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Crunch Time in the Games Industry

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Joebewon polycounter lvl 12
Hey fellow Greenteeth,

I wanted to discuss Crunch Time when it came to working on games in the industry. I've been working at a small indie studio for about 4-5 months now and I just had my first major crunch. I work roughly 70+ hours throughout the past week.

So I was just wondering if Crunch is still a very valid thing throughout the industry? I know this changes from situation to situation and how different studio cultures are. But, are 70 hour work weeks almost expected when it comes to having a studio job?

Definitely interested to hear what you guys have to say, and feel free to share any tales from your Crunch experiences!

Replies

  • Bruno Afonseca
    It changes from studio to studio and also from team to team within studios. With me it was never forced upon people, always optional.
  • JacqueChoi
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    JacqueChoi polycounter
    I think what's becoming more prevalent, is the 'passive crunch' culture that Google pioneered.

    At these studios 'Crunch' isn't mandated, but a LOT of people take extra time to ensure their work is the absolute best it can be within tighter deadlines (only works at studios that grant a significant amount of autonomy).

    Which in turn creates a culture of people staying late, so the people who LEAVE early are often perceived as the weaker links on the team, or unable to keep pace with the people who regularly stay an extra few hours.
  • Grimmstrom
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    Grimmstrom polycounter lvl 7
    Crunch is very much studio dependant. Some demand it, while some are much more lenient. The most important thing is that you get your work completed and you do it to a high standard. This is something I always aim for.

    Learn to estimate your working speed correctly is vital, I've seen so many interns and juniors take on an impossible deadline because they are so eager to impress and they've ended up suffering for it. If you don't think that a timeframe is realistic, speak up about your concerns. 9 times out 10 the producers will come up with a solution.

    I've worked in the games industry for almost 10 years and haven't had any major crunch periods. Yes I do a few extra hours here and there before a milestone but it's nothing that is going to destroy me.
  • sltrOlsson
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    sltrOlsson polycounter lvl 14
    When we're doing crunch at Avalanche it's usually 3-4 days/week a 2h for a week or two. I'd say I've done about 48h of overtime this last year, so nothing basically.

    That being said, I'm generally doing 45-50h weeks on my own..
  • RyanB
    Grimmstrom wrote: »
    Crunch is very much studio dependant. Some demand it, while some are much more lenient. The most important thing is that you get your work completed and you do it to a high standard. This is something I always aim for.

    Google is a "lifestyle provider"

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-07-22/thirteen-months-of-working-eating-and-sleeping-at-the-googleplex

    -1x-1.gif
  • beefaroni
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    beefaroni sublime tool
    Joebewon wrote: »
    But, are 70 hour work weeks almost expected when it comes to having a studio job?!

    I hope not. More time in the studio = less time improving as an artist on personal work :thumbdown: (this depends on the studio/project of course).

    From my experience so far, crunch has been caused almost entirely by mis-management/lack of planning.

    I should add at the that I've only worked 2 weeks of crunch out of over 4 months here. Not unreasonable at all and I have a great work / personal balance. Pretty good overall :thumbup:
  • MooseCommander
    beefaroni wrote: »
    From my experience so far, crunch has been caused almost entirely by mis-management/lack of planning.

    Exactly this.

    Crunch isn't necessary. Crunch is a failure of the studio to plan properly and accordingly.

    If you work at a studio where crunch is planned ahead of time, be very afraid. This, by far, is the worst thing a studio can do.

    Accidents happen, sometimes things slip and you have to work hard to make up lost time and hit your deadlines. But producers and management should never say "We're gonna crunch in 2 months, we expect everyone to do 60+ hours a week." It's unfair and unsustainable, and makes your employees frustrated.
  • marks
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    marks greentooth
    Joebewon wrote: »
    I work roughly 70+ hours throughout the past week.

    If that is because you feel you have to, rather than because you personally want to, then cut that the fuck out - you're being exploited.
  • PixelMasher
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    PixelMasher veteran polycounter
    yea....fuck working 70 hour weeks. even a 60 hour week is insane to me. Even on a hectic deadline I wont put in more than a few hours of extra overtime unless I have been personally slacking or lazy.
    If a project is scheduled in a way where a studio thinks they can take advantage of "free work" for a 10 dollar dinner that's horrible for you.....I just don't subscribe to that line of thinking. The worst is when producers come around asking who is staying late with their little clipboard trying to run the guilt train to get people to put in free work.

    If your co-workers look down on you for "only" putting in your 8 hours a day then that's not being an elite and passionate artists, that's called being an asshole/having no life.

    I think because this industry is always putting the passion for games at the forefront of every studio culture and PR interview people are able to easily be taken advantage of. I know I was like that in the first few years of my career. Then came a crunch where I was working 60-80 hours a week overtime for several weeks, and at the end, not a single compensation day was given. not a single free day off. That was the day I stopped working for free and have never looked back. No one has ever called me out on it, especially at larger companies.

    To be honest, I work to save money to travel and enjoy life. Living to work and stare at a screen for 12+ hours a day isn't what I would consider living. I love what I do and am super happy making games, but at the end of the day I expect to be paid for what I do, and a $10 dinner for 2-3 hours or more of extra time isnt worth it.
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    Regular crunch doesn't make a whole lot of sense. At least in my experience (and this is working from home, so it is probably more drastic when you throw a commute into things), when I do a 70 hour week I end up only accomplishing something like 60 hours of normal work. Then after crunch is over your productivity lags until you get back into a rested and focused state of mind. The extra time spent for what actually gets accomplished isn't worth it unless you have a real hard deadline in the short term, not a poorly designed scheduling deadline.
  • Rev
    If you're constantly in crunch mode and look at what you're being paid versus hours worked you will very quickly come to the conclusion that you're making a pretty sad hourly wage. One that would probably be matched by a variety of other jobs.

    There are exceptional circumstances that can require extra hours but it generally seems to be the exploitation of people who are passionate about their work. You tend to see a lot of this in creative fields.
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    Where i work, they're actively against crunch.

    My boss (and Earthquake too) have told me to go the fuck to bed before lol. It is absolutely recognised that past a certain point, working more hours per week actually makes you less productive.
  • slosh
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    slosh hero character
    70 hour crunch week is fucking crazy. Even when I have crunched, it was no where near that amount. GTFO if you can...
  • peanut™
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    peanut™ polycounter lvl 18
    I don't mind staying in later, (doing and extra hour or two). Everything comes down to the weekend, i don't work for anyone on saturday and sunday anymore, i used to but now even if they ask me to do this or that on a weekend i politely turn the offer down and say "NO".

    My family as suffered enough of me working every weekend.
  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm interpolator
    Where i work, they're actively against crunch.

    My boss (and Earthquake too) have told me to go the fuck to bed before lol. It is absolutely recognised that past a certain point, working more hours per week actually makes you less productive.

    this.

    And if you're a coder, it's even worse. Not just your raw productivity sinks, but you also become more likely to make mistakes which create more problems down the road if they're not immediately found.
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    peanut™ wrote: »
    I don't mind staying in later, (doing and extra hour or two). Everything comes down to the weekend, i don't work for anyone on saturday and sunday anymore, i used to but now even if they ask me to do this or that on a weekend i politely turn the offer down and say "NO".

    My family as suffered enough of me working every weekend.

    this is wise. having a solid two days of r+r is amazing for your mental health, your physical health, your social life, and your productivity.
  • peanut™
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    peanut™ polycounter lvl 18
    this is wise. having a solid two days of r+r is amazing for your mental health, your physical health, your social life, and your productivity.

    I hear you Almighty_gir, all it takes is the guts to stay firm even if its mean to look your boss in the eyes to show how serious you are. Be strong guys.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    Crunch is the reason why everyone who says "I'll do this until I'm old and grey" usually don't.... there's one guy with grey hair at the Austin game dev meetups.
  • Rev
    Crunch is the reason why everyone who says "I'll do this until I'm old and grey" usually don't.... there's one guy with grey hair at the Austin game dev meetups.

    You really think that it's crunch? Or maybe the fact that the skillset of a good artist or programmer often commands more in other industries?
  • Lamont
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    Lamont polycounter lvl 15
    When I first started 16 years ago, my mindset towards crunch was naive. I thought it was supposed to happen in order to pump out a great product. It was glamorous I thought. "I can do this forever!!" or so I thought.

    No.

    I stopped crunching like that after I left that place, I did do a couple of overnighters at Sony. I had responsibilities to my health both mental, physical, emotional and my relationships with friends/family.

    Now I do a solid 40 hours a week. I do about 20-30 hours a year OT... maybe. Even when I THINK I need to work OT/Crunch, I present my tasks to my manager and he will say "Nah, we can deal with that tomorrow/next Monday, go home.". Which is very unlike Japan-based/Japanese game companies.
  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm interpolator
    Rev wrote: »
    You really think that it's crunch? Or maybe the fact that the skillset of a good artist or programmer often commands more in other industries?

    ...and as you grow older and more mature you start to realize at what amateur level many companies are managed.
  • RyanB
    this is wise. having a solid two days of r+r is amazing for your mental health, your physical health, your social life, and your productivity.

    Henry Ford proved that working 8 hours a day, five days a week is the most productive schedule. It's a solved problem even though many people would like to pretend it isn't.

    Also, if you have a family you can forget about putting in 70+ hour weeks. Unless you want your kids to hate you and your wife to say adios. Divorce is a lot more expensive than finding a new job.

    Now that I have a kid, I notice that a lot of movie and songs are written about absentee fathers. Cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon, little boy...etc.

    Just for shniggles, here's my crunch history:

    2 1/2 years, company A - 60+ hours a week standard. I worked 80ish hours a week for one five month stretch on a demo for a new IP. Only took three days off for that 5 month stretch.

    4 years, company B - Each year, 40 hours a week in Nov & Dec, 50 hours a week in Jan, 60+ hours a week in Feb-Apr, 70+ hours a week in May - Sept, Oct around 50+ a week.
    On one project I stayed up for 36 hours straight, three times.
    The last project I worked 100+ hours a week for a month, only slept about four hours a night.
    Two years after I left the studio was shut down. CEO admitted in public that crunch had destroyed the studio. He called it "deathmarch".

    2 1/2 years, company C - Mostly a 40 hour work week. The last two months there I was working 60ish hours a week. Told them I couldn't come in one weekend (I really couldn't) and they looked at me like I had just stangled a puppy.

    5 1/2 years as an electrician - Mostly 40 hours a week but hours are random. Usually 7 am - 3 pm, but did 3 months starting at 5 am and six months working 3 pm - 11 pm. The last project was 8 months of 10 hour shifts of intense physical labour plus 2 1/2 hours of driving each day. At home, I would often fall asleep on the floor or in my computer chair.

    Current - Back working on games. Almost zero crunch.
  • marks
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    marks greentooth
    Kwramm wrote: »
    ...and as you grow older and more mature you start to realize at what amateur level many companies are managed.
    I can completely endorse this from many things I've heard on the grapevine.
  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm interpolator
    just remember, nobody on their deathbed says "I wish I had worked more" ;)
  • WarrenM
    I don't like that saying. People are hardly in their right minds as they're about to die... It's a completely different perspective than you have when you're healthy and looking at potentially decades of more life ahead.
  • WarrenM
    But, on another note, fuck crunch. Seriously.
  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm interpolator
    WarrenM wrote: »
    I don't like that saying. People are hardly in their right minds as they're about to die... It's a completely different perspective than you have when you're healthy and looking at potentially decades of more life ahead.

    well, the underlying message is that those people probably reflect on what mattered in their life - or what should have. And it's usually friends and family and not putting in crazy work hours for the man.

    And that's exactly the perspective young people miss. Many do crunch just to realize later it's been a waste of time. Will you be lucky enough to have worked on a game that stands the test of time? Maybe if you crunched for Civilization you can be proud. But what about all the other "great" titles long gone and forgotten?
    Even if you're not dying, would you look back and think "it was worth it"?
  • slipsius
    You don't even need to be on your death bed to realize it's not worth it. You just need to crunch a lot and get a shitty review on your game. You`ll learn pretty damn quick it's not worth it. Especially if you put less hours in on a game that did better.
  • haiddasalami
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    haiddasalami polycounter lvl 14
    Been a while (think 2 years ago?) since I crunched. May stay an hour late here or there but thats because I tend to not notice the time or just tinkering around with something on my own time.
  • Fogbrain
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    Fogbrain polycounter lvl 5
    Crunch may be something that is unavoidable in life here and there, and I can understand that. But there's something managerially, morally and physically wrong with exploiting artists of their time & personal lives to pick up the slack on poor upper management skills. This isn't trickle down workanomics, the bottom shouldn't have to scramble for the top players.
  • TaoLiu
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    TaoLiu vertex
    Surely it varies by department right? Crunch for concept artists? 3d artists? Tech artists (seems like crunch galore here)? 
  • RyanB
    TaoLiu said:
    Surely it varies by department right? Crunch for concept artists? 3d artists? Tech artists (seems like crunch galore here)? 
    I'm a tech/vfx artist and in the year and two months since my last post on this subject I've done zero crunch.

    It varies by company.  You have to find or start a small company where the majority, including investors and owners, realizes there is no long-term value in crunch.
  • Mathew O
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    Mathew O polycounter
    I've not crunched too much since being at Massive which makes me happy, sometimes you can obviously get pressured by people and you just have to stick to your guns so I'm pretty happy that we managed to ship The Division without much crunch overall. 

    One thing I would LOVE to know though... Rockstar are famous for their crunch. Is that real or just a rumour? :D
  • Jonas Ronnegard
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    Jonas Ronnegard polycount sponsor
    Yeah not sure about everyone else but, I'm pratically useless when I get to a certain point of sleepiness, in my younger days I was like most people, wanting to impress and stayed late etc, but my work was basically standing still.

    when you are tired you finish stuff in 10 hours that you would have been able to finish in 1 if you were not tired, even when you think you don't have time to sleep I promise you it's worth it to take a couple of hours of sleep instead of working with a tired brain that makes mistakes and fall a sleep every 5 minutes and  forget what you are doing.
  • Ged
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    Ged interpolator
    70 hour weeks is rediculous, its not productive or reasonable. I think in europe we have working time directives which as far as I remember say we should work a maximum of 48 hour weeks over a 17 week period https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-working-hours/overview This doesn't stop crunch but it means that employers shouldn't be able to force employees to work a lot of crunch hours for a long period of time. Unless of course the company asks employees to opt out of working time directives by getting them to sign a legal document but I personally wouldnt do that.

    I understand a little bit of crunch(like a few hours extra a week) is necessary some times. As long as the company I am working for can guarantee that my extra work hours are necessary to hit the targets - well then Im ok with doing it. If theres no goal in sight or obvious target to hit and Im asked to do overtime, well then Im annoyed!
  • low odor
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    low odor polycounter lvl 17
    Crunch: trying to circumvent   poor planning/management at the cost of  your employees health, passion, time,  and money.

    I've never worked at a studio where any part of upper management stayed  for crunch- and these fucks get the bonus, the credit...and you get laid off as soon as they don't need you.

    It's on par with freelancers working for shit money, it brings down the rest of the ecosystem.

    One of the first question you should ask a studio you are interviewing for is "what is your crunch policy?" and if it is anything less than "We are adamantly opposed to  crunch" or "We compensate you with overtime pay" move on.


  • Swizzle
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    Swizzle polycounter lvl 15
    Overtime because I fucked up or I got sick and didn't finish the work I was supposed to do? Fine, peachy, 100% on-board. I've done it before, I'll do it again.

    Overtime because someone else fucked up the schedule? Haha eat a dick.
  • Snefer
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    Snefer polycounter lvl 16
    Unpaid crunch because someone else fucked up, that you will not get compensated for in any way? (career advancement included) Then fuck no! :)
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