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Company wants written tech docs after making tech artists redundant

polycounter lvl 18
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solar polycounter lvl 18
A couple of mates have been made redundant and are both technical artists. They were pretty much the only ones in the company they worked for that knew how to do all the technical stuff, and were the first point of call if any help was needed. They have a few weeks of notice to serve now, and their lead is asking them to write down everything they know and all their technical knowledge.

I was just wondering if anyone has been through something like this before and can give advice?

Seems to me at least one of them should have been kept on in the company if they needed the tech help (no technical artists will be left in the company) and by transferring all their tech expertise the company are basically stealing their skillset?

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  • danshewan
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    danshewan polycounter lvl 8
    Is there a clause in their contract stating anything along these lines?

    If it's documentation relating to proprietary tech, then I'd imagine it'd be more complex due to ownership issues, though it would also be worth reading over their NDA as this might be covered by that as opposed to their contract.

    If they just want step-by-step instructions on how to do stuff or cheat sheets for other personnel, though, I'd say tough shit.

    I'd recommend poring over their contracts and seeing exactly what is defined as company property in terms of the work they've done, and contacting ACAS regarding their rights (if they're in the UK).

    http://www.acas.org.uk/

    Sounds really shady. :shifty:
  • Snacuum
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    Snacuum polycounter lvl 9
    As far as I would see the only things the tech artists should feel obliged (but still not have to) is the instructions for use of the scripts and tools that the tech artists built for the team while working on the project. They shouldn't write down anything that relates to their actual processes and skills used when building these tools and the solving of problems they would perform on a daily basis.
  • Firebert
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    Firebert polycounter lvl 15
    like on the project they worked on, or being a tech artist in general?

    project: yes, i would say no problem. it's only part of the leaving a company thing, even if you are on the short end of the stick.

    tech artist in general: ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm






    howabout no.
  • solar
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    solar polycounter lvl 18
    I think most of it is for generic third party software that was used on the project but also lots of generic stuff too.
  • JO420
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    JO420 polycounter lvl 18
    solar wrote: »
    I think most of it is for generic third party software that was used on the project but also lots of generic stuff too.

    everything they know,thats a bit vauge isnt it?
  • mLink
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    mLink polycounter lvl 10
    Sounds really shady to me.
    I worked at a studio that requested the same thing of the technical artist when he left. So, he left very basic notes about his daily process for the current project, nothing more. If those tech artists want to keep any of their personal value (based on their knowledge) I would say only document the stuff that's needed.
    Keep their hard earned tips-n-tricks and problem solving tactics to themselves, and lend those skills to the next place they end up.
  • Canadian Ink
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    Canadian Ink polycounter lvl 12
    I Would tell them to go F*#@ themselves unless they are keen on not burning any bridges. Past employers can often become future employers....... I would be more inclined to go the bridge burning route though :)
  • Ben Apuna
    I don't know... sounds like a recipe for disaster :(

    I mean you could have all the tech docs in the world but without someone that can interpret them properly and apply the knowledge therein to solve the problems at hand, then what use are they?

    If I was one of them I would write up as thorough documentation as I could for all the tools/plugins/scripts/shaders/etc... that I had made up to that point, wish everyone else on the team "good luck", and that would be about it.

    Seriously, what more can be expected of them? It's not like a bunch of documents is going to be a viable replacement. Two weeks to writeup a career's worth of experience and knowledge? Somehow I don't think that's going to happen...

    And here I thought that technical artists had much more stable employment than standard artists.
  • Calabi
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    Calabi polycounter lvl 12
    They cant write down all their technical knowledge, that might take a while.

    These guys arent too bright, they probably think they get someone cheaper, or are trying to build a robot to do their job. "With these here documents we could rule the world...and fix any pc, but what does build a gui interface in visual basic mean?"

    There knowledge written down wouldnt mean anything, if they want someone to take over they would need to be taught by those two guys, and probably for quite a while depending on the complexity of the system.

    They should just write down the documentation as best they can then laugh when they get the call back.
  • fearian
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    fearian greentooth
    That's pretty awful, they may as well be saying 'look, your fired, but can you teach everything you know to this intern we're paying pittance to fill your position before you leave?'

    BS
  • felipefrango
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    felipefrango polycounter lvl 9
    That's shady indeed, but even if the guys did write every thing they know I doubt it owuld be of much use to anyone else, you can't replace experience with documents. Our TA guy left to work on Canada and I don't think any amount of documentation could replace his ability to resolve problems.
  • Sandro
    "Write down everything you know" sounds extravagant :) I wonder how companies like that survive.

    Especially nowadays, when game development houses that are run properly and are experienced or at least competent go out of business every year.
  • Jeremy Wright
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    Jeremy Wright polycounter lvl 17
    solar wrote: »
    A couple of mates have been made redundant and are both technical artists. They were pretty much the only ones in the company they worked for that knew how to do all the technical stuff, and were the first point of call if any help was needed. They have a few weeks of notice to serve now, and their lead is asking them to write down everything they know and all their technical knowledge.

    This would be my response:
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeN9HvCot6g[/ame]
  • SnowInChina
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    SnowInChina interpolator
    just copy the documentations from every programm your using, that should cover it all
  • Richard Kain
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    Richard Kain polycounter lvl 18
    I had experience similar to this. I was hired by a company to build their website using advanced Flash AS3 programming. After several months of development, I successfully delivered on this. The site had its own custom UI elements, a 3D front-end interface, full video streaming, the works. Shortly after this was completed, the company decided it didn't need my services. They gave me two weeks noticed, and then asked if I could spend that time cooking up some documentation for the new, custom site.

    I'm a really nice guy, so I actually produced the documentation they wanted. This wasn't really because I felt I owed them. It was more due to my desire to complete the project at hand. Having good documentation that makes a product editable and reusable is just good coding practice.

    In the situation you're describing, I think the employees in question would have been entirely justified in "checking out" for their last two weeks. Companies can't expect employees to stay motivated when they know they are on their way out the door.
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 18
    Make it just the basics. And when they have questions and call the former employees. Offer to help them. For $200 an hour.
  • Slum
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    Slum polycounter lvl 18
    It's absolutely something you should do if you're leaving voluntarily - but I dont know about that situation... If you're that important, they should keep you around.
  • Mark Dygert
    Wow someone fell asleep during the asshole boss seminar. "You're fired" comes AFTER "please document everything you do".

    Personally I would be tossed up between being like Richard and finishing the job for the sake of being thorough. OR spending the rest of the time hiding expired meat products in hilarious places. I like oXY's idea but I think maybe they should quit without documenting anything then offer to stay on as contract to do the documentation, with a nice little bump in pay. Someone might call it extortion, I would call it a teaching moment for management...
  • xvampire
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    xvampire polycounter lvl 14
  • jrs100000
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    jrs100000 polycounter lvl 8
    Just throwing this out there...

    If you ignore all standards of brevity and organization, it is pretty easy to spend a couple weeks writing some amazing stream of consciousness tech docs that only an expert at least as knowledgeable as yourself could ever hope to use effectively.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    Well, as far as i know getting laid off is "sorry we have to let you go, here's a couple thousand bux to help you get by" and getting fired is "do not pass go, do not collect $100". So if you're told you're getting laid off in a few weeks you are still employed until that happens and you're eligible to be fired for insubordination.

    <disclamer> I'm drunk right now
  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm interpolator
    write down "everything" is a bit much, but a "knowledge transfer" phase is a pretty common practice to wrap up a job in a professional manner.

    keep in mind, any sort of docs will never replace TA staff who can apply this knowledge and adapt it to solve all kinds of different issues. if that were the case companies wouldn't have to hire TAs in the firstplace ;)
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    <disclamer> I'm drunk right now


    Don't Drink and Post.

    You might spill your drink.
  • crazyfingers
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    crazyfingers polycounter lvl 10
    I'm pretty f'd up so i'm taking that as a dare.

    I've been in a positions where i've had to document certain job practices on the job for potential successors, but at no point was i under the gun or on a two week notice. It's funny but at the time i thought if i did a good job writing up how to train someone to take over my job it would help me move up. bwa ha.
  • Target_Renegade
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    Target_Renegade polycounter lvl 11
    I've had to train someone to take a part of my job, hotel booking - yawn. But I wasn't being made redundant, it was part of restructuring. However, if they had made me redundant and then asked me to train someone, I would tell them where to go.
  • Elyaradine
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    Elyaradine polycounter lvl 11
    Write down everything you know?

    That sounds like an awesome opportunity for, among other things, a rickroll...
  • praetus
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    praetus interpolator
    I may be wrong on this but my understanding was if you plan on filing for unemployment getting laid off normally allows you to collect on this while you may be out of work. If you're fired however you usually cannot.
  • Lamont
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    Lamont polycounter lvl 15
    I would only cover tools I made for the job. Everything else: Google it, as research is part of the battle.
  • kat
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    kat polycounter lvl 17
    Well, as far as i know getting laid off is "sorry we have to let you go, here's a couple thousand bux to help you get by" and getting fired is "do not pass go, do not collect $100". So if you're told you're getting laid off in a few weeks you are still employed until that happens and you're eligible to be fired for insubordination.

    <disclamer> I'm drunk right now
    It's interesting to note the amount of anecdotal evidence to support this type of *blackmail* being used far too regularly.

    Have to echo dans comments on pg1.. also go see a lawyer.
  • jrs100000
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    jrs100000 polycounter lvl 8
    praetus wrote: »
    I may be wrong on this but my understanding was if you plan on filing for unemployment getting laid off normally allows you to collect on this while you may be out of work. If you're fired however you usually cannot.

    Laws vary from state to state, but in most places you have to quit, perform so poorly that they have no choice but to fire you, or commit a felony, in order to be denied unemployment. Do look up your states laws first tho. Some places will let your employer screw you over if they feel like it.
  • Drav
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    Drav polycounter lvl 9
    I'd spend two weeks expressly designing the worst help file ever. Enough content to say you'd tranfered the knowledge, but designed as an Ian Livingstone Fighting Fantasy dice book

    Shader Help.

    Designing a shader See p42......

    p42. Consult Chapter 4.....

    Chapter 4. Shader troubleshooting

    For more info consult Designing a Shader.

    Cue a warm glow that will last for months whenever you think about them trying to follow it :D
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    jrs100000 wrote: »
    Laws vary from state to state, but in most places you have to quit, perform so poorly that they have no choice but to fire you, or commit a felony, in order to be denied unemployment. Do look up your states laws first tho. Some places will let your employer screw you over if they feel like it.

    There are many conditions where you can get unemployment if you quit, its kind of a myth that you can't.
    if you show "good cause" for leaving, you might receive benefits. The problem is that each state defines that term differently. Most states consider "good cause" something the employer has done to cause you to quit your job. But some states say that leaving for personal reasons (like being a caregiver for someone who is ill) is sufficient enough to receive benefits.
  • Mark Dygert
    Drav wrote: »
    I'd spend two weeks expressly designing the worst help file ever. Enough content to say you'd tranfered the knowledge, but designed as an Ian Livingstone Fighting Fantasy dice book

    Shader Help.

    Designing a shader See p42......

    p42. Consult Chapter 4.....

    Chapter 4. Shader troubleshooting

    For more info consult Designing a Shader.

    Cue a warm glow that will last for months whenever you think about them trying to follow it :D
    Tossing grenades into friendly foxholes, is not good way to make friends. Uphold a personal standard and leave the job on good terms, you never know who you'll be working with next when the industry shuffles again.
  • Firebert
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    Firebert polycounter lvl 15
    Vig wrote: »
    Tossing grenades into friendly foxholes, is not good way to make friends. Uphold a personal standard and leave the job on good terms, you never know who you'll be working with next when the industry shuffles again.

    qft
    qft
    qft


    in addition... it's your name you should worry about
  • Gilgamesh
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    Gilgamesh polycounter lvl 12
    I've had to do it before, all I can say is give the bare minimum for them to get by really. I got laid off from a programming position and showed some fresh faced pimply student the basics of what I was doing for the company, but nothing more and they were satisfied (enough to give me a glowing reference), they also called me back to help out for 3-4 days and paid me a hourly rate (which equated to a few weeks pay :P) when the pimply faced youth couldn't do what I was doing. You want to part on good terms because if you actually want to get a job in future, you will be relying on references as well your CV/folio. If you leave in a storm of crap then they certainly are not going to give you a decent ref to your new employer are they?
  • jrs100000
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    jrs100000 polycounter lvl 8
    ZacD wrote: »
    There are many conditions where you can get unemployment if you quit, its kind of a myth that you can't.

    Thats true, but youll have to fight for it. If you need that unemployment check to survive, it doesnt matter much that you could maybe get it in 4-6 months if your documentation is strong enough.
  • Drav
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    Drav polycounter lvl 9
    Vig wrote: »
    Tossing grenades into friendly foxholes, is not good way to make friends. Uphold a personal standard and leave the job on good terms, you never know who you'll be working with next when the industry shuffles again.

    But they're not really friends are they......to further your analogy, your friends have just volunteered you to go over the top on a suicidal charge, but first they want your boots and your socks and Sergeant Jones wants a quick knock off in OP4. Not really cricket is it?

    Ok, ok I get your point, damn you rational level-headed types......
  • Slave_zero
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    Slave_zero polycounter lvl 8
    Imo it is your duty to provide proper documentation of the work you did for the company. Every coder is expected to do the same. So why shouldn't a technical artist be resposible for usefull documentation?

    But in my opinion this covers only the things you did for that company. Documentation of the tools you've created, shaders you wrote and so on.
    If they really ask you to give away everything you know then this sounds really shady and is to certain point absurd. As stated before: A pile of documents with some enlighten ideas on them will mean nothing without someone to use this to the companys advantage.
    But there is nothing wrong with a company expecting you to leave the place and have the work you did for them properly documented.

    Infact depending on your contract you could be sued to provide such documentation.
  • JacqueChoi
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    JacqueChoi polycounter
    Any way they could just give them a few stacks of those 'tech art' books?

    The ones as thick as telephone books?
  • Farfarer
    Generally, when under contract anything you make at all while employed by a company is property of that company. Regardless of what it's for (either personal or professional). Depends on the contract but it's more common than not.

    So if they've written tools or designed pipelines, I think it's only fair they write up documentation on them. It's just good form, both from a "job well done" standpoint and it's manners that when leaving a company you tidy up your loose ends. You don't want to hinder your colleagues even if you harbor ill will to the management. Don't burn bridges :P

    Documenting as much of their own knowledge as they can? Heh, no. If they're apparently no longer required, the knowledge and skills they possess shouldn't be either, right?
  • ae.
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    ae. polycounter lvl 12
    Talon wrote: »
    Generally, when under contract anything you make at all while employed by a company is property of that company. Regardless of what it's for (either personal or professional). Depends on the contract but it's more common than not.

    So if they've written tools or designed pipelines, I think it's only fair they write up documentation on them. It's just good form, both from a "job well done" standpoint and it's manners that when leaving a company you tidy up your loose ends. You don't want to hinder your colleagues even if you harbor ill will to the management. Don't burn bridges :P

    Documenting as much of their own knowledge as they can? Heh, no. If they're apparently no longer required, the knowledge and skills they possess shouldn't be either, right?

    Gotta agree with talon here never burn bridges when leaving/ getting fired from a job, With an industry as small as the one we work in you'll probably be working with the same people again.

    To go out of your way to sabotage something like these tech documents or anything else is not only showing a lack of respect for your colleagues but a lack of normal and fundamental social skills.

    In the end it sucks that your getting laid off but you still need to respect what your doing no matter how angry you are at the company.
  • PixelMasher
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    PixelMasher veteran polycounter
    One of the problems with this industry is tons of people seem to have this huge sense of entitlement as well as massive egos.

    "why should I do this when I am getting laid off?!" well they are still paying you, and generally your employer tells you what to do while at work...so if you are being paid for the next few weeks ofcourse your employer is going to get you to do work that benefits them.

    If you have been making tools and shaders you should have been documenting them since day one really, this industry is so full of tribal style knowledge it makes it ridiculously inefficient at times.

    In my contract it specificly states I should take notes and be able to produce documentation of my work upon request, check many of your's I'm sure there are similar clauses. ofcourse no one usually expects you to keep up on it, but in this situation if their contracts have that in there, I dont think you can really argue.

    where I would draw the line is if they suddenly asked me to learn and document pflow within a week or something like that. If I was being laid off, chances are I wouldnt put in a ton of overtime. But if its some notes on a tool that artists or fellow workers are going to be using after I am gone, then hell yea I'll leave some instructions on how to use it.

    Vig, Talon and Arman hit the nail on the head, this industry is so small, everyone in Vancouver knows everyone else and reputations follow you from one job to the next.

    Being juvenile and an ass in your final days isnt going to make you co-workers want to recommend you or work with you again, sure management might be a bunch of wankers but they are not going to be the ones using the tools and suffering if there is no one who knows how to use them.

    I dont really see what can be lost by dropping the egos, doing the work, shaking hands at the end of your term and leaving with a good impression. Throwing a tizzy fit and sabotaging the project or tools on the other hand will pretty much get you blacklisted in most circles round here.

    on a lighter note, awesome suggestions by many of the PC crew here, if only management would be the ones to have to suffer those means of revenge :D
  • Mark Dygert
    If you have been making tools and shaders you should have been documenting them since day one really, this industry is so full of tribal style knowledge it makes it ridiculously inefficient at times.
    Agreed. Its not in my contract to document everything I do, but I do it anyway. I mostly do it for me, because our production cycle is just long enough to forget how you did it the last time and its easy to overlook tiny tweaks that where made. It helps to write your process down, you end up thinking it over and obvious ways to work better come to light. It also comes in real handy when we pull in some contractors for a while or I have to train someone new.

    "Here read and follow this, if you have any questions, read it again".

    Is a lot easier than:

    "ok... so watch me for the next 3 weeks and keep pestering me with questions, oh and when I get pissed and snap your neck because I FORGOT to tell you something, don't take it personally".
  • danshewan
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    danshewan polycounter lvl 8
    The thing is, the way the OP phrased it suggests that his friends' lead is expecting more than just documentation relating to either proprietary work, or custom shaders they will continue to use after they leave or whatever.

    I'm all about professionalism and doing the right thing, but the way he described the situation says they expect significantly more from the soon-to-be redundant technical artists than they're reasonably expected to provide, contractually or not. Who knows, that might not be the case.

    It doesn't really help this discussion that the affected artists aren't asking themselves, and explaining exactly what their lead expects, but acting in a courteous, professional manner doesn't necessarily have to mean they should bring their own jars of Vaseline to work on their last day, nor does it necessarily make them bad employees if they don't.

    There's certainly nothing unprofessional about knowing what's right, what's expected, and what your rights are.
  • Saiainoshi
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    Saiainoshi polycounter lvl 9
    Smile, nod, and do your job as best as you can. It sucks, but that's the industry sometimes. Let the company figure out the mess they made once you and the other tech artist leave. That way you don't step on any toes, and you leave with a good rapport.
  • D4V1DC
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    D4V1DC polycounter lvl 18
    danshewan wrote: »
    Is there a clause in their contract stating anything along these lines?

    If it's documentation relating to proprietary tech, then I'd imagine it'd be more complex due to ownership issues, though it would also be worth reading over their NDA as this might be covered by that as opposed to their contract.

    If they just want step-by-step instructions on how to do stuff or cheat sheets for other personnel, though, I'd say tough shit.

    I'd recommend poring over their contracts and seeing exactly what is defined as company property in terms of the work they've done, and contacting ACAS regarding their rights (if they're in the UK).

    http://www.acas.org.uk/

    Sounds really shady. :shifty:

    /\ All of this, I see more of these shady acts happening you guys better find a lawyer quick to review and prevent this from happening to you. I was at an art house where this happen, next thing you know no more work came from them and they weren't being let go. Speaking from experiance here, watch out!
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