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Heroes that need LOD0 item poly budget improvements

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Anuxinamoon polycounter lvl 14
Hey guys,

Trying to get feedback on anyone who has been working with some of the older models that have not so fun item budgets for their slots. Or heroes that you think could have slot improvements. Hell even suggest new slot breakdowns for heroes that don't have them yet.

Pretty much the new heroes that get reworked/new breakdowns have very substantial item budgets, where the older models are lacking. With the new LOD0 views in game (bigger loadout, in game item/hero showcase camera view) I believe any slot that has under 200 tris should be boosted.

But there are also some heroes that have large footprint items with some tight budgets. If you have any, please suggest them!


For example Morphlings misc slot has more triangles than his shoulder or back slots.

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  • Vayne4800
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    Vayne4800 polycounter lvl 3
    Hey guys,

    Trying to get feedback on anyone who has been working with some of the older models that have not so fun item budgets for their slots. Or heroes that you think could have slot improvements. Hell even suggest new slot breakdowns for heroes that don't have them yet.

    Pretty much the new heroes that get reworked/new breakdowns have very substantial item budgets, where the older models are lacking. With the new LOD0 views in game (bigger loadout, in game item/hero showcase camera view) I believe any slot that has under 200 tris should be boosted.

    But there are also some heroes that have large footprint items with some tight budgets. If you have any, please suggest them!


    For example Morphlings misc slot has more triangles than his shoulder or back slots.

    I am curious. Why is it always you who initiates these kind of threads? Does Valve communicate with you directly?
  • Anuxinamoon
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    Anuxinamoon polycounter lvl 14
    Nope. I just know that valve likes community feedback. The more voices, the sooner stuff starts getting heard.
  • Toasty
    I'm only made a few sets so far, but I have noticed..

    PUDGE

    Arms
    • LoD0 Triangle Limit: 200
    • LoD1 Triangle Limit: 150
    Shoulders

    • LoD0 Triangle Limit: 800 (Valves 1135)
    • LoD1 Triangle Limit: 400
    Were both low considering their area coverage, and the Shoulder/arm was considerable lower then the default Valve model. The lod1 for the Shoulders slot was a total pain to make. A 50% reduction to 400 poly's for a whole arm meant a lot of silhouette had to be compromised. Would loved to see 1200 lod0, 800 lod1.



    -Toasty
  • Vayne4800
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    Vayne4800 polycounter lvl 3
    Nope. I just know that valve likes community feedback. The more voices, the sooner stuff starts getting heard.

    Well, I know that they actually react to direct communication. A good example was batrider's bat. One of the lods was too tight and an artist I know contacted them directly about it. Later in a patch, the lod limit was increased.

    Did you try to contact them in such fashion?
  • agito666
    i only know Nyx misc slot the dagon definitely is not 200 tris.
  • MugenMcFugen
    Not sure about LOD0 yet, but I'd be glad if they could fix Slardars base model :V that basic pose you import in him is not best for working on, especially bracers.
  • Reza
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    Reza polycounter lvl 3
    Nice move Anuxi, I've wanted to mention this for some while, it's good that you brought it up.
    If it's ok, I'll bring up whatever I can think of not only LoD0.

    1. Tiny:
    Weapon
    LoD0 Triangle Limit: 1200
    LoD1 Triangle Limit: 800
    Texture Size: 256H x 256W

    Tiny is huge, his weapon is huge too. his weapon is 4 times bigger than a hero like dark seer, 256 by 256 doesn't do justice imo.(the weird point is that the weapons that are in game are all 500 by 500 (haven't checked this new lava one though))

    2. Templar Assassin

    This hero just has a very bad slot management. The hair is on head slot and mask on shoulder! They should rework this hero. it's really limiting the creativity.

    3. Death Prophet

    Misc (dress scraps)
    LoD0 Triangle Limit: 150
    LoD1 Triangle Limit: 150
    Texture Size: 64H x 256W

    Ghost (Ultimate)
    LoD0 Triangle Limit: 600
    LoD1 Triangle Limit: 450
    Texture Size: 256H x 256W


    I know when u press 'R' a bunch of ghosts come and run around, but still it's really limiting.

    4. Brood Mother

    Head
    LoD0 Triangle Limit: 250
    LoD1 Triangle Limit: 150
    Texture Size: 128H x 256W


    Also there is an issue with bones of her back slot. I think it happened due to the remodel and that perhaps one of the bone structures in workshop files, workshop importer or in-game model is different from the other 2.

    5. Doom

    Tail
    LoD0 Triangle Limit: 150
    LoD1 Triangle Limit: 150
    Texture Size: 128H x 256W

    6. Faceless Void

    Body - Head
    LoD0 Triangle Limit: 700
    LoD1 Triangle Limit: 400
    Texture Size: 256H x 256W

    I hope they will fix this with the remodel.

    7. Huskar

    Huskar needs more love in general. All the slots have meh amount of triangles and the last huskar set that got in was before half of us were born.

    8. Juggernaut

    Weapon
    LoD0 Triangle Limit: 400
    LoD1 Triangle Limit: 300
    Texture Size: 128H x 256W


    9. Invoker

    half of the slots have the same LoD0 and LoD1.


    10. Witch Doctor

    Head
    LoD0 Triangle Limit: 500
    LoD1 Triangle Limit: 250
    Texture Size: 128H x 256W


    very little for both and resulting with either limited results or low quality result. there is almost no way to make a good looking asymmetric mask for him which I think fits his character very well. I'd make it 1000-600-256*256
    Also Shoulders, Back and Belt can receive improvements for LoD1.

    11. Warlock

    LoD1s are very disturbing. every thing is maximum 300(except ulit and off hand) while he actually has a large model.

    12. Slark

    True he is very small but I think he can have better budgets.

    13. Morphling

    Very little triangles in general.

    14. Tidehunter

    Texture spaces can be improved. 128*256 just hurts.

    15. Windranger

    Back
    LoD0 Triangle Limit: 350
    LoD1 Triangle Limit: 250

    Texture Size: 256H x 256W
    Weapon
    LoD0 Triangle Limit: 450
    LoD1 Triangle Limit: 350
    Texture Size: 128H x 256W
    Weapon Offhand
    LoD0 Triangle Limit: 350
    LoD1 Triangle Limit: 250
    Texture Size: 128H x 256W

    It seems to be enough for most of the cases but results in repetitive designs. nothing much out of the box or extra ordinary.

    16. Skywrath Mage

    This hero is big and has wings and is flying so it's closer to the camera. I think it deserves more triangles in general.
    Also the belt is very limited.

    Belt
    LoD0 Triangle Limit: 300
    LoD1 Triangle Limit: 200
    Texture Size: 128H x 256W


    17. Riki

    I know he is invisible but more triangles plz :)

    18. Pudge

    I'd double up everything, also the hook has the same LoD1 and LoD0.

    19. Shadow Shaman

    He is small and he is a humble shaman, right, but still his character matches with a lot of different ideas but these budgets make things hard and sometimes impossible.
    Also it would be nice if the skin effect of the serpent wards could be controlled with mask1. It's almost useless to texture the wards :)

    20. Lycan

    Lycan is the most badass hero of the game. the budgets are sufficient but there's a lot of potential for "aggressive" expansion.

    21. Magnus

    From my undrestanding, Misc stands for "miscellaneous" which means it is something that can go anywhere. So I don't think a horn could be a misc. I would change the name of this current misc to horn and either add an actual misc or not :)

    Some general points that I can think of for now:

    1.for some heroes like the ones that have cape or belt(like skywrath), a 2 sided material can be really helpful.
    2.some cosmetics for some heroes are barely visible in game, like almost all of CK or Abadon's or Dark seer's items. I don't know what the solution is or is it even a problem or not :D I just felt like mentioning it.

    It's a long post and there is probably a world of typos and grammatical failures, I apologize in advance :) :thumbup:
  • Sumers
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    Sumers polycounter lvl 10
    A bit out the theme, but i'd like to see opportunity to add solid item sets. Without breaking on different parts with one texture map and one poligonal budget. This will give a lot of space for creativity and solve all "budget problems". Especially this is actual after latest drop-system changes, since players now receive full sets, not single items. (not suggesting to change system entirely but to add options to chose "solid set" or "broken set")
  • Konras
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    Konras polycounter lvl 12
    Problem with many heroes is that requirments are strictly based on their default parts. So if default part was very simple we have a problem. There are also heroes that have super hi budgets because base part was complex.

    Bad example here is Terrorblade with 1000/600 limit for his armor that is basicly 3parts combined and has a limit smaller than Ench hair.

    Opisite would be to look at Lich neck with 1250/900 that is way to much.
  • Reza
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    Reza polycounter lvl 3
    Konras wrote: »
    Problem with many heroes is that requirments are strictly based on their default parts. So if default part was very simple we have a problem. There are also heroes that have super hi budgets because base part was complex.

    Bad example here is Terrorblade with 1000/600 limit for his armor that is basicly 3parts combined and has a limit smaller than Ench hair.

    Opisite would be to look at Lich neck with 1250/900 that is way to much.

    Exactly! Last night I was forcing myself to use more triangles for Venomancers shoulder :D it's got very strange numbers too :D

    LoD0 Triangle Limit: 1905
    LoD1 Triangle Limit: 1360
    Texture Size: 256H x 512W
  • Vayne4800
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    Vayne4800 polycounter lvl 3
    With a new engine coming soon and general user systems getting better, I could foresee an increase in limit numbers. So this thread could be timed very well.
  • kite212
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    kite212 polycounter lvl 15
    I really just want to see the rest of the heroes broken down, night stalker, and the rest of the reworks done, zeus slardar etc
    Vayne4800 wrote: »
    With a new engine coming soon and general user systems getting better, I could foresee an increase in limit numbers. So this thread could be timed very well.

    I hope that the new engine will raise most if not all the budgets across the board. If a lot of the budgets were up just 25-50 tris it could make a huge difference. And if most textures went up too, infinite detail time!
  • cottonwings
    Enchantress' Neck Slot
    • LoD0 Triangle Limit: 200
    • LoD1 Triangle Limit: 150
    For the love of sproink, give her some clothes to warm her shoulders up!
  • Spudnik
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    Spudnik polycounter lvl 11
    Windrunner's neck/back/shoulder/head setup still gives me nightmares, just restricts creativity so much.

    Either a) make the neck a different slot altogether or b) merge head and neck into one slot and have the back and shoulder separate. Her design revolves so much about her upper chest/neck/head area and having 3 'interlocking' slots means that sets are really restricted in how they work technically and artistically.
  • StuBurrito
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    StuBurrito polycounter lvl 7
    VS breakdown is quite bad.

    Legs
    LoD0 Triangle Limit: 800
    LoD1 Triangle Limit: 400
    Texture Size: 256H x 512W

    All of this for leggings and a skirt.

    Also there are is no slot for arms.
  • Malloy
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    Malloy polycounter lvl 6
    Brewmaster's Weapon slot ploz!
  • ReMixx
    I want to see Crystal Maiden, Windrunner, and Mirana have their boots broken apart from their base models. The ladies need new boots!!

    Elder Titan's belt is clearly a separate mesh but it is not broken apart from his base model. Please giff ET belt slot.

    I'd like to see Earthshaker's Totem be separated from the holding device on his back which in turn would increase the budget for both items. Weapon -> into separate weapon and back slots.

    Undying is broken down, why is he not in the Workshop!?
  • hopgood
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    hopgood polycounter lvl 12
    Tusk also has a belt broken from his base model but there is no available slot in the Workshop to add something.

    I would also say the jumps from LOD0 -> LOD1 for Witchdoctor are pretty harsh considering the asymmetry of his model.
  • Godzy
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    Godzy polycounter lvl 6
    I'm not sure if raising 1-2 budgets would actually help that much. Here are some of my suggestions:

    1. I think valve should just even out all of the budgets or at least have a starting point for them. For example having the mount/summons lod0 start from ~2000 Tris and 512x512 texture size. I mean I doubt that anything will even change for the average player considering that NP's summons already have 2400 tris for LoD0 and 512x512 texture size and the guy can spawn quite a few of those at a time. Would it actually hurt having the rest of the mounts/summons a lod0 starting from 2000 and a 512x512 texture.

    2. Another suggestion would be having at least 1 "BIG" item slot for each hero (some already do but some others are really lacking). Some examples would be:

    Venomancer Shoulders:
    LoD0 Triangle Limit: 1905
    LoD1 Triangle Limit: 1360
    Texture Size: 256H x 512W

    Spectre's Shoulders:
    LoD0 Triangle Limit: 2000
    LoD1 Triangle Limit: 1250
    Texture Size: 256H x 512W

    Naga Siren's Head:
    LoD0 Triangle Limit: 1200
    LoD1 Triangle Limit: 850
    Texture Size: 256H x 512W

    While there are heroes with the biggest poly count of 500 and textures of 256x256.

    3. And lastly I think it would be best if Valve could give us the freedom of "building our own item slots". By that i mean giving us the freedom of combining 2 item slots into something like the earthshaker weapon (totem + totem holder)
    Pros of this:
    - We could "borrow" budgets from another slot so instead of having 2 crappy 200 tris items you could build something decent out of 400
    - Concepts could be a lot more unique, since one can combine back+armor and the other armor+head and build his idea around that (Like the tentacle arm someone made for tide taking the bracer and offhand weapon slots)
    - The store might look less like a circus ( http://i.imgur.com/nM4iLPs.jpg )
    - Valve seems to direct their attention towards bundles rather than solo items so this would fit into the scenario pretty well
    Other mentions about this:
    - Limiting it to just 1 "fusion" per set would be a good idea for start
    - I doubt that they will even consider this since they'll need to rework the importer
  • ILM
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    ILM polycounter lvl 7
    3. And lastly I think it would be best if Valve could give us the freedom of "building our own item slots". By that i mean giving us the freedom of combining 2 item slots
    tumblr_m43fmnEFfl1rqfhi2o1_400.gif
  • Reza
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    Reza polycounter lvl 3
    Elder titan:

    Back
    LoD0 Triangle Limit: 1000
    LoD1 Triangle Limit: 400
    Texture Size: 256H x 256W
  • Konras
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    Konras polycounter lvl 12
    Iam sure merging parts would result in many problems. Right now there are many parts that dont work together.

    I would rather see limits put to same levels for certaon characters acordinh to their size and amount of parts.
  • GhostDetector
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    GhostDetector polycounter lvl 10
    @konras- Well programming it seems pretty easy, you just need to to tag the submission with what slots it fills. Like if you want to do a head/shoulder, you would check head/shoulder and it will take its place. Valve would need to do some significant changes to the submission coding/interface.

    I second that brewmaster weapon!
    LoD0 Triangle Limit: 450
    LoD1 Triangle Limit: 350
    Texture Size: 256H x 256W

    Sure that it seems nice, but the chains already take a bunch of tris.
  • reverendK
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    reverendK polycounter lvl 7
    Elder tirans head budgets are also significantly lower than his default head item. Those horns get expensive.

    I noticed recently that tides back slot is arbitrarily a 128X256 texture budget. Seems odd that the piece that presents the most real estate gets half the texture res as his head. (Theres nothing there by default)
  • Godzy
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    Godzy polycounter lvl 6
    Konras wrote: »
    Iam sure merging parts would result in many problems. Right now there are many parts that dont work together.

    I'm not sure you really understood what I meant. Could u possibly list some of those problems?
  • danpaz3d
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    danpaz3d polycounter lvl 7
    I wouldn't mind if they had a consistent number for each slot, for every hero. Example, every head item for all heroes is 650. Or something like that. Just finding a good 'average' spec for slots, rather than different per hero.

    That would make this whole issue easier to fix.
  • Frump
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    Frump polycounter lvl 12
    Meepo has too many slots in general. A few of them could be condensed. Specifically the hands and tail requirements are painful. 150 tris for two gloves and 150 tris for a tail. Hands are one of the most dense geo areas of a character and you have 75 tris to cover them. We're lucky Meepo sets aren't all wearing mittens.

    I think any hero with more than 4 slots (mounts and abilities excluded) has too many. It becomes a pain to submit so many slots and is overly specific, limits creativity. Mirana is an example of that. When I made a Mirana set I wanted to add more stuff to her torso as well as having shoulder pads so I had to make use of the quiver to put in a breastplate. I feel like doing crazy things like that makes my set less viable but I don't want to compromise for the arbitrary requirements.

    Queen of Pain's budgets are super heavily weighted toward the head and the hair. It leaves very little room to add anything interesting to her body unless you piggyback it on the 400tri shoulder slot. That should be opened up a bit more.

    TA was generally quite nice to work on only having 3 slots but the mask being separate from the head was a bad way to break it up, as has already been mentioned. It makes sense why they did it that way based on the base model but it doesn't work well when making new items for her.

    Earth Spirit's entire arms below the deltoid are part of the arms slot. It's weird that they want everyone to recreate his basic arms with each set. That's a breakup that should probably change.

    Those are a few that leap to mind for me. Heroes that have only 3-4 slots are the most enjoyable to work on for sure.
  • ike_ike
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    ike_ike polycounter lvl 12
    Frump wrote: »
    Meepo has too many slots in general. A few of them could be condensed. Specifically the hands and tail requirements are painful. 150 tris for two gloves and 150 tris for a tail. Hands are one of the most dense geo areas of a character and you have 75 tris to cover them. We're lucky Meepo sets aren't all wearing mittens.

    yeah i think his shoulder pads + backpack could be condensed into one slot as well. the way his straps work right now means you're kinda limited if you don't want to intersect with the default and custom sets.

    his default set is basically the only one that doesn't have some sort of vest / scarf thingamajig.
  • Konras
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    Konras polycounter lvl 12
    @Godzy
    What I mean its already hard to take all available parts into consideration and prepare item that will not intersect without items already in game. With more complications that could be almost impossible.

    On paper its fine. We merge forearms and shoulders slots and make some cool design for whole arms. However other sets could merge bracers with weapon or shoulders with back part. That would create to many conflicts between parts in my opinion.

    As for some examples please have a look at those parts:
    http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Deep_Warden%27s_Darkray_Cape
    http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Bound_Shark_Flippers
    People who made 2nd item didn't check that first set available for Slark had right shoulder integrated in back slot. Dazzle, Tide those heroes also have many conflicting items.

    If we should go in that direction I would rather see parts that would be marked as full set. Parts that would be present in game as single item but would cover all parts of given hero giving us total freedom :)
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    For the sake of productivity I think it might be best to focus the discussion on the original post related to items that have hard budgets to work with :)

    Still, a remark regarding odd hero breakdowns : it might sound strange, but I tend to think that this is one of the unique things that makes Dota set creation so fun ! For instance the Earth forearm slot came out of nowhere, but everybody making sets for him found ways to creatively work with the limitation. I feel like it is a big part of what makes the look of Dota2 heroes and custom sets so unique visually, especially compared to run-off-the-mill MMO customization slots.
  • Hudston
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    Hudston polycounter lvl 10
    Medusa's tail could use a bit more leeway. The LoD1 has the same budget as her helm despite making up 2/3rds of her model.
  • motenai
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    motenai polycounter lvl 18
    I agree on boosting in general every item that is under 200 or 300 in lod0, this will allow artist to be a bit more creative with their designs and not limited but the original design done by Valve.
    An example can be Dazzle polycount for the arm slot, that is based on only one sleeve in the original model. If an artist wanna do something on both arms is gonna have to work some magic.

    Also of all the heroes i've checked, i think Elder Titan is the one that needs a consistent boost more than others, even for the simple reason that he's pretty huge, so he could use some polygonal details more than other heroes.
  • Reza
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    Reza polycounter lvl 3
    Venomancer:

    Arms
    LoD0 Triangle Limit: 1075
    LoD1 Triangle Limit: 670
    Texture Size: 128H x 256W
  • Reza
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    Reza polycounter lvl 3
    Queen of Pain's dagger and wings have the same texture size. :(

    Love-and-Other-Drugs.gif
  • Darren Pinard
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    Darren Pinard polycounter lvl 3
    Ogre magi : all his slots are super low poly counts, most of this textures are 128x256 and hes a large character.

    Specifically:
    Head slot LoD1 Triangle Limit: 250
    He has 2 heads to cover!!!

    Not a surprise he has only 1 set out.
  • variant844
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    variant844 polycounter lvl 2
    For the love of God,give WR some armor and pants slots.
  • Markovnikov
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    Markovnikov polycounter lvl 6
    All I want is for Valve to give QoP a gorram leg slot. It is almost impossible to make anything when those great big armoured shins ruin everything!
  • Reza
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    Reza polycounter lvl 3
    OK puck is strangest one!
    The head is like one 10th of the wing but has double of texture size. OK we can say that head is seen in portrait and needs a good texture space but wing's texture space is just too low!(128*256) then the tail has again double of wing...

    jonah.jpg
  • Reza
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    Reza polycounter lvl 3
    I wonder if it's technically possible to have smth like lod0 but for texture. like a larger texture size for portrait. It will be nice to implement such a thing. The texture quality option already exists so I can't think of any reason why not to include this aside from the fact that it increases the size of the game.

    Also has there ever been an implemented update over existing items? I know valve has done it couple of times (mostly dude to positioning and animations) but I wonder if artist have ever been able to do that. It would be nice to know if valve likes the idea of allowing artists to increase the quality of their old itms.
  • kite212
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    kite212 polycounter lvl 15
    Reza wrote: »
    I wonder if it's technically possible to have smth like lod0 but for texture. like a larger texture size for portrait. It will be nice to implement such a thing. The texture quality option already exists so I can't think of any reason why not to include this aside from the fact that it increases the size of the game.

    All the textures are combined and loaded from a single sheet, that is why the texture limitations are what they are. to uprez one texture you must uprez them all
  • darkkyo
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    darkkyo polycounter lvl 6
    I just worked with Puck and it was a logistical nightmare working with some of those LOD tri counts(head is by far the worst). Felt like the LOD0 amount was just enough but that LOD1 was awful at a meager 300 triangles. Even 350 would have been a huge, huge improvement. Just because the vanilla headpiece is three little antennae doesn't mean everybody should be made to suffer :P
  • Spudnik
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    Spudnik polycounter lvl 11
    Additionally, the wings have less texture space at 128x256 while head and tail have 256x256 (Puck)
  • Toasty
    I think pucks textures are like they as they expect you to mirror the wings. So less texture space is required.
  • Reza
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    Reza polycounter lvl 3
    Still the wings are a lot bigger than the head piece. Also there are 3 wing pairs. Ofc it's not a must to always make 6 wings, but ...
  • Spudnik
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    Spudnik polycounter lvl 11
    Head and tail are likely mirrored as well, so the point is moot. Like Reza said, the wings occupy much more screen space than the head/tail and therefore would benefit most from a higher resolution.
  • darkkyo
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    darkkyo polycounter lvl 6
    Spudnik wrote: »
    Head and tail are likely mirrored as well, so the point is moot. Like Reza said, the wings occupy much more screen space than the head/tail and therefore would benefit most from a higher resolution.

    Texture size on the head is just fine. I just want it to have a bigger tri budget...
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