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daniellooartist polycounter lvl 11
Hello everyone. I'm making an effort to optimize the amount of time it takes to create assets. I'm not to familiar with how long something should take. I spoke to a student at Gnomon who mentioned that a prop will take 2-3 days for an assignment. I have made 2 props so far. The second prop took me 6 days to make and that's after aggressively half-assing a substantial portion of the work.

2 days was unheard of for me. I literally did not believe her when she told me this yet consensus from other members on the forum made it abundantly clear that this was the norm. Students have other assignments they need to stay on top of. I live alone, play zero games and watch zero movies and only communicate via Skype and Facebook. On top of that I have all the time in the world and it still takes me way to long. It won't take a genius to come to the conclusion that I'm doing something wrong.

I would like to know why this is. So prop guys, how do you divide up your time? Do you do modeling on day 1 and texturing and lighting day 2? Do you have a schedule for how long each aspect of the pipeline should take? The reason I ask is because I plan on timing myself and comparing. I can isolate which aspect of the pipeline I am doing wrong.

Example: It used to take me an entire day to bake out my special maps but a user mentioned that this process only took him a couple of hours. I sent him my work and we compared workflows. The difference between me and him was the amount of time fixing cage errors in xNormal. The difference between our cages is that he triangulated the cage mesh and that somehow fixes all those "Voodoo errors" errors xNormal would throw back at me. I hope I can turn 6 days into 3.

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  • JonathanLambert
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    JonathanLambert polycounter lvl 6
    There are too many variables to give a simple answer. It sounds like you may be obsessing over small details instead of finishing the asset. If you are working on a portfolio piece, then you have all the time in the world and you can afford to polish it. If you are working on an asset with a tight deadline and a limited budget, you have to make sacrifices in quality in order to deliver the art on time and with an appropriate price tag. It pains me to deliver art that I could've made better, but in the end, the client dictates the budget and therefore the quality standards.
  • EarthQuake
    Worry less about time, and make more assets. There is nothing like relentless repetition to hone your workflow.

    It's good to identify where you are slow and how to improve, but at the end of the day, you'll get faster by practicing more, the more experience you have, the easier it is to solve common problems and troubleshoot issues.

    You shouldn't be spending a day tweaking your cage, that seems like you have some fundamental problems when it comes to understanding how normal maps work. Check the stickied threads in the tech talk section.
  • daniellooartist
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    daniellooartist polycounter lvl 11
    Thanks for the response. EarthQuake, I share your thread with many artist very frequently. I am no longer having the problems I mentioned. One minute the bake works fine, the next minute doing something as simple as translating a few verts on the cage and re-exporting somehow "changes my topology." or "changes my vert count." Triangulating the low poly and using the triangulated mesh as my cage somehow makes all my meshes bake error free. I have zero idea as to why this makes everything less error prone but if it works, I'm happy.

    But if I've been doing cages wrong this whole time, then that begs the question: what else am i doing horribly wrong? Next asset I'll log my time and upload my sheet.
  • daniellooartist
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    daniellooartist polycounter lvl 11
    I should also mention the reason I am asking this. I am modeling to get better at the most effective rate possible, not just for fun anymore. When I model for fun I end up spending months on a single project and i don't really get better. The hangout group can attest to this.
  • EarthQuake
    Yeah thats a good idea, then you can see where you're spending the most time.

    Rather than tell you how much time I spend, I'll break down my basic process for hard surface stuff:

    1. Blockout, get the proportions sorted out with basic geometry before you commit to detailing. The more detail you do here, the more time you can save in the highpoly
    2. Highpoly, with the highpoyl already set, this is mostly a matter of adding support loops or modeling finer details, floaters, etc
    3. Lowpoly, start from either hte highpoly cage, blockout, or remodel sections that are very complex in high but will have basic shape in low
    4. Simple uvs, no final packing yet
    5. Testbakes, bake sure you don't have any projection errors or any other issues, if so, cut in some geometry to fix in the lowpoly geometry, make any highpoly changes to improve bakes at this point as well
    6. Final uv packing
    7. Final bakes, including material mask bake (assign a colored material to each material type on the highpoly)
    8. Base materials, get your material read down with simple mats, usually just basic colors for difffuse/spec/gloss, maybe some overlays for surface types that need it
    9. Final detailing, wear, unique stuff, etc for the texture
  • daniellooartist
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    daniellooartist polycounter lvl 11
    That is pretty much how I break it down. I even make it an effort to take 20 minute "internet breaks" in between each of those steps. I just wish I could spy on some art student using Maya and be like, "So how are you doing this in just 2 days and making it look not-rushed?" Vitaly Bulgarov actually did record his progress via video and I noticed he was using premade parts from previous models to make things go faster. That alone helped me a bunch.

    I'm sure you get this a lot, but I'm a big fan of your work and contributions EarthQuake
  • Meloncov
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    Meloncov greentooth
    I have made 2 props so far.

    Dude, of course it's going slowly. Once you've made two hundred the pace will pick up.
  • daniellooartist
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    daniellooartist polycounter lvl 11
    I've actually been modeling for 6 years. I'm trying to pick up a curriculum. I don't feel like I'm learning as fast as I'm supposed to. I've made countless other props. I don't think "repetition" is as valid an answer as me just doing thing wrong and using poor practices this whole time. I've had this account for awhile but I've been seriously active on polycount for a month.
  • loggie24
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    loggie24 polycounter lvl 3
    I've actually been modeling for 6 years. I'm trying to pick up a curriculum. I don't feel like I'm learning as fast as I'm supposed to. I've made countless other props. I don't think "repetition" is as valid an answer as me just doing thing wrong and using poor practices this whole time. I've had this account for awhile but I've been seriously active on polycount for a month.
    I feel ya. Been like that myself for a while, just keep making things and trowing them away practically wasting my time. In the end it comes down to studying what you want to make, take your time. If you maybe start getting frustrated stop and continue on the next day. Maybe take a break from modeling and do something else, try and find inspirations by watching movies, playing games and maybe spending a bit more time outside.

    I know it's really tough sometimes. Myself i have been doing general environment art for two years now, and the past year i feel like i almost not progressed even though i have.
  • Wolthera
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    Wolthera polycounter lvl 5
    I've actually been modeling for 6 years. I'm trying to pick up a curriculum. I don't feel like I'm learning as fast as I'm supposed to. I've made countless other props. I don't think "repetition" is as valid an answer as me just doing thing wrong and using poor practices this whole time. I've had this account for awhile but I've been seriously active on polycount for a month.
    But is that so bad though?

    What's more likely going on is that you are still developing a feel for certain workflows, and don't yet have the type of decision making skills that allow you to quickly realise 'hey, this'll go wrong this way, let's do it that way': You're really deliberating.

    What you can do about this is to do a screenrecording of yourself and then play in back in fast forward later to see the weak parts. But also to see what you do right: Maybe you are really good at UVs or something.

    Then, after identifying it, it helps to figure out why the mistakes you make cause errors. If you have a bad cage, why is it a bad cage, can you visualise how the rays go with baking?

    I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to be a bit slower in the learning process. Experts tend not to be people who do everything right the first time, but rather the people who know how to deal with all the ways it can go wrong. Because in the field, things will go wrong and fixing it is the largest part of your day job.
  • WarrenM
    I generally take a few minutes every Sunday and think back on the work week. What slowed me down? What was annoying or cumbersome? And then I try and do something about it - a new hot key, a new pie menu, or whatever.

    Over time, that adds up.
  • beefaroni
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    beefaroni sublime tool
    EarthQuake wrote: »
    1. Blockout, get the proportions sorted out with basic geometry before you commit to detailing. The more detail you do here, the more time you can save in the highpoly
    2. Highpoly, with the highpoyl already set, this is mostly a matter of adding support loops or modeling finer details, floaters, etc
    3. Lowpoly, start from either hte highpoly cage, blockout, or remodel sections that are very complex in high but will have basic shape in low
    4. Simple uvs, no final packing yet
    5. Testbakes, bake sure you don't have any projection errors or any other issues, if so, cut in some geometry to fix in the lowpoly geometry, make any highpoly changes to improve bakes at this point as well
    6. Final uv packing
    7. Final bakes, including material mask bake (assign a colored material to each material type on the highpoly)
    8. Base materials, get your material read down with simple mats, usually just basic colors for difffuse/spec/gloss, maybe some overlays for surface types that need it
    9. Final detailing, wear, unique stuff, etc for the texture

    To add. With 3DS Max and the double smooth method, try to build the low poly while you're doing the high poly. If there's a cylinder, build it with how many sides you want in the low poly.

    That alone has saved a ton of time for me. In some cases I just turn off both of my turbosmooths and the low poly is finished.
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    Generally for me, a good subdiv mesh doesn't necessarily make a good low polymesh. I do like figuring out some of my lowpoly details while making the highpoly. I always like to think you are making your highpoly for your lowpoly, not the other way around.
  • EarthQuake
    Yeah, generally when you sub-divide your mesh, the resulting smoothing mesh shrinks a little, so you have to keep that in mind with your lowpoly. If you want to it match up correctly, you'll usually need to do a bit more work than simply reusing the cage mesh.
  • Lamont
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    Lamont polycounter lvl 15
    EarthQuake wrote: »

    5. Testbakes, bake sure you don't have any projection errors or any other issues, if so, cut in some geometry to fix in the lowpoly geometry, make any highpoly changes to improve bakes at this point as well

    Trademark that. Bake-Sure: The be all, end all texture map baking tool.
  • EarthQuake
  • Bek
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    Bek interpolator
    the freelance version can be bake-lite
  • mzprox
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    mzprox polycounter lvl 5
    EarthQuake wrote: »
    Yeah, generally when you sub-divide your mesh, the resulting smoothing mesh shrinks a little, so you have to keep that in mind with your lowpoly. If you want to it match up correctly, you'll usually need to do a bit more work than simply reusing the cage mesh.

    That's why I usually apply a shrink wrap on my low poly (targeting the subd high poly).. or is it a bad idea?
  • dzibarik
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    dzibarik polycounter lvl 10
    mzprox wrote: »
    That's why I usually apply a shrink wrap on my low poly (targeting the subd high poly).. or is it a bad idea?

    it's a good idea if it nets you a result you're after.
  • GhostDetector
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    GhostDetector polycounter lvl 10
    EarthQuake wrote: »
    Yeah thats a good idea, then you can see where you're spending the most time.

    Rather than tell you how much time I spend, I'll break down my basic process for hard surface stuff:

    1. Blockout, get the proportions sorted out with basic geometry before you commit to detailing. The more detail you do here, the more time you can save in the highpoly
    2. Highpoly, with the highpoyl already set, this is mostly a matter of adding support loops or modeling finer details, floaters, etc
    3. Lowpoly, start from either hte highpoly cage, blockout, or remodel sections that are very complex in high but will have basic shape in low
    4. Simple uvs, no final packing yet
    5. Testbakes, bake sure you don't have any projection errors or any other issues, if so, cut in some geometry to fix in the lowpoly geometry, make any highpoly changes to improve bakes at this point as well
    6. Final uv packing
    7. Final bakes, including material mask bake (assign a colored material to each material type on the highpoly)
    8. Base materials, get your material read down with simple mats, usually just basic colors for difffuse/spec/gloss, maybe some overlays for surface types that need it
    9. Final detailing, wear, unique stuff, etc for the texture

    Why test bakes though? Once you finish the final UV important errors would be clearly visible.

    I usually do
    UV
    cage,
    test bake,
    if there are any errors, if there are I'd add some blockers.
    final bake.

    Side Note:

    What about leaves or other very flat surfaces? (I do see that you said that this method is for hard surfaces but I don't know the process of thin surfaces)
  • EarthQuake
    Test bakes before final uv packing, because if you find some major problem that requires you to change how you've laid out your uvs (say you need to add some hard edges, and thus split up uv islands) that may require you to make big changes to your uv layout, so its better if thats not locked down at that point.
  • Axcel
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    Axcel polycounter lvl 14
    I wanted to make a similar topic, but maybe I will join to this one.
    I know there is no simple answer, but on last interview I was asked how long it would take me to make a prop or a weapon.
    Next-gen assets, highly detailed, like most of things in a production of AAA titles right now.
    Unfortunately it seems I am too slow and now I wonder, generally, how fast top artists are.
    Any straight answer? ;) Being an interviewer you are expecting some. hehe
  • Anuxinamoon
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    Anuxinamoon polycounter lvl 14
    You need to sit down and set out what you want to do.

    EG: I want to Speed up my high poly creation.

    Just find something, and make highpolies of it. 5-6 Just make a bunch.
    Now you can't tell me that by the 3rd clone, you haven't gotten faster. 1 cause you know the object so well you could make it without reference, and 2. because you know what not to do.

    Do the same thing for your low poly/retopo. Again notice by the 3rd or 4th clone you are miles faster than when you started.

    Keep doing this for each step.

    Then at the end, try to find what is is that still slows you down, try to google problem solve, post your art on PC, ask for tips. You gotta have a kind of lazy annoyance for things. Lazy people find shortcuts to help them reach their end goal faster, or more efficiently. Think, "I don't wanna take 10 minutes to do this, can't I find a way to do it in 5?"

    You can then start setting yourself hard goals. Have 5 concepts ready. Say each prop is going to be 2 days of my time. Post it on polycount

    if you don't finish a prop in the allotted time, stop working on it and move on. See how much faster you are by prop 5.

    You have to do these kinds of exercises to get better, and then your speed will naturally get better.
  • slosh
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    slosh hero character
    I've actually been modeling for 6 years. I'm trying to pick up a curriculum. I don't feel like I'm learning as fast as I'm supposed to. I've made countless other props. I don't think "repetition" is as valid an answer as me just doing thing wrong and using poor practices this whole time. I've had this account for awhile but I've been seriously active on polycount for a month.

    I think you've nailed it on the head here. You've only been active on polycount for a month. For any assets you're working on now and in the future, post updates constantly on here. People should be quick to point out if you are doing something wrong. The easiest way to get faster is to get an industry gig cuz you will learn all the little things that make the process go faster. I actually don't think you should worry too much about speed. Quality is way more important for an artist trying to break into the industry. I was not the fastest before I got my first gig and I certainly wasn't very fast before getting my first next gen gig. But I tried to hit a certain bar of quality to give myself a chance at getting a job. Once you're in, you learn stuff REALLY FAST and you get 10x faster before you know it. I promise you, if you were to get a job in the industry, you would probably be doing those assets you fret about in 2 days before you knew it. So, while efficiency IS important, don't rush just to try and finish something that someone tells you they do in 2 days. Make it looks REALLY good and then figure out small things to help it go faster the next prop you work on.
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    I did a video tutorial for 3d motive where I built a simple prop on camera in about 8 hours. That is while trying to talk and not editing out any of the process. It's kind of tedious to watch someone work for that long but it might help you out.
    http://3dmotive.com/series/the-briefcase-workflow.html

    I find that I work fastest when I can conceptualize the entire process from start to finish at once. That takes practice but at some point you will be able to plan several steps ahead and optimize your effort for the end goal.
  • BradMyers82
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    BradMyers82 interpolator
    Didn't read thru all the comments, I saw there was already some really good ones tho. My advice, besides the obvious of keep practicing is to take time to setup hotkeys and customize ui, etc.

    I have been using this n52 gamer pad te for the last 7 years I've worked in the game industry for example. I actually own 3 of them so I have one at each job site (I work at 2 locations) and 1 at home. I don't know a lot of people that use this sort of thing, but for me its really helped a lot with speed. Bascially I can map any key to it and it frees up my right hand for the mouse or stylus. Everything is accessible from my left hand alone in terms of shortcuts and to me its a lot more comfortable than having my hand at the keyboard. You have to go strictly off memorization cause the keys don't have letters, but once you get used to it its super fast. Anyway, this isn't for everyone, but its just one example how you can take time to improve your speed in the long run. It took me about a week to setup my gamerpad and get used to it, and I still tweak things every now and then.

    But to become fast it just takes time. You get used to ui, workflow, and simply your brain starts working two steps ahead where you are unable to do that at first. If you have ever seen a really talented concept artist work, its like every stroke is perfect or they get from point a to point b extremely fast due to efficiency. Something like that just takes time and some are faster learners than others. I consider myself a tad on the slow side, but I just work more than others and it makes up for it. Keep at it dude, you will speed up over time!
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