Getting the form you want out of Zbrush?

DireWolf · Jul 2014

Hi guys. I'm a tech guy trying to learn Zbrush and after 2 whole weeks I still cannot create the form I have in mind. My sculpt looks like a pile of blobs

I'm curious and would like to ask senior Zbrushers out there - how long did it take before you can create the form you want out of Zbrush?

Thanks in advance.

ysalex · Jul 2014

Mastering zbrush takes relatively no time, it's the wrong question. The question is "artists, how long did it take you to master form", and the answer is forever. Zbrush has little to do with it, if you can do it with a pen, you can do it with zbrush (not necessarily the other way around though) - but learning form just takes a long long time.

PyrZern · Jul 2014

I think there are two sides to this.

1. Not understanding the tools and so you use wrong tools for the task. Or simply not properly. Like not changing Z Intensity and such. This is actually not so hard to fix. Watch a few livestreams or timelapse videos to get ideas. Then try to do the same.

2. Not understanding the subject you're creating. Like, sculpting a face or a skull or a hand. This is mostly just about knowledge. Getting good reference and study planes and anatomy to fix it. This is like an on-going thing and it could take a long time to not end up with blob. Drawing and studying forms helps.

One is understanding the tools.
Two is, like ysalex said, understanding form.

pior · Jul 2014

I agree with what Ysalex and PyrZern said ... to an extent

I know it may sound weird, but after years of near daily use of both Zbrush and Mudbox, at work and at home, there are still things I can do fine in one and not in the other, even tho I am using equivalent tools. It's actually super frustrating !! So I would understand the frustration of a beginner when facing a similar problem.

Eyofin · Jul 2014

As someone who had never touched any type of 3d-anything prior to Zbrush, it took me around a month of watching and reading tutorials to feel comfortable with the program itself. I made a point to learn what most of the buttons were, so when I want to do something like make a shirt collar, I have a comfortable idea of the tools and techniques Zbrush offers to accomplish that. So if you're asking how long it takes until Zbrush feels like a familiar program, that's my personal experience.

Now, whether or not that shirt collar really looks like a shirt collar in the end is a different matter. As others have said, that's purely up to the artist's abilities.

Suba · Jul 2014

DireWolf wrote: »

My sculpt looks like a pile of blobs

Yup. That is Zbrush. lol
First thing you have to learn when you use Zbrush is to begin your sculpt in low poly, then when you have the main forms, you can subdivide and work more and more on details. Or else you will create those famous Zbrush blobby sculpts. (I think everyone does when they begin really).

Even if it takes time to know the software, it is cool cause you will see there is so many ways to do one task. I'd say a couple of months of practice and you will love Zbrush.

DireWolf · Jul 2014

Thanks guys. I would like to clarify that my problem is PyrZern's #1. I'm not new to form and have quite a clear picture in mind what I want. However I can't quite recreate them in Zbrush. Even something as simple as, say, a tear drop shape. It's not coming out the way I want.

Perhaps my exercise is a bit too much for a starter - I'm trying to sculpt an upper body. While I know the form of clavicle, know the muscle group around it, have photo reference and an actual ecorche live model right besides me, trying to recreate it in Zbrush is a real struggle.

Maybe I should start with something simpler

Suba · Jul 2014

Do you use basic brushes? Like Move brush, Clay build up, Smooth?

DireWolf · Jul 2014

This is my 5th model, I'm using more and more move brush. Also standard, clay and clay tubes.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ngp38l6yx7rpbv2/clavicle.jpg

I watched Scott Eaton creating forms by cross hatching with clay tubes without ever going to the lower res. It looks really artistic. Very inspiring and I hope I'll get there one day.

BagelHero · Jul 2014

For your fifth try, this really isn't that bad. Just keep practicing, you'll get there.
I don't know if it helps much, because it's pretty vague, but you seem to be copying what you think you see rather than what you're actually seeing.
Sometimes, you just have to feel out the form. Without getting into anatomy, my (edit) surface forms and strokes would have looked a little like this.

Your sculpt is very simplified, like you seem to be doing some translating inbetween identifying the forms and putting them down. Also, it might help to block out a little more at a lower subdiv.

But I dunno man, with a months practice and a background in 2D art I was pretty far behind this point, so it seems like you're doing pretty well for 2 weeks.

It can be frustrating at first, but keep at it and it'll become second nature.

Michael Knubben · Jul 2014

I'd focus on bigger forms first, rather than the subtle flowing, overlapping forms of moderate muscle under skin. Try just making a bunch of character blockouts first, with big interesting shapes. Practice the tools on some wild forms before you get into subtlety, I'd say.

As an example, here's the sort of stuff I do when I only have a few minutes to do a sculpt:

It forces you to forego all subtlety and try to capture a form with broad strokes.

Gestalt · Jul 2014

I generally use the move brush to get things in position, use inflate to add volume (good for pinched areas and adding fat too), clay tubes brush for adding more structure, clay brush for softer structure, trim dynamic (both add and sub) is good for getting a little cleaner, sometimes polish too after that, standard is good when used carefully or at the beginning and damien standard for creases. Be strategic with how you smooth. Things can get mushy when you smooth too much, and it's a hard thing to balance right.

Once you have a basic sculpt it's much easier and faster to move those features around to find the proportions you want. Zbrush can lack a sense of depth perception, so getting the basic shape right can sometimes be deceptively difficult, having to constantly change view, and in some ways it's a skill of its own. If you can start with something that already makes sense in space, even if it's really basic and lacking detail, then that might help you. If you're starting to scratch make sure to get to that point before really going in and trying to sculpt.

pior · Jul 2014

Indeed. Also, turning on the grid lie MP showed and limiting camera rotation to Y-up can make a huge difference.
I do find the move brush to be quite frustrating tho. MoveTopological seems to behave a bit better in some circumstances.

DireWolf · Jul 2014

How do you limit camera's Y axis?

marrakech · Jul 2014

to acheave something pleasing to the viewers eye u need skill.
that means using an tool alot until u control the form ur after and not the tool controling u.
so first learn how to sculpt plane changes using clay tubes or trim dynamic in some areas.
but the magic formula to belivable sculpts isnt the brush ortimeuspent with it.
its the knowlage u hawe about the subject u trying to replicate using the constraints of the software.
so thats why we all fail at the begining. we dont hawe what it takes to see the mistakes.
to do so, to see the mistakes u need to repeat alot the same shapes until u understand them on an simple level.
and unfortunatly i know no shortcut on how to get thos skills and understanding of anatomy(construction pieces) in an short amount of time.
so the road i think all artists hawe to go is create fail reflect on the model and create again and reflect over it again and again and train ur mind to understand those forms.
and ther are alot of other forms out ther u hawe to apply these small steps again and again to understand them and evantualy get good at this craft.

and allweys train ur proportions volumes and siluette.
change the viewing angle alot and dont focus on an area for too long.lock at the model from above and get reffrence of ur subject viewed from above and below.

i hawe seen alot of sculpt styles out there dirty and rough to all the way smooth and clean proces while working on the geometry.
i personaly like this way of sculpting but usind the sdiv levels abit more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RKkrFvWOv44
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hlHLEXkciJI

ErichWK · Jul 2014

I've been using zbrush almost every day at work to make textures. I still have problems getting the shapes I want. It wasn't until recently I moved to organic things. And it's still hard. It just takes practice. One thing I've learned are these things.
1. Don't be afraid to erase and smooth your stuff out. We all make mistakes and it will sometimes to be quicker just to smooth everything out and start over.
2. Your worst sculpts are your best Alphas.

PyrZern · Jul 2014

Also, another thing is to customize your canvas. Get those brushes you use a lot onto the sidemenu or bottom area. Same with many functions you use often. Like Dynamesh, Weld/Mirror and Weld/Mirror, Close Hole, Flip Normal, and so on. You will need them soon.

Also, get used to the idea of masking and polygrouping. They can save you a ton of time.

DireWolf · Jul 2014

thank you everyone. I just grabbed a few tutorials from Gumroad, let's see what I can learn !

denidimochka · Jul 2014

You might be jumping to too many subdiv too quickly. I'd try to stay at the lowest subdiv as long as you can and raise it only when you want to refine something or add detail. It can also depend on what kind of surface you want, hard surfaces can be a bit tricky in zbrush.

DireWolf · Aug 2014

Sorry for the late update.

After 3 weeks of restarting from scratch almost 20 times (plus sculpting random things) I finally got this. Still some errors such as pecs not stretching enough, strange form on the right deltoid and abs being too long, but I'll move on to the next assignment and come back to it with fresher eyes later. ^-^ Crits and comments very welcome!

I couldn't believe how frustrating the first few tries were! Seeing all the master pieces out there, I had quite a hard time looking at my own crappy sculpt.

Would love some crits and comments on another assignment WIP. Please ignore the breasts, also most of the arms, neck and legs will be clipped

Spoon · Aug 2014

I really like your male torso. I was a full enrollment student as well, a couple years ago, and mine didnt look this good .)

Getting the form you want out of Zbrush?

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