shes scared of going to the toilet alone, then there are VERY big problems with the people at that studio.


    However, the rest of the stuff I think she has valid points about, but I would say these are issues across every typically male industry where women are starting to work more frequently. My ex-girlfriend works in the film industry, and no one took her seriously with blonde hair, but started to when she changed its colour.
  • Torch
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    Torch interpolator
    Drav wrote: »
    Why are there sleazy drunk guys at work???

    Don't judge me!! *spits lager*
  • Snacuum
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    Snacuum polycounter lvl 9
    This article actually made me laugh, not due to any perceived comedy, but simply because these situation were just so ridiculous, and strange. True but in that 'life is stranger than fiction' way.

    I'm simply amazed that anyone is singled out for their age - male or female.
    I'm double amazed that anyone was surprised that anyone played games at GDC of all places.

    Some things were things I didn't consider gender specific: (but admittedly likely in a male dominate workplace)

    People shouldn't be drunk at a corporate office, go to a bar people! If you're celebrating a launch then hire a function hall or do a bbq.
    Romantic gifts would embarrass anybody.
    Toxic co-workers giving you hell when you make a simple mistake.
    In one interview, the HR staff warn you that at their company, you’d better be able to “take a joke.”
    This is atrocious and it's happened to me at an interview once. No workplace should blindly accept such inappropriate behaviour. Yeah I know "fun police" and all that but it's just too easy to cross the line, and if they do then it should be treated seriously rather than "take a joke."
    Which is even more weird if it's the same workplace where the 'lunchtime apologisers' are; people scared to offend on one hand and go way too far on the other.

    Overall I think this is a nice article though. Once again I think the games industry is being singled out though. Most important to me though is her focus on anger:
    When I see rants and accusations about who did what and why it’s very bad and why they need to change and stop being very bad, right now, I feel annoyed and frustrated because I know the only result is that everybody’s gonna feel just a little bit more uptight. How do you feel when someone assumes a posture of anger toward you? Does it make you more or less inclined to listen to them?
    Brilliant. The biggest problem I have with the now overwrought gender in games issues these days is how so many people pick a side and then use the most vitriolic tone to spread their opinion, only to promote a response in kind. I know this is the Internet and all, but trolling used to be a art.
  • Synaesthesia
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    Synaesthesia polycounter
    ysalex wrote: »
    When a girl is approached at night by a drunk co-worker, and that co-worker displays poor boundary control and begins making unwanted advances, that girl feels fear. Fear of rape. That's her 'suffering'.

    I've heard stories about this from various people I've met who work in my industry (simulators, serious games, et al.) and the stories of people being drunk at work always involve them being canned in short order. What kind of reputable company would employ anyone for any length of time whose skills involve getting wasted in their cube?

    I'm not denying that this happened to her, but after being in a professional environment, and observing how offices operate, I find it hard to understand how anyone would tolerate that kind of behavior.
  • Noors
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    Noors greentooth
    Date a coworker, problem solved.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    What kind of reputable company would employ anyone for any length of time whose skills involve getting wasted in their cube?

    Most likely someone who drank too much at a company get-together. The office cultures are very different between milsim/serious and video games, I witnessed this at the IGDA D.C. meetups.

    When I was in my twenties I was the only man in an office full of women and it was uncomfortable. I got along ok with everyone but they did enjoy embarrassing me and I was treated like a little kid. I know it isn't completely equal because I never felt in danger. The only real solution is to not have a gender imbalance - which isn't really that easy to solve.

    They also spread rumors that I was a military veteran who was married and had a kid... WTF!?
  • Synaesthesia
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    I'd imagine the game studio environment is a bit different from what I'm used to on a daily basis (you have no idea how many acronyms I hear in a day!) but how would anyone tolerate a drunkard employee? I personally don't care what you do in your off time, but you're at work to work, not to get drunk/high. I'd be afraid of anyone being drunk at work regardless of gender. I'd rather not be around booze hounds at 9p after working 12 hours, especially considering how volatile drunk people can be.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    I'd imagine the game studio environment is a bit different from what I'm used to on a daily basis (you have no idea how many acronyms I hear in a day!) but how would anyone tolerate a drunkard employee? I personally don't care what you do in your off time, but you're at work to work, not to get drunk/high. I'd be afraid of anyone being drunk at work regardless of gender. I'd rather not be around booze hounds at 9p after working 12 hours, especially considering how volatile drunk people can be.

    most places I've been have enacted a "don't come back to the office" policy after events. I know some people that work in "hip" startups in other industries and it isn't uncommon for the boss to come in at 3 on a friday with a bunch of beer for everyone. I think the craziest example is the Games Workshop HQ - it has its own pub.
  • Synaesthesia
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    I can see that. Several of the companies (including the one I subcontract under) have after-work social events that usually involve a local restaurant with the intent of getting a beer or two. Occasionally the PM brings in a case of beer to celebrate something important, but it's always toward the end of the day and we're all aware that the working day is finished at that point.

    Speaking of women in industries, the women I've worked with have always been great people and have been "accepted" by the team with no integration issues. They joke as much as we do and can be just as relaxed as the men are. I can't speak for them, but I've never seen any evidence of personal issues being brought up. We're all pretty tight-knit and people being abusive/harassing aren't tolerated because it ruins productivity. I'm aware that our experiences are by no means anyone else's - it's just nice to work in an environment where we all get along.
  • WarrenM
    We often have beer and pizza for company meetings on Friday afternoons but the expectation is that, hey, have a beer or two but don't get wasted. In other words, control yourself.
  • David-J
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    David-J polycounter lvl 11
    I believe articles like that are important to be out there. Those kind of issues need to be talked about and both men and women need to be aware of these kind of things that are happening.

    My wife has worked in the game industry and I can say that she had to deal with inappropriate behavior from men. She worked at 2 different game companies with two very distinct atmospheres. One of them was a smaller game company with the more "nerdy" people and very few women. The other company was a big company with a more even demographic. The difference was quite big when it came to men and how they behaved. At the smaller company she had a good amount of those stories but at the bigger one. Thanks to being more women around and that the company seemed more professional it created a better environment for both men and women.

    Someone said it previously in this thread. We need better men. Pure and simple. The fact that these articles are out there it's because of inappropriate behavior from men, not because women are over complaining.
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