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Tar-21 WIP (feedback wanted)

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RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
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Is my problem not enough edge padding for a 4k map? i have it set to 20 in xnormal and i seem to get some nasty seams . all the hard edges are set to hard and have their own UV Islands. Really want to move on to textureing but issues with normal maps are really starting to get in the way.


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Replies

  • dpadam450
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    dpadam450 polycounter lvl 9
    "(so no I did not save the smoothed version of the model)"
    Always save your work.

    Looks like some versions have grip on the front. Not sure if you were going to add that as well.

    http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/deadliestfiction/images/4/4f/Iwi_tavor_tar21.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width/250?cb=20130411001955
  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
    oh the model is saved, I'm modeling it in maya so I cant just delete turbosmooth from a modifier stack. if I save it smoothed its too complex to work with. I'm going to add the grooves on the end, but I have not decided if I'm going to do that in the normal or if I'm going to actually model the grooves.
  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
    So I believe the highpoly is done (edited, I had to go back and remodel the fire selector). the wires are a little messy but i do not see any problems with smoothing. I plan on putting an Eotech sight on the top rail. any comments on my model or advice would be much appreciated.16228697800_eb448c9e50_o.png
  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
    I think I am done with the High poly unless someone points out that something is really off with it. This is the first time I've attempted making a low poly version of a gun from my high poly. do I just duplicate the model and start collapseing edges and welding verts from the smoothed version or do I do it to the unsmoothed version?

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  • Sanislov
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    Sanislov polycounter lvl 9
    Can you show us the model without turbosmooth? I think better way to make a loop around this holes on the side. That way you can avoid these cornered parts.
  • The Lone Penguin
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    The Lone Penguin polycounter lvl 9
    Ideally what you would do is create a block-in model that's just basic shapes and details to nail down proportions. This can then be used as your base for both the high and low poly. If you don't have one then you're probably going to want to work off of your unsmoothed geo and delete any unnecessary edges and support loops.
  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
    Here it is not smoothed

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  • Sanislov
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    Sanislov polycounter lvl 9
    Here is a quick suggestion, what i told about the holes:
    holes.png
  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
    @Sanislov and @The Lone Penguin.

    That helped out a lot. and the holes on the end from being wonky.
    I have a question though. I am in maya and I am collapsing edges and merging verts, but some of my faces are looking like they are now in different smoothing groups. How do I prevent that from happening?
  • martygalinskas3d
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    martygalinskas3d polycounter lvl 4
    at the top of the stock on your low poly you should triangulate some of those edges, they're completely useless on that flat piece. same goes for other areas. low poly should be lower poly still.

    EDIT: nevermind that's not low poly.
  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
    Ok So I started on the low poly.

    Am I heading in the right directions? Does anything need to be done differently?

    16267793327_1e3acdc435_o.png
  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
    I think I have just finished with the low poly, my goat was to keep it under 15k tris and its currently 14581 tris. Let me know if any thing should be changed before I start on the UVs. This is my first gun I have made with he intention of it going into a game engine.

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  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
    I have edited my low poly after the advice of a friend to get rid of some of the indention and screws that could be baked into the normal. does this look good? any advice at all would be great I'm trying to make a portfolio piece.

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  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
    So I am, trying to UV this thing in Headus UV Layout (Which I do know how to use) but I have no clue what needs to be its own island and what does not. this is my first hard surface model. I have seen others texture maps and everything is broken up so neatly in straight lines.

    can anyone offer any advice?

    ea06a53109129c29c31ca7b25e6bc8a34686d8e9a0e64f42312cb5686dd3e259.jpg
  • C86G
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    C86G greentooth
    Sanislov wrote: »
    Here is a quick suggestion, what i told about the holes:
    holes.png

    I´d say, don´t even chamfer/round the edges at all in your high poly and use only controll edges. That way you can easily edit the hardness later on without the need to recreate the whole edge/shape.
  • pmiller001
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    pmiller001 greentooth
    RaptorCWS wrote: »
    So I am, trying to UV this thing in Headus UV Layout (Which I do know how to use) but I have no clue what needs to be its own island and what does not. this is my first hard surface model. I have seen others texture maps and everything is broken up so neatly in straight lines.

    can anyone offer any advice?

    ea06a53109129c29c31ca7b25e6bc8a34686d8e9a0e64f42312cb5686dd3e259.jpg

    I have the same question haha.
  • bramnicaise
    So you're not sure wether to stack some uv shells or not? In that case I'd say, stack everything that is repetitive. Like those ribbon thingies on the side.
    ayPGYHp.png
    You could leave some out to have some variation, but they don't all need te be unique.

    As for the big parts, I tend to unwrap only half of the mesh and use a symmetry modifier in the end and then collapse. Both sides will share the same uv space which doesn't really matter since you'll only see one side at a time. (And it saves alot of texture space)

    I hope this is of any help, I've been making some guns too lately :)
  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
    So you're not sure wether to stack some uv shells or not? In that case I'd say, stack everything that is repetitive. Like those ribbon thingies on the side.
    ayPGYHp.png
    You could leave some out to have some variation, but they don't all need te be unique.

    As for the big parts, I tend to unwrap only half of the mesh and use a symmetry modifier in the end and then collapse. Both sides will share the same uv space which doesn't really matter since you'll only see one side at a time. (And it saves alot of texture space)

    I hope this is of any help, I've been making some guns too lately :)


    I could definitely do that with the holes on the sides and the rails, but the left and right side of that gun are asymmetrical sadly. I do have a question though, i unwrapped most of it and did a test bake and I get these really nasty errors where ever there is a group of tris at. How do i avoid that?
  • bramnicaise
    RaptorCWS wrote: »
    I could definitely do that with the holes on the sides and the rails, but the left and right side of that gun are asymmetrical sadly. I do have a question though, i unwrapped most of it and did a test bake and I get these really nasty errors where ever there is a group of tris at. How do i avoid that?

    Could you post a picture? It could be due to smoothing groups. I usually apply a meshsmooth modifier on the whole mesh with 0 iterations. This sometimes fixes any smoothing groups problems.
    What software are you using to bake? (sorry if I missed that)
  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
    sure, not everything was baked properly i was just testing the main body of it
    16335348157_031389dddc_b.jpg16520243772_f55e0ebdfe_b.jpg
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  • Light On Switch
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    Light On Switch polycounter lvl 4
    when you unwrapped it, is your smoothing groups the same as your uv shells? from what i see your smoothing groups are the cause of your normals baking incorrectly.
  • EarthQuake
    Make your edges hard where your uv maps seams are, this will help a great deal. More here: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107196

    Also, make sure to select the correct tangent space (in object properties) when view in TB2.
  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
    i did not set smoothing groups before unwrapping, i even tried putting everything in the same smoothing group to see if that would fix the errors on flat surfaces and i still get the errors
  • Light On Switch
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    Light On Switch polycounter lvl 4
    from what i practiced. a good thing to keep in mind when making the low poly is a clean topology. try not to connect too many edges together and creating multiple triangles to one vertices, cause if you notices, most of your weird smoothing is due to that. i circles some troubled areas, and rehashed where edges should flow to make a better bake.


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  • BobtheGreatII
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    BobtheGreatII polygon
    RaptorCWS wrote: »
    i did not set smoothing groups before unwrapping, i even tried putting everything in the same smoothing group to see if that would fix the errors on flat surfaces and i still get the errors

    What they're trying to say is that the smoothing groups need to match your UV shells. One smoothing group will give you errors. Textools has a pretty handy function that will do it for you, so you might look in to that.
  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
    Thanks everybody for everything you have helped me with so far but I am still having issues I did the box thing to see if I understood with putting each face on its on UV island and That baked out perfect, but on this gun I cant seem to get anything to work. For example

    the highlighted parts are on their own island and if I dont soften those edges i get the nasty baking errors. I understand that if I soften those edges in maya and rebake the error goes away. but I gain a new error with these tris showing up in the normal bake ( i know the 2 small ones are under that knob thing on both of them, and that there are other errors).

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    Is the problem my low poly model being modeled incorrectly or am I not understanding smoothing groups/ whatever they should be called by a maya user.
  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
    Ok So i fixed the artifact issue I was having and then I ran into a skewing problem. I tried adding geometry to the specific problem areas, but that seems to have caused the opposite of the effect it was supposed to solve.

    and if i do the skewmesh technique it seems to undo all of my smoothing groups and i receive artifacts on everything again... I should have done an M-4 like everyone else. Lol

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  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
    Problem Solved
  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
    Is my problem not enough edge padding for a 4k map? i have it set to 20 in xnormal and i seem to get some nasty seams . all the hard edges are set to hard and have their own UV Islands. Really want to move on to textureing but issues with normal maps are really starting to get in the way.16681525027_b463eab8c4_b.jpg
    16266490794_000da3e6cb_b.jpg

    16887687432_a8d3e62528_b.jpg

    16268888553_201a718f27_b.jpg

    16887906911_84647b9587_b.jpg
  • Bek
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    Bek interpolator
  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
    Bek wrote: »
    Using a cage?

    Yep. Everything is inside their envelopes. I'm kind of at a loss for what's going on now because after running into all sorts of problems over the past month. Nothing I tried tonight would fix it
  • Bek
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    Bek interpolator
    Is there a significant highpoly/lowpoly mismatch, or is the cage pushed out much further than it needs to be? It looks like you're getting it on some pieces and not others (smaller pieces being more often affected). So that's a starting point. Check the texel density of small pieces; look at the normal map itself to see what is happening. If you've just given a global push value for the whole model to make the cage, then the small pieces will have a much larger cage than in necessary.

    See if baking at double res fixes it. If so, downscale that map and see if it still happens.
  • EarthQuake
    Did you split and move your uvs apart along your hard edges? Post the actual map itself, that may help.

    Also 20 pixels of padding is rather low for a 4k map, (you can never have too much padding, that's not a thing). Though 20 pixels of padding should be more than enough to prevent this sort of issue.
  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
    @Bek Ill try another bake tomorrow adjusting the cages a little bit. they are not that far out (i did not do a global push but i also did not spend much time on those pieces) but the problem does seem to happen mostly on small pieces.

    I have looked up what texel density is, but I'm not sure what it means or how to check it. Baking at double res did not change it.

    @EarthQuake I did split and move my UVs along my hard edges I think the problem is with the layout overall. We never covered this or really anything past basic modeling and animation in school so this has been a bit of a struggle teaching myself. I do appreciate all the resources you have posted on baking normal maps here on polycount it has taught me a lot.

    Behold the worlds ugliest UV map. lol
    16898304031_2d52df07d4_o.jpg

    This was converted from an object space normal map in xnormal
  • Bek
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    Bek interpolator
    The background shouldn't be black. It should be neutral (128, 128, 255). That's probably the cause of the black lines. It'd probably have to be mipping though, cause you've got edge padding...

    I'd also bake a TS map to see if you're getting any errors when going from OS to TS.

    Texel density is basically a numerical value that represents how much texture space a piece has. Ideally you want uniform texel density across your model, as big differences are easy to notice. But sometimes you want/need to scale up certain pieces, like really small pieces that wouldn't get enough texture space. Sometimes for first person weapons you'll scale up pieces that are close to the in-game camera, and scale down those parts that won't be seen close up. One way people check texel density is to apply a square checker texture tot their model and see how uniform the sizes of the square are. This also lets you spot distortion.
  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
    I ended up using a script in maya to adjust the smoothing groups based on the uv islands and it solved the weird stuff that was going on earlier (apparently unlock normals is not enough for maya to let me adjust smooth/hard edges like it used to be). but created a new problem for me with a brand new set of shading errors that were not previously there and do not show up in an object spaced map.
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  • Bek
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    Bek interpolator
    You re-imported the model with the new smoothing into tb2 right? And if any parts are mirrored (although that doesn't appear to be the case from your normal map) you should triangulate before you mirror them to prevent different triangulation occurring on one side.
  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11
    I'm Pretty sure I did. but it is a shading issue on the model that was not there earlier so it could be that.
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