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Dota 2 - Workshop Thread

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  • Spudnik
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    Spudnik polycounter lvl 11
    Random question, is DotaCinema a youtube partner? Do they make ad revenue from their videos?

    Pretty damn sure that's a yes.
  • Rubus
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    Rubus polycounter lvl 5
    Robobobo wrote: »
    If set deserves to get ingame, it will, with or without advertisement

    Robo already nailed it some pages ago, but that pretty much sums it up.

    I would really disagree of such sponsorships if it meant that the sponsored item/set would have bigger chances to get in just because it's linked to some kind of organization, despite its quality.

    Hopefully, that's still not the case so far, I think, and I don't see a problem with the guys on DC trying to make a cut from the Workshop.

    They've fans and a large community behind them, it's not like they are random people that have no involvement with the Dota scene whatsoever who are just in for some quick cash grab, exploiting artists and such.

    Though, I agree that if sponsored stuff start flooding the workshop it won't be good either, but that's something that never happened. Just keep your eyes opened and stones ready to throw at the right time, that isn't right now.

    ***

    @SemiColonThree:

    Although I would agree that your work is good, it's far from the best one around.

    And even if it was, I don't think you're in position of saying what other artists should do to be sucessful *as you*, not in such an arrogant way.

    ***

    So yeah folks, let's keep the good stuff coming. Less talkin', more raidin'!
  • SemiColonThree
    I never did claim to be more successful than everyone

    The whole arguement was about complaining about viewcount and votes.
    Rubus wrote: »
    Robo already nailed it some pages ago, but that pretty much sums it up.

    I would really disagree of such sponsorships if it meant that the sponsored item/set would have bigger chances to get in just because it's linked to some kind of organization, despite its quality.

    Hopefully, that's still not the case so far, I think, and I don't see a problem with the guys on DC trying to make a cut from the Workshop.

    They've fans and a large community behind them, it's not like they are random people that have no involvement with the Dota scene whatsoever who are just in for some quick cash grab, exploiting artists and such.

    Though, I agree that if sponsored stuff start flooding the workshop it won't be good either, but that's something that never happened. Just keep your eyes opened and stones ready to throw at the right time, that isn't right now.

    ***

    @SemiColonThree:

    Although I would agree that your work is good, it's far from the best one around.

    And even if it was, I don't think you're in position of saying what other artists should do to be sucessful *as you*, not in such an arrogant way.

    ***

    So yeah folks, let's keep the good stuff coming. Less talkin', more raidin'!
  • bounchfx
    I honestly think a lot of the issues could be solved with a 'Set' button when submitting on the workshop, separate from collections, that combines the items to one page, so that submissions on the weekly pages aren't flooded. It would also help consolidate set votes from being spread apart.

    It's just kind of weird having one or two sets taking up the entire page, regardless of how awesome the sets are, really. I'm pretty sure we can all agree on that.
  • mrpresident
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    mrpresident polycounter lvl 10
    I'll chime in on this debate I guess, I'm a bit biased since I worked on the alliance alch set, but I feel that as long as 1) the submission quality is still high 2) both parties are getting a fair deal 3) the partner providing marketing has given a lot to the dota community and deserves to be a part of the game and 4) it is still very much possible for submissions to be accepted without having a partner, then everything is good.

    If any of those 4 rules start getting broken regularly then I'll get worried, the penguin and beaver couriers are a bit concerning, but I don't see a problem with the dota cinema sven set at all.
    bounchfx wrote: »
    It's just kind of weird having one or two sets taking up the entire page, regardless of how awesome the sets are, really. I'm pretty sure we can all agree on that.

    Agreed.
    Random question, is DotaCinema a youtube partner? Do they make ad revenue from their videos?

    I think I remember sunsfan saying on a livestream on youtube that he didn't care if people were running adblock or not because they don't make much from youtube anyway, I'm fairly sure the vast majority of their profits come from the dotacinema website.
  • Rubus
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    Rubus polycounter lvl 5
    Yeah, reorganizing the Workshop page is something I think is a next step to the Workshop as a whole.

    That and making it less sluggish, dear god, it's a chore to open each item to rate up.
  • Hawkseye
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    Hawkseye polycounter lvl 4
    I liked the workshop when it was just artists making cool stuff for a game they like.

    Now, not so much.

    The workshop was a very different place when i submitted my first item over a year ago now.

    Since then, the workshop has become more and more filled with items that have people and organizations like DotaCinema, CyborgMatt etc. attached to them as well as e-sport team items and items accompanied by tournament tickets. All in exchange for advertisement.

    It was obvious this was gonna happen eventually as the workshop grew.

    My concern is this: If this continues, in 6-12 months what hope will there be for those who dont want to go all super business like and just make items for fun? Probably none whatsoever.
  • mrpresident
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    mrpresident polycounter lvl 10
    Hawkseye wrote: »
    I liked the workshop when it was just artists making cool stuff for a game they like.

    Now, not so much.

    The workshop was a very different place when i submitted my first item over a year ago now.

    Since then, the workshop has become more and more filled with items that have people and organizations like DotaCinema, CyborgMatt etc. attached to them as well as e-sport team items and items accompanied by tournament tickets. All in exchange for advertisement.

    It was obvious this was gonna happen eventually as the workshop grew.

    My concern is this: If this continues, in 6-12 months what hope will there be for those who dont want to go all super business like and just make items for fun? Probably none whatsoever.

    This is what I worry about too, will having a partnership be a requirement to get accepted a year from now unless you're an Anuxi or Danidem or Jeremy Klein?

    I have faith in Valve, but I do worry sometimes.

    Although admittedly the quality of submissions today is about 5x better than a year ago too, so so far the increased competition has only been a good thing for the playerbase.
  • BladeofEvilsBane
    As long as the criteria for an item stays at excellent design, faithful execution, and approval by valve based on those two ideas alone (with or without the public's full approval) there will never be a monopoly on the workshop. Good ideas simply can't be contained, they will find their own way to shine.
  • PoPcorn
    bounchfx wrote: »
    I honestly think a lot of the issues could be solved with a 'Set' button when submitting on the workshop, separate from collections, that combines the items to one page, so that submissions on the weekly pages aren't flooded. It would also help consolidate set votes from being spread apart.

    It's just kind of weird having one or two sets taking up the entire page, regardless of how awesome the sets are, really. I'm pretty sure we can all agree on that.

    I really like this idea. Lots of great items are being missed out because of the current system.
  • Gamer_Alien
    As long as the criteria for an item stays at excellent design, faithful execution, and approval by valve based on those two ideas alone (with or without the public's full approval) there will never be a monopoly on the workshop. Good ideas simply can't be contained, they will find their own way to shine.

    Valve is the one that accepts items in the game.

    If the public's approval is not needed, why does the voting system exist ?
    If the public's approval is needed, what about the invisible items in a monopolized workshop ?

    all new entries must be posted on the first page at the top spot. Up votes shouldn't exist. Instead, Players should Down vote the stuff they dont want, Acting like a filter of public opinion rather than a selection-opinion.

    It should be "We dont Want this" Not "We want this".

    Again, would players browse through all the random (no offense, often trash stuff) posted ? its not their job to voice their opinion ya know ...



    Just my thoughts.
  • BladeofEvilsBane
    Public opinion on a set does matter to a certain extent, but valve is in the end the sole arbiter of what gets in and what doesn't. The key word there being they don't need full consent from the public to say "we want this featured in our game"
  • Tamarin
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    Tamarin polycounter lvl 17
    What if the workshop was not an open vote?

    Every new submission could be rated by players in game. Maybe while you are waiting for a game to start a new submission would flash on screen and you could rate it on predetermined criteria.

    Each new submission would have equal # of votes and the items would display on the workshop in order of user opinion.

    For example, you could rate an item from 1-10 across 1000 users. From that you would have a number between 1-10,000 that would be a pretty good statistical approximation of how universally acceptable an item is.

    I actually think data like that might be more useful.
  • belkun
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    belkun polycounter lvl 7
    If the public's approval is not needed, why does the voting system exist ?
    If the public's approval is needed, what about the invisible items in a monopolized workshop ?

    That's my main gripe with the workshop. It just doesn't make sense.
    Valve says that they only add what the community wants, but we see pretty frequently that a lot of items that reach the front page just vanish and never see the light of day. On the other hand, the inverse also happens. I browse the workshop pretty often, and obviously also Polycount, and it isn't uncommon to see stuff (specially single items on crates) that just get added to the game without any major acceptance from the playerbase, making it look like Valve doesn't care about votes but "quality".

    I would love to see a "Steam Workshop 2.0" with lots of improvements, but I've seen similar discussions as this one on lots of places and they never lead to anything.
  • fx01
    hey guys here is my first workshop submission.
    i hope at least somebody likes it :o


    The Scattered Prince :
    cvAVlXv.jpg
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=189012444



    and ye! thx to all polycounters that do tutorials and help! you guys do a great job :poly142:
  • motenai
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    motenai polycounter lvl 18
    My few thoughts on the last pages of conversation.

    Dota 2 Workshop (at least the way I lived it)...i started posting my first object 1 year ago, and back then the workshop was a nice place...single artists trying to make something nice for the game they loved...trying to improve also their art skill...very few professional artists involved back then. In general the people voting back then were rewarding quality (mainly poor at that point) and ideas.
    Then polycount contest came, and that was the turning point...professional got involved, big on anyone Anuxi who really got an edge on most of the community and started posting superior quality items and a new idea...you can make of Dota 2 your main career!
    From here slowly the new idea got in the mind of people, who took Dota 2 way more seriously than what was for TF2 before...sponsored items, linked to big names, big tournaments, slowly started appearing, while the bar of quality kept raising (except few episodes of penguins and beavers (and CKs?)). And the last thing that this morning made my eyes goes like O_O was the 7500 votes of the Sven set in 12 hours. Impressive!...and worrying...
    All this story is only to give a perspective of evolution of the workshop...the direction it's taking...Today things are still ok...Sven got hyper popular, but it doesn't prevent other sets without any sponsorship to shine as well (althought way less, even at the same level of quality).
    But i think it's not hard to see where this is going...the track is pretty clear ahead...all these episodes of sponsorships and "special sets" are becoming more and more popular, to the point that in some months to 1 year maximum they are going to be almost the standard to get ahead of the thousand of things that get published everyweek...and this scares me a bit. I miss the "old, 1 year ago" times, where was the artist and only the artists that could make the difference.

    On the Steam Workshop system...agreed with the thing that Sets should get one slot!
    Agree also on how certain items of good quality remains invisible if they don't get an initial boost to make it to the first page at least...
    I think the best system wouldn't be actually complicated....Valve already has it...The Greenlight System...you get a batch of 10-12 items, randomly chosen between good,bad,average or whatever....then people vote those items Yes or No....pretty straight forward...and you pass to the next one. after those, you get the option to load or not another batch...in this way every item get visibility, but only certain items get big votes.

    And i think with this i said mine...cya

    Edit: on the Riki set...not bad, nice presentation as well, but i'd work more on the textures...they look a bit too flat colors imho...welcome in the rumble!
  • K-PAX
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    K-PAX polycounter lvl 7
    Snowstorm wrote: »
    Nice set K-pax! Looks really well done.

    thanks Snowstorm Tamarin Oroboros 7thBattery and bounchfx :)

    and hope custom animation in game asap~ go go go AndrewHelenek and Vidotto.
  • bounchfx
    motenai wrote: »
    Agree also on how certain items of good quality remains invisible if they don't get an initial boost to make it to the first page at least...
    I think the best system wouldn't be actually complicated....Valve already has it...The Greenlight System...you get a batch of 10-12 items, randomly chosen between good,bad,average or whatever....then people vote those items Yes or No....pretty straight forward...and you pass to the next one. after those, you get the option to load or not another batch...in this way every item get visibility, but only certain items get big votes.

    I like this. Though there would still need to be a way to see top rated stuff, yeah? obviously there would be direct linking still, but changing the front page from 'top this week' to your random/here vote some suggestion is a good one imo. It's really about showing a wider range of items for consideration instead of those that get the 'initial bump', as it has been said.
  • Puppy
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    Puppy polycounter lvl 6
    MdK wrote: »
    Nice work Puppy! You might want to post a workshop link so people can vote on it :)
    Ups.. ya i forgot, here is the workshop link.
    http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=188726463
    Invoker_Khaelthorn_Arcanscape_set.jpg

    Invoker_Khaelthorn_Arcanscape_ingame.jpg
    And here is my blog where i usually post my WIP. Next project I will make sure to post it in here too.
    http://dota2puppy.blogspot.com/
    I really want to improve myself as an 3D artist and making items for fun. I saw so many great great great artists in polycount, I want to learn from them in here >.<

    Cheers to everyone and have a nice day.
  • Gamer_Alien
    motenai wrote: »
    Sven got hyper popular, but it doesn't prevent other sets without any sponsorship to shine as well (althought way less, even at the same level of quality).

    I worry that I, as a single freelance DOTA 2 PLAYING ARTIST that wants to contribute to the game not make 6 digit incomes from it (although it would be nice) that i would be stripped of the chance to get my items in the game because of some monopoly in the workshop.

    Valve wont let their game go to Sh*t, so i dont worry about quality of all the submissions that much.


    So basically : Valve, we know you love all the big guys pumping the marketed good stuff out and filling your pockets, we would still love to have a significant chance of having our items ingame.
  • Snowstorm
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    Snowstorm polycounter lvl 5
    I never did claim to be more successful than everyone

    The whole arguement was about complaining about viewcount and votes.

    Listen mate, it's all part of the same issue.

    Just FYI, my post on your thread that is now a one-liner was previously a 3 paragraph scathing critique that I deleted after thinking, "fuck it, this negativity isn't worth it." However now that other people have stood up to critique it too, I know I'm not just being overly critical. Everyone else seemed to love it, so I doubted what I was thinking.

    To sum it up, I think your promotional art is excellent. But I think that set is poor. The shading looks flat in-game, and the masks don't make it look metallic much. The shading issues are very visible on the sword, pauldron and bracer. It's a massive missed opportunity.

    So with that in mind, when you say you "actually put effort in to create a quality set" I'm gonna have to disagree with you. You do stunning promotional work, that I agree with. And your previous sets have been very good, that I also agree with. However this set, promotional material aside I don't think is up to your standards.

    And therein lie all the issues. The first is spectacular promotion blinding workshop voters to the actual quality of the set. This has been an ongoing debate on here for a while now, and some aren't very pleased with it. In the case of this set, I certainly think that the promotion has caused what's an average looking quality set to be catapulted into the realm of what should be only reserved for the very best sets. Compared that to stuff like Jeremy Klein and Anuxi's sets that barely even claim top spots the way yours do. The only other artist I can think of that consistently does that for a full set would be Don Don.

    This is not to slight you or promotional work - it worked great with the Kunkka set, I've got no complaints there. But when it works that well with a set that's not as good, then it starts to look unfair.

    The other thing is the pairing up with organisations to get into the Store. It's an issue because of the beaver, and the HUDs etc that have been getting in through association with small tournaments and whatnot. And since this set is not up to your usual standards, the issue rears its ugly head again here - the association with the organisation is similarly keeping people from voting on the actual quality of the set.

    You might argue that the ends justify the means, and that you know better how to play the workshop. I'm entirely fine with that, I think the promotional work you do is great, and I like looking at it. I enjoy creating such stuff too in fact. I just think that knowing that set isn't as good as it should be, your effort should be in bringing the set up to the standard of your promotional work, rather than justifying the disparity in standard. I'm pretty darned sure if you can do promotional work like that you have the chops to make the set look as spectacular. My questions is if you put in the "actual effort" to make a quality set, why doesn't it?

    Look at it this way, no one complained when Don Don's DK premier league set dominated the top of the charts, and neither did anyone complain when your Kunkka set did so too - because they were superb sets. In fact I took inspiration and learnt from the promotional value of your work. We're artists here, and we like to see art. People are taking issue now because the popularity due to the association with DC doesn't match the quality of that set imo.

    --edit-- What package do you do your work in btw? Could it be that the normals on those pieces are inverted and therefore not shading correctly in-game? Cos the shading on that sword looks borked as hell.
  • EtotheRic
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    EtotheRic polycounter lvl 18
    bounchfx wrote: »
    Snaggletooth is finally in! It has been a loooooooong time coming but we are proud to present our new courier:

    637x358.resizedimage

    Hope you guys dig it!

    Thumbs up'ed!
  • Vayne4800
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    Vayne4800 polycounter lvl 3
    all I see is PC becoming a place to advertise ones work and less about sharing knowledge. Sven set, Abandon set, bu... Etc. So many sets are posted just like that here for the sake of more exposure. If anyone gones back to the first 300 pages of this thread, you will know exactly what I mean. This falls along the lines of this whole last discussion. People are caring to market their items more than anything...

    Also, 200 votes are enough to get your item in (maybe less). So I don't understand why go to such lengths in marketing work to hit 1k or 10k.
  • AndrewHelenek
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    AndrewHelenek polycounter lvl 6
    Vayne4800 wrote: »
    all I see is PC becoming a place to advertise ones work and less about sharing knowledge. Sven set, Abandon set, bu... Etc. So many sets are posted just like that here for the sake of more exposure. If anyone gones back to the first 300 pages of this thread, you will know exactly what I mean. This falls along the lines of this whole last discussion. People are caring to market their items more than anything...

    Personally I believe that's that become of this thread now that we've gotten our own section of the forum. Originally we only had this one thread, everything dota workshop was discussed there. Now just about anyone has their own threads, and we have a deciated tutorial thread. Things just got more spread out.
  • marul
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    marul polycounter lvl 7
    Vayne4800 wrote: »
    all I see is PC becoming a place to advertise ones work and less about sharing knowledge. Sven set, Abandon set, bu... Etc. So many sets are posted just like that here for the sake of more exposure. If anyone gones back to the first 300 pages of this thread, you will know exactly what I mean. This falls along the lines of this whole last discussion. People are caring to market their items more than anything...

    Also, 200 votes are enough to get your item in (maybe less). So I don't understand why go to such lengths in marketing work to hit 1k or 10k.

    There's nothing wrong with promoting your work here unless nobody spends the time to answer a question you ask (which is not an issue here, i believe). It's hard to create good stuff and people want to get attention, that simple.
  • Snowstorm
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    Snowstorm polycounter lvl 5
    Vayne4800 wrote: »
    all I see is PC becoming a place to advertise ones work and less about sharing knowledge. Sven set, Abandon set, bu... Etc. So many sets are posted just like that here for the sake of more exposure. If anyone gones back to the first 300 pages of this thread, you will know exactly what I mean. This falls along the lines of this whole last discussion. People are caring to market their items more than anything...

    Also, 200 votes are enough to get your item in (maybe less). So I don't understand why go to such lengths in marketing work to hit 1k or 10k.

    I do think that coming here to promote our work is fine, and is just part of how the community works - not everyone is going to want to show all of their work processes. I've definitely benefitted from just coming here for exposure. That was all I wanted when I first joined tbh.
  • Vayne4800
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    Vayne4800 polycounter lvl 3
    Sorry for not being clear. Showcasing one's work is fine. The issue, I believe, is that it is mostly just that. I could be over thinking it.
  • Coyo.Te
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    Coyo.Te polycounter lvl 4
    marul wrote: »
    There's nothing wrong with promoting your work here unless nobody spends the time to answer a question you ask (which is not an issue here, i believe). It's hard to create good stuff and people want to get attention, that simple.

    well there's no problem with promo here, cause its part of the process, i read vaynes comment a bit different. It just feels a bit odd that people join pc and just throw promo pics and workshop link at you. It feels a bit like an "eat or die" mentality which I highly dislike.
    The problem with this is, that if everybody would do that, the community would be dead since the main purpose of the community would be nihilated which is exchange, helping eachother out, talking about stuff. If you only commit towards one side of that you kill the whole purpose. Dialog is not a one way street.

    But on the other hand some people join the ring with/for exposure and stay with good comments and a helping hand, you never know. It's just maybe not really clever to join a community and simply put links out there people should vote on. I dont say its wrong, i am just stating that it might convey the wrong attitude.

    On the issue of the whole "cheating" an items way into the game by partnering up with some dota2-community celebrities, I am not a big fan of it nor am I a big fan of branding. The whole issue is very complex in my opinion since valve stance on item quality seems to change from shift to shift, so you cant rely on them to sort out that crap stuff, but apparently branded stuff gets in easier when partnering up with the right people.
    Its economy and all sorts of nasty practics start to appear. I am not a fan of it, but I dont think we can stop it since it has already worked in the real world, now we have a smaller but very much alike eco system. The problem I have with that is the long term and the consequences some decisions might have which people obviously cant forsee or care about at all.
  • Frump
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    Frump polycounter lvl 12
    When some other folks and I visited Valve after TI3 we mentioned to the Dota team that it would be nice to have sets combined into one thumbnail or entry.

    I believe they said that the guys who designed the workshop system were working on other projects now. So, I don't see that coming any time soon. The workshop system is sort of external to the actual game's development.

    On a different topic, I don't think there's anything to worry about with regards to needing a third party to get your items into the game now or in the future. I doubt it will go that way. Valve will just keep putting in the best stuff regardless. Not every partnered item has gone in and third party partnerships can actually a good way for newer artists to break in to the workshop (assuming the quality is acceptable).
  • Lennyagony
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    Lennyagony polycounter lvl 14
    You know i feel this is a healthy discussion for this community to be having, i know i for one share some of the concerns discussed above, while also thinking its brilliant to see additional collaboration options for working with dota 2 teams and organisations.

    Mostly i don't often see marketing strategies discussed, and i feel one of the better ways for singular artists to continue to compete in a highly competitive market is to be transparent, share your marketing and social networking insights and dont let fear shut down your ability to share, to support your community and yourself.

    So to go out on a limb

    Marketing and Social networks i use, have taken an interest in or look like they could.

    VK - sometimes referred to as the Russian version of facebook. I see items drawing large amounts of traffic from VK when they are re posted to a popular dota2 VK community.

    Facebook - looks like a solid way to share your work, i havnt looked into it much yet but i imagine it's a great way to keep in touch with your fan base.

    Tumblr - i started a tumblr page recently and post my items and tutorial videos. Im really liking it, It's not driving huge amounts of views but it gives people an easy way to re post my work if they like it and for me thats what counts.

    Youtube - im really enjoying posting to youtube, mostly people view my tutorial videos and dont follow through to my workshop but all in all its a really rewarding platform, which im looking forward to spending more time with.

    Reddit - seems to be a mixed bag, and rightly so. If you have a quality submission people will come and vote, if they don't like it they will also vote you down and likely tell you about it as well. Which is really how it should be.

    Twitter - not much of a twitter user myself but i do propagate my tumblr posts through to a twitter account. Will spend more time looking into it at some point.

    Twitch TV - streaming your work process. Im yet to stream my work but it looks like other artists have had great success building social followings by going this route.

    CG Hub - just started posting here, and like the ability to show a wip slideshow

    Creating polished Pomo images, i know it's tempting to just post your item on the workshop asap, but it really is so important to have a well put togeather promo image. Mostly you want this so it can be re posted to other social networks by viewers of your workshop and it will be the image that shows up on the dota2 activity panel, often reasonably large.

    Anyway thats about all i have and feel im lacking a fair bit of knowledge in this area, it would be great to hear some of your opinions about the above social networks and ideally you have some of your own to share? i have a hard time tracking down dota 2 centric communities and would love the chance to break into a few more.
  • SemiColonThree
    I think the issue here is that the in game top view lighting in the morning is conflicting w/ the textures, maybe because our textures were too bright. and white light on white textures means the details wont be seen.

    Most of our testing process was done through the portrait view and loadout preview, so from our perspective it looked fine.

    Correct me if im wrong, but im pretty sure they have a lot more depth than they do in game, cause a different light source is being used in the portrait and loadout previews.

    We are workin on darkening all the textures, so we can see the details pop out better in game view.
    F13E9BCC9086A0531AB68A0007AC390DB03FBBF9


    Snowstorm wrote: »
    Listen mate, it's all part of the same issue.

    Just FYI, my post on your thread that is now a one-liner was previously a 3 paragraph scathing critique that I deleted after thinking, "fuck it, this negativity isn't worth it." However now that other people have stood up to critique it too, I know I'm not just being overly critical. Everyone else seemed to love it, so I doubted what I was thinking.

    To sum it up, I think your promotional art is excellent. But I think that set is poor. The shading looks flat in-game, and the masks don't make it look metallic much. The shading issues are very visible on the sword, pauldron and bracer. It's a massive missed opportunity.

    So with that in mind, when you say you "actually put effort in to create a quality set" I'm gonna have to disagree with you. You do stunning promotional work, that I agree with. And your previous sets have been very good, that I also agree with. However this set, promotional material aside I don't think is up to your standards.

    And therein lie all the issues. The first is spectacular promotion blinding workshop voters to the actual quality of the set. This has been an ongoing debate on here for a while now, and some aren't very pleased with it. In the case of this set, I certainly think that the promotion has caused what's an average looking quality set to be catapulted into the realm of what should be only reserved for the very best sets. Compared that to stuff like Jeremy Klein and Anuxi's sets that barely even claim top spots the way yours do. The only other artist I can think of that consistently does that for a full set would be Don Don.

    This is not to slight you or promotional work - it worked great with the Kunkka set, I've got no complaints there. But when it works that well with a set that's not as good, then it starts to look unfair.

    The other thing is the pairing up with organisations to get into the Store. It's an issue because of the beaver, and the HUDs etc that have been getting in through association with small tournaments and whatnot. And since this set is not up to your usual standards, the issue rears its ugly head again here - the association with the organisation is similarly keeping people from voting on the actual quality of the set.

    You might argue that the ends justify the means, and that you know better how to play the workshop. I'm entirely fine with that, I think the promotional work you do is great, and I like looking at it. I enjoy creating such stuff too in fact. I just think that knowing that set isn't as good as it should be, your effort should be in bringing the set up to the standard of your promotional work, rather than justifying the disparity in standard. I'm pretty darned sure if you can do promotional work like that you have the chops to make the set look as spectacular. My questions is if you put in the "actual effort" to make a quality set, why doesn't it?

    Look at it this way, no one complained when Don Don's DK premier league set dominated the top of the charts, and neither did anyone complain when your Kunkka set did so too - because they were superb sets. In fact I took inspiration and learnt from the promotional value of your work. We're artists here, and we like to see art. People are taking issue now because the popularity due to the association with DC doesn't match the quality of that set imo.

    --edit-- What package do you do your work in btw? Could it be that the normals on those pieces are inverted and therefore not shading correctly in-game? Cos the shading on that sword looks borked as hell.
  • mrpresident
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    mrpresident polycounter lvl 10
    I think the issue here is that the in game top view lighting in the morning is conflicting w/ the textures, maybe because our textures were too bright. and white light on white textures means the details wont be seen.

    Most of our testing process was done through the portrait view and loadout preview, so from our perspective it looked fine.

    Correct me if im wrong, but im pretty sure they have a lot more depth than they do in game, cause a different light source is being used in the portrait and loadout previews.

    We are workin on darkening all the textures, so we can see the details pop out better in game view.

    One thing you might want to try is testing each item one by one in-game instead of all at once, and then comparing it to the screens of the full set in-game to see if something is breaking on the import.

    When we were making our alch set, we discovered that sometimes importing the entire set into a game to test it would completely break the mask files on some of the items, making the metalness disappear and all the textures look completely flat compared to the portrait view. You might want to check and make sure that isn't happening before you make any further adjustments.

    Although specular/rimlight ARE stronger in-game than in the portrait and will still brighten things up. One thing you can do on the metal parts is mess around with the alpha channel on mask 2 so that the specular lighting is a more focused dot instead of spread across the entire item, keeping most of the metal the original darker color.
  • Snowstorm
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    Snowstorm polycounter lvl 5
    I think the issue here is that the in game top view lighting in the morning is conflicting w/ the textures, maybe because our textures were too bright. and white light on white textures means the details wont be seen.

    Most of our testing process was done through the portrait view and loadout preview, so from our perspective it looked fine.

    Correct me if im wrong, but im pretty sure they have a lot more depth than they do in game, cause a different light source is being used in the portrait and loadout previews.

    We are workin on darkening all the textures, so we can see the details pop out better in game view.

    That's good to hear.

    The point of reference I used was that shoulder piece, which looks very good in the portrait, but it still looks relatively flat to me in the loadout view. The loadout views definitely look a lot better than the in-game ones, though they still lack some of the metalness and spec by colour I think.

    The loadout and in-game do use a different view and lighting setup, though personally I find that the in-game textures use a higher res and are clearer than the loadout ones. So at least for me I find that my cosmetics actually look better in-game sometimes, even without the LOD0.
  • Vayne4800
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    Vayne4800 polycounter lvl 3
    I strongly believe that Valve gives high regards to ingame quality vs load out.
  • fx01
    @Vayne4800

    of course! but fun is that valve doesnt show ingame screens on their shop just another loadout version


    @motenai thx for the kind words.. and yes i agree with you my colormaps could need some upgrade... i will mark that for myself for my next set / item try to get better :O
  • Chemical Alia
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    Chemical Alia polycounter lvl 7
    I was curious as to whether or not there would be massive drama going on over here today, and was not disappointed.

    My thoughts on the matter are this. Contracting with companies/players is cool, if you get a good with them. Advertising/promoting your work is smart.

    The DotaCinema guys came to some of us artists a few months ago and basically told us they planned to do a long monthly feature on items, if they were allowed to be cut a percentage (and therefore also credit as a contributor). I don't know if this Sven set is the first example of that or what, but it was obviously effective. And yes, this is definitely "a thing".

    So in the future, having to time your submissions AROUND the monthly dotacinema bomb is annoying but manageable. I feel that good sets will always be getting in on merit. But as for the visibility that many artists strive to achieve by being at the top of the workshop, what concerns me is a future where these kinds of ads become a weekly/continual thing. Basically a third party making it so an artist must pay them revenue just to have a shot at the top of the workshop doesn't sit right with me.

    So we'll just see how that goes! :)
  • Drywall
    semicolonthree: your posts sound very defensive and kinda aggressive. I have been accused of that sort of internet behavior in the past, I get where you're coming from. Props for getting Dota Cinema involved, but I really don't think it is standing on it's own legs. I kinda think it woulda made it to the second page of 9, maybe one piece on the top page. That's conjecture, and there's no way of knowing how it would or would not have done without Dota Cinema, so besides my opinion, there's nothing to go by.

    A few of you guys are sounding kinda butthurt about someone having success, but raise some good points of concern for the future of the workshop. Like Chemical said, if Dota Cinema does this like, every week or something, it will take over the workshop, at least for a while. I think they'd wear out their welcome with the workshop community over time, but still, for a few months AT LEAST, they'd own it. I don't see Valve being very happy about that in the long run, though. They're very concerned with the workshop and the contributors, so I don't see them letting third parties take it hostage.

    I don't really like it, but the workshop is currently transitioning towards something new, something more sponsorship driven. I do think, though, that there'll always be room for the sets of individuals, if they stand out. We'll just see what happens I guess!
  • Tamarin
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    Tamarin polycounter lvl 17
    I'm the butthurt guy! I just see artists getting screwed all the time. I guess I feel kinda strongly about this.

    I even wrote a letter to reddit! I've never protested anything in my life so not sure why I'm sticking my heels in here. Maybe it was because for one fleeting second I saw hope for all aspiring artists?

    Here is a link to my letter.

    http://en.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1p9gle/why_dota_cimena_and_other_3rd_parties_should_stay/
  • 7thBattery
    Ultimately, I don't think Valve has compromised quality in these sponsorship deals. Yet. I could make the argument that they have come close to compromising quality in the past though just because an item fits a niche no one has filled, or rounds out a chest nicely just because of the hero/slot it's for. I guess my point is, the decision is really up to them, and for all we know they could really agree with what a lot of people here are saying. Or they could decide they'll make a lot of money off of DC sponsored items and just roll them all in.

    I trust that they are smart guys who know how to keep this train rolling and making it accessible for everyone.

    That said, sorry Vayne4800, but here is me promoting my latest submission without a WIP that will be buried by the corporate monopoly anyway :)

    268x268.resizedimage
  • Snowstorm
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    Snowstorm polycounter lvl 5
    It's an interesting item. Only issue - jewel of the forest is unfortunately the name of a Drow set already in the game :P
  • Nikey
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    Nikey polycounter lvl 10
  • Soldeus
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    Soldeus polycounter lvl 10
    Im here just to cry and say I hate valve, had my skywrath mage staff particles working properly, and since last mega patch they just broke them. And there is no way I can't seem to make them work,(tried both Dota 2 and Dota 2 test, both with requirement page model and decompiled model, nothing works).


    Shame on you Valve xD
  • SemiColonThree
    Drywall wrote: »
    semicolonthree: your posts sound very defensive and kinda aggressive. I have been accused of that sort of internet behavior in the past, I get where you're coming from. Props for getting Dota Cinema involved, but I really don't think it is standing on it's own legs. I kinda think it woulda made it to the second page of 9, maybe one piece on the top page. That's conjecture, and there's no way of knowing how it would or would not have done without Dota Cinema, so besides my opinion, there's nothing to go by.

    A few of you guys are sounding kinda butthurt about someone having success, but raise some good points of concern for the future of the workshop. Like Chemical said, if Dota Cinema does this like, every week or something, it will take over the workshop, at least for a while. I think they'd wear out their welcome with the workshop community over time, but still, for a few months AT LEAST, they'd own it. I don't see Valve being very happy about that in the long run, though. They're very concerned with the workshop and the contributors, so I don't see them letting third parties take it hostage.

    I don't really like it, but the workshop is currently transitioning towards something new, something more sponsorship driven. I do think, though, that there'll always be room for the sets of individuals, if they stand out. We'll just see what happens I guess!

    The reason im defensive is become the person who was complaining wasnt giving actual feedback, he was just flaming.
    If these people can give criticism professionaly then I dont mind it. I will think about it, and accept or reject their ideas.
  • SemiColonThree
    About dota cinema,

    just a wake up call, but for those of you who are complaining about Dota Cinema, you are just lazy communist, and want the workshop to provide equal publicity even to the people who are not working hard enough to get it.

    You know, Dota Cinema didnt magically get 600k subscribers out of thin air. They put sweat and tears into earning it. and you know what? they do deserve to advertise their sets, because they have put in a lot of work to become sucessful in life. I mean come on, they even have a week dota 2 top 5 workshop week episode to help "YOU" guys out, and then you sit there fucking complaining, show some respect... Dota cinema has done A LOT for the dota community.

    This is a democracy here folks, the people who work the hardest willl be rewarded the most.

    Its just like complaining about people not buying your local burgers, because um Mcdonalds buys ads, billboards, etc....... lol, they have this power because they deserve it, end of story.... Maybe one day your local burger joint will become the next fast food franchise... you just have to earn it...

    Right now I can name some workshop artist who could probably compete w/ dota cinema's publicity.. such as kunkka (he got 23000 votes on his loadout screens), Anuxxi, Danidem, tvidotto, etc.....

    If you are worriedd about views, take some advice from Lennyagony.... create blogs, use social media to advertise your set...... eventually your name will grow to the point where you can get 10k+ votes on your own.


    but in all, from the fast few pages the only thing that is correct is what bounchfx said "combine collections into 1 item".. this will make everyone happier.
  • AndrewHelenek
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    AndrewHelenek polycounter lvl 6
    just a wake up call, but for those of you who are complaining about Dota Cinema, you are just lazy communist, and want the workshop to provide equal publicity even to the people who are not working hard enough to get it.

    You know, Dota Cinema didnt magically get 600k subscribers out of thin air. They put sweat and tears into earning it. and you know what? they do deserve to advertise their sets, because they have put in a lot of work to become sucessful in life. I mean come on, they even have a week dota 2 top 5 workshop week episode to help "YOU" guys out, and then you sit there fucking complaining, show some respect... Dota cinema has done A LOT for the dota community.

    "Show some respect" says the guy calling some of the artist on here lazy communist.
    Its just like complaining about people not buying your local burgers, because um Mcdonalds buys ads, billboards, etc....... lol, they have this power because they deserve it, end of story.... Maybe one day your local burger joint will become the next fast food franchise... you just have to earn it...

    Great example there! So let me get this straight, one day I can stop making good burgers in my small little resturant, sign a deal, get some adds, etc, and become a fast food chain where I make poorly made burgers that sell very well because people are blinded by marketing, but in the end make lots of money?
  • Shock
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    Shock polycounter lvl 5
    after all what does all those votes do? i saw valve taking in sets with 40 votes. and i saw projects be in the top3 for some time who never made it into game. all this voteshit is just a manipulation of our own minds. valve takes something in, if they think that it is good and they can make *holla holla dollar* with it - thats all (at least i think so)
  • belkun
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    belkun polycounter lvl 7
    This is a democracy here folks, the people who work the hardest willl be rewarded the most.

    This is not how the Workshop is working right now. As I've said on another post, some amazing and fitting items just disappear after getting positive feedback from the community, while some not so great items get added just because they're partnered with some big name organization. Do you think it's fair that artists need to partner up with someone so they can have a slight chance of having their stuff noticed? I agree that DotaCinema worked hard for their subscribers and whatnot, but this isn't the point. The point is that people like that are using their popularity in order to get anything heavily marketed and then inside the game. This isn't supposed to be about marketing but about artists and their items.

    As a side note, sorry if I sound like an ass, but I think you're coming up as one as well with those posts, being so aggressive and defensive about your items, as if people should be "thankful" that those organizations are using their power to promote Dota items. I can only sense your arrogance when you say that people should "work harder" to get their items noticed. Isn't this the easy way out? Just getting some big name to do the marketing work for you? How is this hard work? I believe that hard work is what you should give to your items.

    Just my two cents.
  • SemiColonThree
    Great example there! So let me get this straight, one day I can stop making good burgers in my small little resturant, sign a deal, get some adds, etc, and become a fast food chain where I make poorly made burgers that sell very well because people are blinded by marketing, but in the end make lots of money?

    WHAT BLASPHEMY!!! MCDONALDS IS AMAZING!!! for its price....

    1$ can get you a whole spicey chicken sandwhich man, with lettuce chicken mayo... also 1$ for a double cheese burgerrr, is really good value there... You can even get any size coke product for 1$ as well!



    but if you are not a fan of mcdonalds, there are other mainstream restuarants you must like right? KFC? Wingers? Rodizios?
  • GhostDetector
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    GhostDetector polycounter lvl 10
    I think this discussion of the workshop/organizations should be in a separate thread.
    But I think (because of this situation) that artists and organizations should no longer be able to submit their name on their products. Meaning they have to submit their work anonymously in the workshop just so people would vote based on quality.

    Person submits item > Workshop keeps author(s) in database(for confirmation on author(s) for portfolio assessment or something)> Voting

    Of course there would always be information on other sites, but in the dota 2 workshop itself, the artists should just be invisible.

    No system is full proof so if anyone gets angry and starts poking some flaws in this, just know that it took me longer to type this than to think of the sytem itself.
  • Hawkseye
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    Hawkseye polycounter lvl 4
    The reason im defensive is become the person who was complaining wasnt giving actual feedback, he was just flaming.
    If these people can give criticism professionaly then I dont mind it. I will think about it, and accept or reject their ideas.

    Been plenty of valid criticism, maybe you are are just in denial about it becuase the criticism is aimed in your direction?
    About dota cinema,

    just a wake up call, but for those of you who are complaining about Dota Cinema, you are just lazy communist, and want the workshop to provide equal publicity even to the people who are not working hard enough to get it.

    No, we just want the workshop (and the revenue) to belong to artists rather than outside organizations and people who just want a cut of the profit.
    You know, Dota Cinema didnt magically get 600k subscribers out of thin air. They put sweat and tears into earning it. and you know what? they do deserve to advertise their sets, because they have put in a lot of work to become sucessful in life. I mean come on, they even have a week dota 2 top 5 workshop week episode to help "YOU" guys out, and then you sit there fucking complaining, show some respect... Dota cinema has done A LOT for the dota community.

    Seriously doubt they put "sweat and tears" into anything. They were the first ones to make some 2 min youtube videos and hero guides and managed to get a bunch of subscribers from it.

    Dont they get enough money from youtube? Do they need to own the workshop too?

    And why is the show called "Top 5 Weekly" when its completely based on their opinion? Instead of "weekly workshop", where they would go through all the stuff that has been submitted in a week and give some critique?

    But hey, i suppose a video longer than 10 min would be too much for them.
    This is a democracy here folks, the people who work the hardest willl be rewarded the most.

    Its just like complaining about people not buying your local burgers, because um Mcdonalds buys ads, billboards, etc....... lol, they have this power because they deserve it, end of story.... Maybe one day your local burger joint will become the next fast food franchise... you just have to earn it...

    Just becuase that is the reality doesnt mean you have to like it. Maybe the local burger joint works harder and has better burgers? Getting the most advertisement has nothing to do with "working hard" or earning and deserving success.
    Right now I can name some workshop artist who could probably compete w/ dota cinema's publicity.. such as kunkka (he got 23000 votes on his loadout screens), Anuxxi, Danidem, tvidotto, etc.....

    If you are worriedd about views, take some advice from Lennyagony.... create blogs, use social media to advertise your set...... eventually your name will grow to the point where you can get 10k+ votes on your own.


    but in all, from the fast few pages the only thing that is correct is what bounchfx said "combine collections into 1 item".. this will make everyone happier.

    And good job calling people lazy communists just because they dont want the workshop to turn into a race of whoever can get the most advertisement by sharing revenue.

    Sry if im raging but this last post by you was just...ugh
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