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AutoExit polycounter lvl 9
Hi, this is my first post on Polycount. What i am doing now is 3D representation of a concept art i found on internet.

smwpwz.jpg
dfeiqs.jpg
1567912.jpg
ouzlli.jpg
v9l4l.jpg

My questions are:
1.- Do have importance a topology flow in environment modelling for videogames?
2.- Do have importance how i am doing junctions?
3.- In project like that i should use tris or quads?
4.- Do you know any tricks and tips to get faster workflow? I was doing first boxes and then i was using retopology to make more detailed forms.
5.- Could you show similar examples/works/projects of what i am doing now, focusing on topology?

There are 2 versions of the same door: main doors and destroyed main doors. I do first the main doors with his topology and texture and then with that base i make a destroyed version. Thats why main doors is an element that is going to have finished mesh after making textures, not before.

This is how i organize my work:
mav6ec.jpg

Any advice would be welcome.

Replies

  • Jeff Parrott
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    Jeff Parrott polycounter lvl 19
    1-5 No. Don't care about topology. Just care how it reads in the game engine. if having super polygons with 5 sides makes weird shading issues get rid of them. If it doesn't who cares? The layout of the geo looks good so far. Again I would say how does it read in game? Some game engines this stuff can matter, others it doesn't. So you might get varying opinions. But looking at this it looks good so far.

    As far as workflow it looks good. Typically I would model base shapes, UV map, then do damage. Now if you're doing some MEGATEXTURES!!!! style work where every texture is unique or you're relying on vertex blended materials, then what you're doing probably is good. Most of the time with me I get in a loop of model>UV>texture and repeat until it's polished and matches the concept or quality that I'm going for.

    Looking at this piece it seems like something I would see from an Environment Modeler. Good stuff!
  • Texelion
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    Texelion polycounter lvl 8
    Not an expert, but using tris or quads is just a question of tesselation, right ? There's no need to use quads if you don't plan on using tesselation, and most exporters will re-triangulate your mesh anyway I think.

    Now I don't now your level in environment making, but this piece seems a bit too big to start with. You seem to modelize everything in a specific way, but maybe you should think about it : your blockout is already too detailed, you're going to re-use some assets instead of doing everything specific, and the textures too ( unless you're using a megatexture as Jeff said ). Try to break out your meshes depending on the textures.

    Also you can put your blockout into an engine and start doing a base lighting to set the mood and see if the volumes are nice or not.

    Last thing, you should have a shitload of other references, not only the base concept you're reproducing.
  • Tobbo
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    Tobbo polycounter lvl 11
    Since there is so much wear and tear on the textures in the concept I would definitely consider using vertex painting to get the most out of your textures and still keep the wear and tear on the textures looking not too repetitive.

    Again, just work from big to small. Don't get sucked into the details too early. Always keep the big picture in mind.

    This looks like a good start. :)
  • sltrOlsson
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    sltrOlsson polycounter lvl 14
    You have some really good layering going with your model all ready. Nice parallax and good silhouettes.

    What I do when I do environments like this I plan what should use a tiling texture, what should be decal (like damaged plaster) and what should be completely unique (something like your damaged beams).

    Like I said, the first step for me is planning, the next is block out. A block out should be under 3-4 hours for something like this. Try not to spend to much time on your block out but make sure you get all your big reads in there. Like you got now. I'd say your mesh is to detailed for a block out, and I'm sure you didn't create it as one, but you should use it as one. Starting with your final mesh right away with out a block out can create some really (unnecessary) big challenges for you in the future.

    Everything I said is from my own experience and is how I like to do things. Please tell us how you decide to proceed so that we won't whine about shit you've already decided to approach in a different way :)

    Something I forgot, go nuts with the triangles! Tessellation or no tessellation..

    I think you're in a very good place with the project now. I can tell that you have great skill just looking at your modeling so far. I'm curious to how this will evolve, definitely follow your thread.

    Bigger back drop then you, and less advanced geometry wise. http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=94949&page=3

    Here you have good reference and tech reference for your damaged roof, good example of vertex blend shader on the walls of the house. Great amount of details. http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91066&page=8

    Just a great level of detail and great execution. http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125602&page=4

    Good reference for some more simple destruction. Great use of blend shaders. http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103356&page=6

    Very detailed but great destruction. http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=117624

    Just a sexy ass environment. http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75196

    I'd say Tomb Raider is pretty darn good reference for this as well.. There's at least one art dump on the forum here.. If you own it, look for the broken wood houses and the bigger monastery where you're supposed to bring down a bell to get out :)
  • Rockley Bonner
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    Rockley Bonner polycounter lvl 12
    This could look realy nice, Ive thought about approaching this concept myself. Have you taken into consideration modularity? How are you going to approach textures?
  • sltrOlsson
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    sltrOlsson polycounter lvl 14
    Yeah dude! What are you planning! Give us some sugar!
  • AutoExit
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    AutoExit polycounter lvl 9
    The layout of the geo looks good so far. Again I would say how does it read in game?

    I checked it in Unity engine and it looks good, there were things that i had to fix.
    Last thing, you should have a shitload of other references, not only the base concept you're reproducing.

    That's right, what i did was make more concept art by myself. I have made main door and roof. w7mwwz.jpg I was basing on pictures of doors of similar style.
    Like I said, the first step for me is planning, the next is block out. A block out should be under 3-4 hours for something like this. Try not to spend to much time on your block out but make sure you get all your big reads in there. Like you got now. I'd say your mesh is to detailed for a block out, and I'm sure you didn't create it as one, but you should use it as one.

    I am not familiar with vocabulary, when you say blockout you refer to a grey block from left or a mesh from a right (that should have less details in the actual part of precess)?
    ztywk2.jpg
    Starting with your final mesh right away with out a block out can create some really (unnecessary) big challenges for you in the future.
    Bigger back drop then you, and less advanced geometry wise. http://www.polycount.com/forum/showt...t=94949&page=3

    Here you have good reference and tech reference for your damaged roof, good example of vertex blend shader on the walls of the house. Great amount of details. http://www.polycount.com/forum/showt...t=91066&page=8

    Just a great level of detail and great execution. http://www.polycount.com/forum/showt...=125602&page=4

    Good reference for some more simple destruction. Great use of blend shaders. http://www.polycount.com/forum/showt...=103356&page=6

    Very detailed but great destruction. http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=117624

    Just a sexy ass environment. http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75196

    Beautiful stuff, i have taken a deep breath when i have seen train station:poly101:. I have found some stuff form Tomb Raider http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119045&page=2 Focusing on wireframe images, those meshes are a lot more detailed than my ones, whats the difference between mine too detailed meshes and those from Tomb Raider?

    sltrOlsson i have checked out your portfolio, there are stuff like Worn Interior, Boulangerie and Tavern that i can learn from, also the tutorials are something that i must realize. Thank you :)
    Have you taken into consideration modularity?
    No, i think that this project is too small to use modularity and i even cant thing about how to use it here.
    What are you planning! Give us some sugar!

    :) What i plan is: do tiling textures and use vertex painting to avoid looking too repetitive, as Tobbo said. I have read that for videogames its better to put all textures in one image file. What i want to do is distribute textures on one 4096x4096. Is it right to do it that way or should i just do every texture as separated image/file? Maybe do megatextures is a better alternative? What do you think about it?

    Thanks a lot for replys and help :D
  • Steppenwolf
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    Steppenwolf polycounter lvl 15
    My 2 cents regarding topology is that i try to avoid long thin triangles even if it means higher polycount. Those triangles are a regular source for ugly lighting/shadow artifacts and it's not like in the old days where every single optimized tri was hugely important.
  • sltrOlsson
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    sltrOlsson polycounter lvl 14
    Sorry for trowing weird English words at you :poly142: And yes, you are right! That first one to the left is a excellent block out.

    We all have our own way of approaching a building like this. I would maybe (after I've done a good block out) start to do the walls first, move on to the windows, doors, figure out how the damage should be built and so on..

    To much detail in you mesh can obstruct you from doing things the easiest/best way.

    I'm confident you'll figure all of this out as you go though.. Great to see that you filled in the gaps your self with your own concept stuff!

    I'm glad if anyone is inspired, but that stuff is old :poly122: I think you can use that decal technique i'm talking about in the small tutorial though.. It's great for creating localized damage for the corners and stuff like that!

    [Edit] Oh! Something I forgot to add! Don't do a atlas texture, all of the textures on one big texture. It's just an insane pain and studios that uses it usually have an automated process or it's done for very specific assets..

    You can't, to my knowledge, use vertex paint in an efficient way with a atlas either..
  • Vonklaus
    Hey Auto, what program/website do you use to organize your workflow? I have a project that I should probably breakdown in this manner and would love to know what you used!
  • AutoExit
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    AutoExit polycounter lvl 9
    Hey Auto, what program/website do you use to organize your workflow? I have a project that I should probably breakdown in this manner and would love to know what you used!

    I use Xmind. its freeware program that you can download from here http://www.xmind.net/download/win/
  • AutoExit
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    AutoExit polycounter lvl 9
    Basically i did all modelling, except main door and planes that will be used with alpha textures. Now i am going to UV Map and create textures. I was believing that making an atlas texture will be better than a separated ones but you are right, vertex painting would be a problem, thanks for saving my time :)
    29gfzb8.jpg
    fk9r4m.jpg


    I'm glad if anyone is inspired, but that stuff is old I think you can use that decal technique i'm talking about in the small tutorial though.. It's great for creating localized damage for the corners and stuff like that!

    Wow, i already can think about possibilities of this, thanks. I will use it while doing other alphas.
  • AutoExit
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    AutoExit polycounter lvl 9
    I am doing textures and vertex painting now at the building.
    Is it OK to create more polys on the mesh to do a vertex paint? The selected ones on the screen are ones that i created to do a vertex painting.

    23sucli.jpg

    Also i use 3 different images of the same texture but tinted in 2D program to different colors. In this context is it better to do different image files as i do or tint one image in a 3D program? (Except the brown one which has white stains)

    fzb2no.jpg
  • Obscura
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    Obscura grand marshal polycounter
    "Is it OK to create more polys on the mesh to do a vertex paint?"
    Totally, because you can't do it nicely without adding more verticles.
    "In this context is it better to do different image files as i do or tint one image in a 3D program?"
    Personally I would obviously use one texture and do a simple color multiply in the engine. But if the engine doesn't allow to do this kind of things, then I would use different textures, so it depends. But the less individual textures makes it more optimized.

    Your lowpoly mesh looks nice by the way!
  • sltrOlsson
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    sltrOlsson polycounter lvl 14
    For the tinting, what engine are you using? Both Unreal and Cryengine can tint..

    Is the vertex paint for blending of textures? Like this? http://docs.cryengine.com/display/SDKDOC2/Blend+Layer If it is you should do it with your textures al setup, in max or in the engine you're using. It's hard to apply it before you see how it will work in enigne..

    Any textures to show of?
  • Zieg_Reborn
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    Zieg_Reborn triangle
    Your geo and thought process is good so far, awesome that you are looking for help and listening. However I think you really need to start getting your stuff into an engine to see the results. It's really only worthwhile previewing and testing things in Maya/Max if you already have a deep understanding on how it's going to translate into the engine and how your shaders are going to handle it.
  • ScottHoneycutt
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    ScottHoneycutt polycounter lvl 13
    Yeah this is good so far. What all (if anything) are you going to do a highpoly model and normal map?
  • AutoExit
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    AutoExit polycounter lvl 9
    Is the vertex paint for blending of textures? Like this? http://docs.cryengine.com/display/SDKDOC2/Blend+Layer If it is you should do it with your textures al setup, in max or in the engine you're using. It's hard to apply it before you see how it will work in enigne..

    I have a lot of problems with exporting it to engine. I use Blender to model. I cant use Cryengine or Unreal because i have too weak graphic card. So i will use Unity. I have made a topic on Unity forum to find an anwer: http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/export-blenders-mesh-materials-textures-vertex-paint-problem.261031/
    What all (if anything) are you going to do a highpoly model and normal map?

    I am not going do any highpoly, I am going to use normal maps on all bigger textures. I think that most detailed part of environment will be tha main door, I want to make it with nice big detailed texture.

    280l5xu.jpg
    oidn2t.jpg
    wveou9.jpg
    p1x51.jpg
    mhrj82.jpg

    Is there any trick to unwrap a rope?
    When you work on environments for videogames do you unwrap all meshes?

    When i will be able to make textures work on engine i will post it, rigth now i can show only this:
    262qgl0.jpg

    Thanks a lot for all help and advices, it really helps me to learn and progress.
  • beefaroni
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    beefaroni sublime tool
    @sltrOlsson - Holy shit thank you for linking all of those sweet environments. That last one, from 2010. 0_0
  • AutoExit
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    AutoExit polycounter lvl 9
    Uptade

    This is how it look in game engine Unity.
    qnobpe.jpg
    2v1xhef.jpg

    There are still some details to make and fix. I haven't made decals yet. When finish I will focus on making good looking renders and presentation of this environment to put it on my portfolio. Is there any advice you could give me in this? I was looking at other environments and i think i can do it well. I thought about put on the environment a model of some ninja or samurai, i think it will be a icing on the cake.
  • Cay
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    Cay polycounter lvl 5
    beefaroni wrote: »
    @sltrOlsson - Holy shit thank you for linking all of those sweet environments. That last one, from 2010. 0_0

    yeah.. mind blown
  • ScottHoneycutt
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    ScottHoneycutt polycounter lvl 13
    The textures are mostly a bit lacking. they aren't especially well defined. They seem very low res. I'd recommend remaking the main stone crack texture and roof tiles. If this is a portfolio piece, make them high res enough to get good detail and get that good detail in there. If you aren't using normal maps then you will need to make up for that with very well painted maps.
  • NomadSoul2501
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    NomadSoul2501 polycounter lvl 10
    Wow, I remember seeing this a long time ago.
    Glad you're sticking with it, it's starting to shape up :)

    My advice would be to rework your texture and to put it into something other than unity.
    Don't get me wrong, unity is a very competent engine but you can have a full featured UDK for free or even better UE4 for $20.
    The more powerful lighting alone would help push the piece and you'd have more control over your materials.

    Keep it up.

    Cheers
  • AutoExit
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    AutoExit polycounter lvl 9
    I think that this is finish, is there anything more that i can fix?
    (Unity)
    n1waae.jpg
    2hi2v7d.jpg
    dhbupk.jpg
    20k68w4.jpg

    I have made texture for the roof, that is better quality than the earlier one.

    145r92.jpg
  • ScottHoneycutt
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    ScottHoneycutt polycounter lvl 13
    This roof is mega-way better. Good job. I still don't care for the main wall texture though. My eyes immediately go right to it as an issue. Its very flat and doesn't read as a broken concrete wall.
  • djoexe
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    djoexe polycounter lvl 7
    The material definition is very weak, hard to read as mentioned above.
  • AutoExit
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    AutoExit polycounter lvl 9
    Thanks for replies! This crack wall is challenging. I made normal map for it.

    ofqzb8.jpg
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