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ZBrush Hard-Surface Dynamesh

polycounter lvl 12
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cookedpeanut polycounter lvl 12
Hi peeps,

I want to adapt my workflow between poly modelling and ZBrush so that I may create final renditions of complex shapes quickly from a base mesh.

But here's the thing, after watching a video someone posted on here:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVHPSnBlIrU"]zSummit 2014: The Division | Montr

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  • jfitch
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    jfitch polycounter lvl 5
    Yeah getting good results out of dynamesh sub can be difficult...all I can say is save often, really. And for some reason it likes it better if your main mesh is dynamesh, and your sub mesh is polygonal and not dynamesh yet so that it converts it when you merge.
  • cookedpeanut
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    cookedpeanut polycounter lvl 12
    Thx I've been looking for a video like this for a while.
    It confirms my thoughts on that workflow. It's great.
    Yeah it's awesome... when it works. The problem is the results are incredibly tedious to keep tidy, projecting the mesh creates an extra level of 'nope'.

    In regards to the Dynamesh, I only made the main mesh Dynameshed and kept the subtractive tools as default from importing. Do I need to convert it to PolyMesh3D or do I need to collapse the sub div modifier on the parts I want to merge before appending or importing into the scene?
  • peanut™
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    peanut™ polycounter lvl 18
    For mechanic and hard surfaces in zb, support edges are the key to have a good Dynamesh flow.
  • WarrenM
    One thing these videos never show is what happens when the art director wants you to change something. That's where modeling apps win...
  • WarrenM
    It all depends, right? If you use low poly modeling with edge weights, you can REALLY iterate quickly.

    But if you're in ZBrush, yeah, basically iteration means "do that piece over again".
  • Amsterdam Hilton Hotel
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    Amsterdam Hilton Hotel insane polycounter
    Right at the beginning they explain why for them it is the opposite. It's much harder to edit all the edges and vertices of a subd modeling mesh. It's faster to restart a piece from scratch in let's say Modo, bring that back into ZBrush - Dynamesh and done.

    my counterpoint is that any workflow where throwing away work is part of the process is not efficient, or safe for production.

    i find editing precise mechanical models is a lot easier in modeling programs, which are designed for it. most of my highpoly models nowadays are just a primitive and a modifier stack... tough to beat that for ease of iteration
  • Moosebish
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    Moosebish polycounter lvl 12
    i find editing precise mechanical models is a lot easier in modeling programs, which are designed for it. most of my highpoly models nowadays are just a primitive and a modifier stack... tough to beat that for ease of iteration

    Its also quite common that sometimes the person adjusting the model isn't the person who created it to begin with. This would create a lot of problems down the road if the model ever needed to be updated quickly, by someone else.
  • ZippZopp
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    ZippZopp polycounter lvl 12
    WarrenM wrote: »
    One thing these videos never show is what happens when the art director wants you to change something. That's where modeling apps win...

    my thoughts exactly. everytime i attempt something complex in zbrush, I realize more and more how much I rely and depend on a 3d application. i've found it to be great for experimentation and quick mock ups, but when working in a production setting, the 3d app, for me, always wins out due to flexibility.
  • WarrenM
    I know you've just found a new hammer, but I don't think hard surface modeling is the nail you're looking for. It feels great right now .. I went through this phase as well ... but eventually the new car smell will fade and you'll likely find yourself back in a modeling app.

    In all seriousness, I would put MODOs edge weighting up against ZBrush for fast iteration any time. Iteration time in MODO is going to be many times faster.
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    I want to see them do this workflow at actual artist speed. It seems inefficient to poly model all of these cutting shapes and not just model the final object. None of these guns are very complicated to model and their example (the rail system on the ar variant) isn't that technical of a model.

    I like the idea that they are approaching this as a series of machining tasks. That concept breaks down on any objects that weren't originally deisgned to be fabricated on a mill. Also, watching him do simple tasks with smoothing and polish brushes that rely on zbrush pivots and radial symmetry is a little painful. I think part of why all of this works for redstorm is that they are building real world objects that were mostly drawn in cad programs with similar operations sitting on 90 degree viewing planes. As soon as you have anything based on concept art or your have an AD doing redesigns and paint overs it would become a nightmare.
  • WarrenM
    people at Epic Games as well
    Can you cite an example of this? I know some of the character artists will do hard surface pieces for their characters in ZBrush but none of the environment/weapon/vehicle guys work in ZBrush (for detailing, yes, but not base modeling).
  • WarrenM
    "I've been using more Zb lately but only for organic chunks or for fine tuning/detailing existing Max stuff. I'm definitely going to use Zb on the Shock but not until I get all of the foundation meshes and functionality done in Max first."

    Right, that doesn't sound like he's doing hard surface in ZBrush.
  • martinszeme
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    martinszeme polycounter lvl 8
    I've been also experimenting with doing booleans putting on subdivide modifier (basically triangulating mesh a lot for those not using max) and then exporting that. Sometimes this way it works out better, sometimes the zbrush workflow shown in the video is better.
    I wish there was a bit more control in zbrush or I am just missing something in the workflow.
  • cookedpeanut
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    cookedpeanut polycounter lvl 12
    It's possible to create a little more flexibility simply by frequently saving the model between merges. Since the whole process is just booleon ops, changing something and then quickly re-doing the dynamesh for the rest of the model is not that time consuming.

    I think the main advantage here as-well, in my opinion at-least, is that it's possibly to create complex high poly models with consistent edge widths for baking. You're also incorporating the detail process into the whole workflow, so you're also essentially eliminating the need for cross-processing the model between applications.

    Still, my question that I have yet to hear on is how the guy in the video manages to dynamesh that M1 frame from so many tools when, for me at-least, I cannot dynamesh my piston beyond two times before it becomes un-useable. I want to know more on his workflow or how it's possible to dynamesh the model without it messing up.
  • instg8r
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    instg8r polycounter lvl 8
    I've started incorporating this into my workflow as well, but it's really on a select basis. I'm always bringing in relatively high poly pieces based off of a proxy and as I'm building out the high poly in Max, I'm evaluating which is going to give me less headache. The new Open SubD tools in Max are quite nice, but with my limited experience seem to be time consuming for certain things. A combination of techniques is what I find most productive.
  • mattyinthesun
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    mattyinthesun polycounter lvl 4
    I have found myself using Dynamesh for a lot of "Boolean" operations for mechanical parts. I model the component pieces in Maya, chuck them over to ZBrush, and dynamesh everything together. I still prefer making my base parts in Maya, but that might change the more I use this process.

    Honestly, I find it quite freeing - I can jamb a bunch of shapes together, and not worry too much about edge flow, pinching around holes etc.

    I have found that for dynamesh sub to work correctly you want to reset all polygroups (make all objects just one polygroup) - seems to give more predictable results.
  • cookedpeanut
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    cookedpeanut polycounter lvl 12
    Managed to get it working pretty well, it seems the best way to use this workflow is to group all tools via their purpose. So everything that's subtractive must be one group and everything to add must be another. So this time I deleted the lower sub div levels and grouped all the subtractive components together, the result is pretty nice - I'm especially liking the nice edges, perfect for baking!
    44.gif
    And remember, if I exclude my trial and error, then this asset took approximately 20 minutes to make - in my books at-least, that's fast!
  • cookedpeanut
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    cookedpeanut polycounter lvl 12
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx0GwZWDFFU

    Files if you want to go along with the video and see the results yourself...
    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7741113/Piston_V2.obj
    http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?177194-DynaMesh-Master!-unofficial-Information-Installation

    Also, it would be pretty cool to see some people's own attempts? Maybe we could get a lil Dynamesh thread going for hard surface stuffz.

    Post up if you manage to get anything out of this!
  • cookedpeanut
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    cookedpeanut polycounter lvl 12
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    Looks pretty sweet on the piston.
  • Popeye9
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    Popeye9 polycounter lvl 15
    Thanks for the video. I tried the method you used with it all grouped as one and I kept getting certain pieces that where adding as opposed to subtracting. This doesnt make sense since they all show white polygoup before pressing dynamesh. Not sure why this happens.
  • cookedpeanut
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    cookedpeanut polycounter lvl 12
    You said that you added support loops to your meshes. Did you try to not do that in your traditional 3D application and just ''Crease'' in ZBrush?

    This is simply an extension to my workflow, I'm not looking to fully replace my hard surface routine - however, it has to be admitted that it's an incredibly useful solution to adding complex detail to a final model. No, for sure I add edge loops anyway, however what I was trying to explain is that to receive consistent results I'd advise making sure that no matter how simple a shape may be, edge loop it and make sure it can be subdivided while still retaining its original shape.

    @Popeye9
    Make sure the normals are correctly calculated on all of the tools and then set the layer to subtract. Also, only dynamesh the mesh you're going to subtract from and re-calculate after merging.

    Use the file I uploaded to see whether it works for you...
  • Popeye9
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    Popeye9 polycounter lvl 15
    Cookedpeanut I was using the mesh you supplied when I was getting this issue.
  • cookedpeanut
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    cookedpeanut polycounter lvl 12
    As I'm new to ZBrush and its workflow I can't offer any other advice then, It should work fine, I mean I didn't have problems replicating the same results more than once...
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