Likeness - Looking but no seeing
polycounter lvl 3
Hi,
Would you happen to know how to do likeness well?
I've been fighting this project, trying to achieve likeness and it just doesn't feel right. Something is missing, but I don't see it. And to be honest I reached a point where the more I mess with it the less fitting it gets.
Can you help me out? Any tips? Pointers? Something you noticed I missed?
Any feedback will be appreciated.
Thank you!
The current state:
( http://oi58.tinypic.com/de301u.jpg )
* The hair planes are just "place holders", I'll probably changed them to match her default hair style more.
Reference:
Would you happen to know how to do likeness well?
I've been fighting this project, trying to achieve likeness and it just doesn't feel right. Something is missing, but I don't see it. And to be honest I reached a point where the more I mess with it the less fitting it gets.
Can you help me out? Any tips? Pointers? Something you noticed I missed?
Any feedback will be appreciated.
Thank you!
The current state:
( http://oi58.tinypic.com/de301u.jpg )* The hair planes are just "place holders", I'll probably changed them to match her default hair style more.
Reference:
Replies
The overall shape of her face seems to match, though I'd change that material to something more visible.
Thank you for the reply. I'll be starting to try and implement your observations.
Just one thing, what did you mean by "nostrils are defined too much into the tip"? No enough difference between the two parts and their intersection or is it something about their shape?
I don't know how you compare your sculpt with the model, but there is something I do : take some screens of your sculpt ( check if the fov isn't too high or it will be deformed ), draw the outlines and overlay them with the photo. Like this you'll be able to check the proportions in perspective and the shapes.
Then, it's sometimes hard to see the likeness on a white or gray sculpt, compared to a textured and colored photo. Unless your model has really specific shapes and details in the sculpt ( and this works better with men and old people, young women generally have clean skin and makeup ), it will be hard to see the likeness without some painting. So I suggest painting your sculpt a bit, or even project a photo if you can.
Anyway about the sculpt itself I'd say that your character looks older than the model. I thought she was at least 50, Gemma is only 29 this year. It may be because the lighting shows too much volumes ( under the eyes, around the mouth ), or the shader. Or because you exagerated those traits too much.
- Teach yourself photography, to understand how different lenses can strongly affect the look of a person's face. Can you tell what kind of lens was used in the reference photos you are using ? If not, chances are you will not be able to recreate the face since you will be missing an important piece of data.
- Get your model out of Zbrush as often as possible, since the program cannot handle real 3d representation of models.
- Try to work in an non-linear way, working on the texture at the same time as the sculpt. It will allow you to spot issues faster.
Thank you for the feedback.
Yes it is Gemma, and yes I did collect reference outside the movie. Thing is she looks way different, like a different person entirely. No idea why... (sometimes in the movie itself she looks quite different) maybe it's the lens that Pior mentioned.
Old huh? Didn't occur to me. Thou I usually do sculpt "too hard" because normal maps doesn't translate detail as sharply as I like them to (Maybe I'm baking them wrong), anyway I'll keep it in mind.
Thank you for the feedback!
The photography angle is something that never crossed my mind, interesting - thank you.
Outside of ZBrush is quite broad. What kind of program should I move it to? is Blender/Maya ok? Or am I looking for a renderer like Keyshot/Toolbag/UE4 - whatever I'm going to use for final presentation?
The non-linear tip is a bit ambiguous for me, it certainly interesting - I'll try to find ways to implement it.
http://oneslidephotography.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Best-Lens-for-Portrait-.jpeg
And another example, showing how lenses vary throughout a movie :
https://vimeo.com/95194792
Regarding Zbrush : The Zbrush viewport is not 3d at all, so unless you are working from orthogrphics (= telephoto), nothing is going to look like real life. Now thankfully enough, portrait photography is usually made with long lenses so you should be able to find good reference of that kind. But as soon as your are working in perspective view in Zbrush, all bets are off, and you will need to export your model to more standard 3d programs to really get a feel of what you are working with. It doesn't matter if it is keyshot or Maya, as long as you have access to proper camera control. This is precisely why I believe that starting a model from scratch in Zbrush is a waste of time, as it requires way too many adjustments later down the line because of the inherent limitations of the programs when it comes to faithfully displaying models in perspective.
As for working non-linearly : I just mean that you if you don't play with textures early on (that is to say : simulating eyelashes, skin tones, makeup, the colors of lips, and so on) you will not have any solid grounds for comparaison with your references. It can be as simple as projecting one of your reference pictures straight onto your model using Spotlight.
Wow first image is scary!
Is ZBrush that bad? I did several characters and props with ZBrush already and I didn't notice any huge deviations between what I sculpted to what it turned out to be in the final presentation (except in Normal map sharpness) - Sculpted them all mainly with perspective view too.
Thanks for the clarifications!
The way someone looks is our's brain interpretation, and that interpratation can be changed by stimulating part of a brain.(someone will look completely different for us, then earlier). Recognizing faces and emotions was key to survival long ago. Even if your model is anatomically correct it may not look like the person you sculpt. To create good likeness you need to learn how brain will interpret changes on your model (practise,practise and practise).
First of all create heads with only big shapes (no eyes, mouth or ears only a little bit of nose) likeness should be already visible(some shapes need to be exaggerated but if for brain it looks good its good) Google Philippe Faraut
Never sculpt directly from the images, after sculpting what you know about head,sculpt what you see. There is exception for closeups. I think photos with 80-100 mm lens are best for sculpting portraits.
When creating face, start from nose and this can be your landmark for eyes, mouth etc
Look at other sculpts made by Donatello, Giovanni Lorenzo Bernini etc. Watch and analyse
Sorry for any mistakes, hope that helps
edit: also create better material and watch your sculpt with different lightning setup. Read about lowkey lightning(its best to see al that big and small shapes)
make your reference photos grey and adjust levels so you can see different shapes better
50 is a better value, you shouldn't have a lot of difference with other soft. the fov can be changed in the DRAW menu.
Thanks for the feedback I'll check out the artists you've recommended. And graying out reference images sounds useful actually, I'll try it out.
Now that I think about it, ZBrush is defaulted at 45 for me... maybe that's why I didn't see that many problems with it.
If you're learning you're better off picking pictures made for portrait drawing studies. These will be light in a way to give you the cleareat form and no make ups
2.5D, right. I will keep that in mind! thanks.
I'm always learning.
And the target is to create a game-character out of the Gemma's character from the movie, and I'll have to use her images from the movie to do that.
but zbrush has no perspective, thats the whole issue. those values are also kinda pointless depending the dimensions of your model, what might work okay on the might end weird on a full body. very uneven propotions, say a long necked dino, being very long but not that high or wide, will cause a lot of distortion.
so better check your work in 3d, early and often
you need pictures of her, but not neccessarily from that movie.
Yeah, I get it and I got them.
Yet a problem remains - she looks quite different - and the target is her character and not "her-herself", so I'll need to imitate the make-up and "touch-ups" more than what she looks like in reality. Or am I thinking about this wrong?
to do the postwork you need the base, makeup and touchups are always added on top ofthe person, they usually do not change it