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Just a warning for fellow freelancer

polycounter lvl 5
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kovacki polycounter lvl 5
I don't know if this is right place but just a WARNING for fellow freelancers.

Stay away from company Creatives in the attic.
I did freelancing for them and they end up owning me payment for 2 projects. They stopped answering emails and banned me from their private forum.

Please spread the word i don't want anyone to get burned like i did.

Replies

  • Cremuss
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    Cremuss polycounter lvl 12
    I'm sorry to hear that :(
    Next time, ask to be paid first before starting to work if it's a paid-per-job model. Or ask for an advance if it's some kind of hourly contract ! Protect yourself !

    Thanks for the word
  • Rurouni Strife
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    Rurouni Strife polycounter lvl 10
    Thanks for the heads up!
  • pmiller001
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    pmiller001 greentooth
    Thanks for the headsup Kocacki!
  • MmAaXx
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    MmAaXx polycounter lvl 10
    too bad.... added to the blacklist!
  • Zack Maxwell
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    Zack Maxwell interpolator
    I wonder if there's some sort of online blacklist one could reference before accepting a job. Would be very helpful to avoid stuff like this.
  • Joao Sapiro
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    Joao Sapiro sublime tool
    do you have legally bound contracts ? anything that proves that you entered on a paying deal with them ? if yes then i would recomend setlling this on a court of law on your country without envolving a public forum , they might sue you for slander .

    if not , well , let it be a lesson ;)
  • kovacki
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    kovacki polycounter lvl 5
    Yes i do have evidence and contracts and i'm talking with my lawyer. As i said this is just a warning to all other freelancers. Nobody need to get this kind of lessons, being freelancer is hard enough by itself.
  • StephenVyas
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    StephenVyas polycounter lvl 18
    Sorry to hear about the situation. It happens sometimes. How you move forward is your choice.

    To help protect ourselves from future situations... there are a couple ways to prevent this from happening.

    If we're dealing with a company we've never worked with before, here's one method for maintaining a professional relationship while still making sure a payment is made for the asset.

    •Provide video or pictures of the completed asset before sending it to them.
    •If any revisions need to be made. Rinse and Repeat. Hold onto the asset until they sign-off on it.

    •Once they sign off on the asset, request a payment before the asset is delivered.
    If they refuse, make strange excuses. Wish them well and if they change their mind, the asset will be available for delivery the moment the payment has been received. Then walk away.
    I know. It's tough to do, but in the long run .. it's a timesaver & stressbuster overall

    If the company is reputable, disregard the previous ^
  • fdfxd2
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    fdfxd2 interpolator
    I get burned all the time, just learn to toughen up your skin...
    then you should be fine :)
  • kanga
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    kanga quad damage
    Sorry to hear about the situation. It happens sometimes. How you move forward is your choice.

    To help protect ourselves from future situations... there are a couple ways to prevent this from happening.

    If we're dealing with a company we've never worked with before, here's one method for maintaining a professional relationship while still making sure a payment is made for the asset.

    •Provide video or pictures of the completed asset before sending it to them.
    •If any revisions need to be made. Rinse and Repeat. Hold onto the asset until they sign-off on it.

    •Once they sign off on the asset, request a payment before the asset is delivered.
    If they refuse, make strange excuses. Wish them well and if they change their mind, the asset will be available for delivery the moment the payment has been received. Then walk away.
    I know. It's tough to do, but in the long run .. it's a timesaver & stressbuster overall

    If the company is reputable, disregard the previous ^
    Best advice you will ever get. Remember that most of your work as a freelancer is to find good clients and the above device is an excellent way to weed out those that would do you harm and very effective if you are a small operation.
  • kolayamit
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    kolayamit polycounter lvl 13
    nice points StephenVyas, thank you.
    Sorry to hear about the situation. It happens sometimes. How you move forward is your choice.

    To help protect ourselves from future situations... there are a couple ways to prevent this from happening.

    If we're dealing with a company we've never worked with before, here's one method for maintaining a professional relationship while still making sure a payment is made for the asset.

    •Provide video or pictures of the completed asset before sending it to them.
    •If any revisions need to be made. Rinse and Repeat. Hold onto the asset until they sign-off on it.

    •Once they sign off on the asset, request a payment before the asset is delivered.
    If they refuse, make strange excuses. Wish them well and if they change their mind, the asset will be available for delivery the moment the payment has been received. Then walk away.
    I know. It's tough to do, but in the long run .. it's a timesaver & stressbuster overall

    If the company is reputable, disregard the previous ^
  • Michael Knubben
    They were already on my blacklist because they wouldn't commit to *any* limit on unpaid revisions, with the reasoning being 'you may have followed the brief perfectly, but if the customer isn't happy...'
    That was a huge red flag to me, so I decided not to work with them.
  • Aabel
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    Aabel polycounter lvl 6
    I am curious if anyone has looked into using an escrow service? This one seems like it would fit for online freelancing: milestone escrow.

    Curious what freelancers thoughts are on such a thing, I've been reading up on autonomous organizations, and digital escrow lately for a business project, and the lack of escrow in CG related industries seems really puzzling to me. Escrow is used in a lot of other businesses to great success.
  • MagicSugar
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    MagicSugar polycounter lvl 10
    MightyPea wrote: »
    They were already on my blacklist because they wouldn't commit to *any* limit on unpaid revisions,

    TIP for contract users: Change Authorization Form

    http://pushingpoints.com/v2/changes/
    As long as it’s clearly defined, any changes that fall outside of the contract should be greeted with a change authorization form. Even if you don’t plan on charging the client for the changes, it’s a good idea to formally document them so you can track any and all changes that may come up during production. It’s a great resource that has saved my butt several times when a client asks “Why did you change that?” or “Who approved this change?” The form will clearly show why changes were made, who approved them, and how it has affected the project’s time and budget.
  • prototyp3
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    prototyp3 polycounter lvl 17
    I've never used escrow, has anyone here? It always seemed like adding an unnecessary layer of paperwork and fees, but I guess it's easy to say that until you get burned.

    I don't really like the "holding assets hostage" scenario. After all, if they don't have the money - you've still wasted your time. New clients have to pay a deposit up front to secure your time. If they don't understand that, I'm not sure they're the sort of clients you want to begin a relationship with.
  • Blaisoid
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    Blaisoid polycounter lvl 7
    Yeah but the whole point is, money is being held hostage too.
    I'm sure client can retrieve it eventually in case of conflict but it's probably time consuming, requires writing explanations etc.
    The system seems designed in a way that makes it easier for 2 sides to reach some kind of agreement than break the "contract".

    I used escrow once and there were no problems, but it only makes sense to use it if client insists on it and you can't afford to lose him.
  • MagicSugar
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    MagicSugar polycounter lvl 10
    Don't get victimized.

    Deposit upfront before any work begins.

    Milestone payment before release of finished assets. Send low fidelity proof of completion.

    When dealing with an established company, get payment terms in writing. Everything is negotiable before you sign any contract.

    If you have a soft heart for strangers as a freelancer you're bound to get cheated and disrespected.
  • Aabel
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    Aabel polycounter lvl 6
    Escrow protects both sides. You don't start work until the money agreed upon has been deposited into escrow and the escrow agent verifies it.

    If you are working with a new client and you are not sure if they are going to be able to pay or not, try using an escrow service. At worst you will find out they never had money to pay you before you start the job.
  • MagicSugar
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    MagicSugar polycounter lvl 10
    Escrow still give leverage to abusers by them having the option to decline release of funds if, for any random reason, they're not satisfied with your work.

    Equals, you just wasted your time or you got punked.

    Versus, upfront deposit and acceptance of YOUR prefered payment terms. It signifies that your dealing with a serious and more importantly funded client.

    Like I said, if you're soft you will be screwed.
  • Aabel
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    Aabel polycounter lvl 6
    MagicSugar wrote: »
    Escrow still give leverage to abusers by them having the option to decline release of funds if, for any random reason, they're not satisfied with your work.

    Equals, you just wasted your time or you got punked.

    Versus, upfront deposit and acceptance of YOUR prefered payment terms. It signifies that your dealing with a serious and more importantly funded client.

    Like I said, if you're soft you will be screwed.


    Escrow can work on a milestone structure. Client pays entire cost up front into escrow account, escrow agent verifies the funds, then you get paid as milestones are met. If the client gets funky midway through and refuses to approve anymore milestones, well at least you got paid for previous milestones.

    Whether to use escrow or not is a personal choice, but it significantly lowers the risk of doing business when you have to rely on unknown parties.
  • MagicSugar
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    MagicSugar polycounter lvl 10
    If potential client is still not ready to commit even after viewing your portfolio, resume/references, and knowing your price point negotiate for a paid art test.

    If they waiver they're not serious and just testing if they can play you.
  • shabba
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    shabba polycounter lvl 15
    I'm assuming that maybe b/c of the multiple revisions that maybe the OP was unable to satisfy the client to the quality that they were looking for? I don't think OP stated a reason for not being paid did they? But if you can't ship on an asset to standards, you wont be paid.

    A few of my friends and myself have worked /w the CIA on multiple projects in the past, they are an established company that works on a variety of quality projects in AAA games and other fields. They were very professional. Payment was received upon the clients approval of a grouping of assets. So to completely discredit them on the basis of one contractors experience would be short sighted. Especially because there were a multitude of artists who were unable to produce the level of quality work expected despite their portfolios/promises, during my time with their team.

    So not sure what my opinion is worth, but I would take this warning against the CIA with a grain of salt, and do your due diligence before accepting work with any potential clients as many posters here have outlined. The CIA is ok in my books.
  • MagicSugar
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    MagicSugar polycounter lvl 10
    shabba wrote: »
    Especially because there were a multitude of artists who were unable to produce the level of quality work expected despite their portfolios/promises, during my time with their team.

    But the exploit here is this company got assets, correct? Assets they can roll to stronger artist to clean up, retopo or whatever. Or even include for free for their own client deliverables.

    Where's the accountability for the original artists? Are they just hiring mediocre guys, set them to fail, and get work (however shabby) for free?
  • xChris
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    xChris polycounter lvl 9
    Sorry to hear about the situation. It happens sometimes. How you move forward is your choice.

    To help protect ourselves from future situations... there are a couple ways to prevent this from happening.

    If we're dealing with a company we've never worked with before, here's one method for maintaining a professional relationship while still making sure a payment is made for the asset.

    •Provide video or pictures of the completed asset before sending it to them.
    •If any revisions need to be made. Rinse and Repeat. Hold onto the asset until they sign-off on it.

    •Once they sign off on the asset, request a payment before the asset is delivered.
    If they refuse, make strange excuses. Wish them well and if they change their mind, the asset will be available for delivery the moment the payment has been received. Then walk away.
    I know. It's tough to do, but in the long run .. it's a timesaver & stressbuster overall

    If the company is reputable, disregard the previous ^

    This is great, along with what every else has chimed in on!

    Usually I will take a good amount of screen shots, or a video, and request a percentage up front. I also started bringing in a 3 time revision structure, because sometimes people can get really picky, or they like to split atoms about details/change the style on their end, but if its something that I did wrong on my part I'll usually take care of it, its to your best judgement.

    Sorry to hear about this man, hopefully it gets settled in a professional manner!
  • shabba
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    shabba polycounter lvl 15
    MagicSugar wrote: »
    But the exploit here is this company got assets, correct? Assets they can roll to stronger artist to clean up, retopo or whatever. Or even include for free for their own client deliverables.

    Where's the accountability for the original artists? Are they just hiring mediocre guys, set them to fail, and get work (however shabby) for free?

    No exploit at all, I would never upload or submit an asset until it got final approval. I would always take a multitude of screenshots/renders from my applications, and in game. Duplicating and rotating the asset in a variety of views, giving as much exposure as possible. When I worked, others did the same. Nothing was submitted until approved /w no more change requests.

    I feel like the artist is responsible for protecting themselves as well, to avoid putting themselves in situations where they can be exploited like that. But in my experience, this was not the case.
  • CreativeSheep
  • Moonshank
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    Moonshank polycounter lvl 7
    I have worked alongside Shabba with CIA in the past and up until recently been with them for over 2 years as a freelancer. I will say this I have had issues with this last project in reciving payment. Like OP I'm having to go the route of legal action etc. Though I will say that up until this project things were always fine. Payments were always on time and I have never had an issue. So with all other comments just be aware of whats going on. My reason for no longer working with them is because of going full time in house otherewise I would still consider working with them but I would be dobious depending on the project and what was being requested of me.
  • Farfarer
    shabba wrote: »
    I'm assuming that maybe b/c of the multiple revisions that maybe the OP was unable to satisfy the client to the quality that they were looking for? I don't think OP stated a reason for not being paid did they? But if you can't ship on an asset to standards, you wont be paid.

    A few of my friends and myself have worked /w the CIA on multiple projects in the past, they are an established company that works on a variety of quality projects in AAA games and other fields. They were very professional. Payment was received upon the clients approval of a grouping of assets. So to completely discredit them on the basis of one contractors experience would be short sighted. Especially because there were a multitude of artists who were unable to produce the level of quality work expected despite their portfolios/promises, during my time with their team.

    So not sure what my opinion is worth, but I would take this warning against the CIA with a grain of salt, and do your due diligence before accepting work with any potential clients as many posters here have outlined. The CIA is ok in my books.
    No, if you're a studio and you hire someone to make artwork for you to sell on to a client, you pay them for it.

    If it's not good enough or you don't like them, cut the contract short and pay them for what they've done so far.

    If you don't think they can produce the work to standard, you don't hire them.

    Especially if you're an outsource house that deals with many freelancers all day long, you should be able to distinguish artists working to your required standards from artists who are not.

    If you can't, it's on your head, not the artist's.
  • Neox
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    Neox veteran polycounter
    Farfarer wrote: »
    No, if you're a studio and you hire someone to make artwork for you to sell on to a client, you pay them for it.

    If it's not good enough or you don't like them, cut the contract short and pay them for what they've done so far.

    If you don't think they can produce the work to standard, you don't hire them.
    Especially if you're an outsource house that deals with many freelancers all day long, you should be able to distinguish artists working to your required standards from artists who are not.

    If you can't, it's on your head, not the artist's.

    exactly, and if you spend the money reserved for the freelancer you pay them from your ownnmoney, and if the client doesn't pay, you communicate that and make it work.
    you just pay your workers, and if it brings you to bankruptcy. it's not their fault, they delivered, so it is up to you, who hired them, not your client.
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