The Best Approach to Character Art?
polycounter lvl 7
2D and 3D characters are what I'm interested in making.
It's one of the few things I care about doing in life.
But I simply cant figure out an "approach" that I can have faith in.
Thought it was finally time to consult the community, after about 150 hours of effort (Yup... I record every hour devoted to character art)
So, even though I'm a decent 3D modeler, I've gone to 2D since tons of individuals said that I should. Also, I've never come across a "good" character artist who didnt have a 2D background of some sort.. Makes sense... sort of... And that's where I've been for about 6 months. Trying to figure out perspective and copy human forms. Stuff like that.
However, I wont kid myself, or anyone else. I dont like drawing.
Or more specifically, I dont like sucking at drawing.
I only sort of enjoy it when I set out to make something, and SOMETHING gets MADE, and since I'm not a skilled 2D artist, that rarely happens... Ends up being torturous..
This is where I feel others had a massive advantage, starting as children.
They had literally nothing better to do (especially if you grew up in the before the year 2000) when friends werent around to play games with. This allowed them the incentive to sit there drawing "whatever" for leisure... This is what I feel I'm lacking..
As an adult (age 26) I feel like time is precious. Not to mention there are tons of things i'd rather be doing than failing at drawing.
I'm fueled by the idea that one day I'll be able to make some awesome CG that meets my standards, but I'm sitting here day after day, trying to take a direct approach to the task... Trying to break everything down into steps... Very technical and all that. But I really dont feel like I'm learning, and I believe that's due to lack of practical experience... One of the many advantages that early learners have over me.
I have zero desire to make original works, which I know will turn out like garbage (I know because I've tried a handful of times). Even though I know it would pay off in the long run, it just doesnt FEEL like it will, as it's much harder to chart your progress when you're just (more or less) screwing around. And as an adult, progress is sort of the goal.
So, what should i do?
Is there some sort of tool out there to make it fun for individuals who are just starting out?
How did you guys learn?
Without help, I suspect I'll be struggling for many more months to come. So, your input would be appreciated.
Thanks
It's one of the few things I care about doing in life.
But I simply cant figure out an "approach" that I can have faith in.
Thought it was finally time to consult the community, after about 150 hours of effort (Yup... I record every hour devoted to character art)
So, even though I'm a decent 3D modeler, I've gone to 2D since tons of individuals said that I should. Also, I've never come across a "good" character artist who didnt have a 2D background of some sort.. Makes sense... sort of... And that's where I've been for about 6 months. Trying to figure out perspective and copy human forms. Stuff like that.
However, I wont kid myself, or anyone else. I dont like drawing.
Or more specifically, I dont like sucking at drawing.
I only sort of enjoy it when I set out to make something, and SOMETHING gets MADE, and since I'm not a skilled 2D artist, that rarely happens... Ends up being torturous..
This is where I feel others had a massive advantage, starting as children.
They had literally nothing better to do (especially if you grew up in the before the year 2000) when friends werent around to play games with. This allowed them the incentive to sit there drawing "whatever" for leisure... This is what I feel I'm lacking..
As an adult (age 26) I feel like time is precious. Not to mention there are tons of things i'd rather be doing than failing at drawing.
I'm fueled by the idea that one day I'll be able to make some awesome CG that meets my standards, but I'm sitting here day after day, trying to take a direct approach to the task... Trying to break everything down into steps... Very technical and all that. But I really dont feel like I'm learning, and I believe that's due to lack of practical experience... One of the many advantages that early learners have over me.
I have zero desire to make original works, which I know will turn out like garbage (I know because I've tried a handful of times). Even though I know it would pay off in the long run, it just doesnt FEEL like it will, as it's much harder to chart your progress when you're just (more or less) screwing around. And as an adult, progress is sort of the goal.
So, what should i do?
Is there some sort of tool out there to make it fun for individuals who are just starting out?
How did you guys learn?
Without help, I suspect I'll be struggling for many more months to come. So, your input would be appreciated.
Thanks
This discussion has been closed.
Replies
150 hours might seem like a lot of time, but think about it practically. That's a little less than a week of nonstop work. The people that make the most inspiring art here on Polycount have been practicing their skills for hundreds, thousands, even tens of thousands of hours, over the course of many years in both a professional and non-professional environment.
Traditional drawing skills can definitely help you in terms of learning things like anatomy and learning how to concept properly, but at the end of the day, 2D skills and 3D skills are still very separate skills I think.
I think you could benefit from worrying less about seeing actual "progress" and focus more on just making some awesome art. Good characters can take months of work if you go from concept to a final asset. Don't kick yourself if you aren't seeing AAA quality work after a week.
I think it'd be best to focus on doing 3D character art, then just dedicate a few hours a week to improving your 2D skills, that way you can improve in both while also being able to focus on your dream.
Also, don't be embarrassed if your work isn't high quality. Everybody starts out as a beginner at some point. The art posted here on Polycount can definitely be intimidating sometimes but it's important to realize that art isn't a race or competition, you aren't going to end up starving and living in a dumpster if your work isn't the best on this site, so don't be afraid to post your WIPs and ask for critiques!
In terms of learning the specific skills for character art (again I'm not the best person to be giving advice in this area) I would suggest focusing on basic learning exercises first. Take a sphere in your 3D application of choice and spend an hour trying to turn it into a skull. Once an hour is up, put the skull in a separate folder on your desktop, and title it "skull1." Then open a new document and do it again in an hour.
I guarantee that you will see some great progress once you reach "skull10" or more, and at that point, the task will become easier.
There are also some great courses for learning a lot of character related stuff over the internet, and that might also be a good route to take.
Whatever you decide to do, good luck!
The thing is, practice makes perfect, as they say. You have to put thousands over thousands of hours of work into it. It is hard, slow process, but eventcually you will become objectively good artist. But there is a catch. You have to enjoy doing art to some degree, even if the result is bad. Because spending next 10,000 hours doing what you absolutely hate is not the smartest idea.
I, personally, spent hundreds of hours learning to draw. I managed to improve from absolutely zero level and got decent result, I had a couple of insights that improved my art drastically, but... nope, I still hated every second I spent drawing. I decided to stop trying and it makes me much happier, especially because I can still use my knowledge of art, not directly, but it is useful.
At the end of the day, the only thing you need to decide: are you sure you want to do art for the rest of your life? Can you enjoy the process of creating art (draw, 3d, whatever it is). If the answer is YES, you got to practice for thousands of hours and eventually you will become good, do it and dont doubt yourself. If the answer is NO, just move on to something else, nothing wrong with it.
you don't have to be good 2D artist to be good at 3D, it helps if you are, but it's not a requirement. forget about artists that can draw and do 3D, those guys have been doing it long time. you don't need to know both when starting out.
everyone wants to make great art, but no one wants to go through years of painful practice.
from what i'm reading, you don't like doing it. 150 hours is actually nothing.
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i disagree with NegevPro on limiting yourself to an hour, when you are starting out, i don't think it's a good idea to rush things. take your time, get it right first, speed will come later.
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i learned to use 3ds max through modding gta sa and from there i started taking 3D seriously and eventually loved doing it.
here is how you learn,
you download 3ds max, you make a cylinder and put sphere on top, attach sphere to cylinder, then you apply bend modifier and bam, you have a penis that you can bend 360 degrees.
there you go, you learned what bend modifier. now you are one step closer to your goal.
"I wish I were ripped like Ronnie Coleman, but I don't like working out. Is there any way to get that big without hitting the gym"?
I feel we should post this:
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=128692
Not to scare you, but to let you know the reality of the scarcity of jobs, and how competetive the field really is.
We're looking at an estimated 1000ish in-studio jobs in the western world. To put it in perspective: There's more NFL roster spots.
If that doesn't scare you then good luck!
this makes me sad =[
and you say you hate drawing/sucking at drawing. but everyone wants to be better at drawing, the only way you could possibly have a hope of putting in the amount of work required to master drawing, is if you actually enjoy doing it.
as though drawing is this last resort way of passing the time if you have LITERALLY nothing else to do.
growing up I drew rather than hang out with friends. It was all I wanted to do, it wasnt because I had nothing else to do.
After reading unit's message, and watching some TED videos regarding artists, I've decided to lower my standards and expectations. Just stop thinking about things so much and just draw.
It can be therapeutic if there is no "fail factor" and doesn't feel like work. I gave it a shot after listening to some speeches, and it's sort of fun. I think I'll be able to push through. Once I have the skill to bring my visions to life, it'll become a lot more enjoyable.
Epic arts.
To me, the approach to character artist, or anything in that regards is kind of like this. Say, to make a character; I need Knowledge and Understanding of how anatomy works. This includes shapes, forms, proportions, and silhouette. I also need Proficiency in tools or software to make it. At first I only did polygonal modeling in Maya, and I had no clue how other people make awesome kickass stuff. Then I learned to texture (crappy stuff), and started learning ZBrush. Many software has steep-learning curve. But you have to know enough to work with it. To get the desired result. To get muscles and not blobs. To get jackets to look like leather and not muddy iron. And Experience to know what the heck you are doing :P
Don't frickin worry about time. Most amazing artist explain that they made the best art when they were playing and not worrying about dying and losing time and all that shit.
We make art to enjoy our lives making it not manufacture it by rote.
This video might help
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atn22-bmTPU
"Being shitty at something is the first step to being kind of good at it."
and
"Everyone has a hundred shitty drawings in them before their first decent one."
Finally, unproductive things to do existed before the internet was common at home. We had plenty of television and game consoles to waste our time on... you'll have to pick on those born before 1950 or so if you wanna go that route. (=
You should work hard until the garbage artwork is out of your system and you're finally at a point where you can make good stuff.
That's all.
Yes, you need to learn stuff. Yes, you need to research and keep up with technology and industry trends. Yes, you need to practice anatomy and whatever else. Yes yes yes.
In the end, though, you need to work. Hard. For a long time. That's the magic solution.
Go. Work. For a long time.
What about Hard-Surface artists? Are there more opportunities as that, then a character artist, or do they usually just get outsourced?
Is this means without 2D background, i can't be 3D character modeler? Also for me drawing is not for me, i do not enjoy it. These people who draw and model are those who started at very early stage of their life. I am almost 26. And i can't do something that i don't like it, it is wasting my time.
So if i don't have 2D skill, i no one will employ me.
that's my biggest problem with what was said in the first post: "i've never seen a good character artist who wasn't good at drawing". which is bullshit.
sure, having a strong 2D skillset will help you move through 3D faster, but there are plenty of good 3D artists who either can't or don't draw in 2D.
I'd like to see one, as I've never seen one before.
Can you provide an artisti?
Thanks for the link Torch
Okay, so this artist was suggested by Robeomega, then.
This guy definitely has the ability to make realistic busts.
But, in my opinion, being a good character artist isn't just about being able to look at something at model it. That would make him a good modeler... which is different.
Aside from one piece in his portfolio, none of his works suggest any level of creativity.
And I suspect the creative piece is based on a concept, but that's just an assumption.
I also feel that he lacks the ability to create believable gestures, based on a couple of his posed models.
Perhaps he has other work that I havent seen, that better portrays his ability, but based on the portfolio alone, I feel he could greatly benefit from drawing, and I dont consider him a good artist. But, he does seem to be a good "modeler".
It's the concept artist's job to concept/design - that's why so many artists struggle, they are trying to be a top notch designer & modeler. You can be both but focusing on one or the other will get you into the industry faster.
Yes. They do split up the roles in studio environments, and being a good modeler may get your foot into the door faster, but it wont make you a good artist, because that ability isnt coming from "within", if you catch my drift. Where's his signature? The visual representation of his personality? I don't call that art. Therefore, I wouldn't count him among artists.
Not that being an "artist" would push up him the social ladder or anything... lol but that's just what I'm aiming for.. To be a "good artist". I'm already a fair modeler.
However, between working fulltime, modelling character in my spare time, learning how to program (occasionally if I can force myself to stop modelling) and sleeping 6 and a half hours a night, I still fit in about 30 minutes of gesture drawings a day before work.
Point being, try not to major in everything. Splitting your time evenly between all these things will most likely make you average in all these things.
If you focus on one, and let the rest suppliment your main ambition (I would like to write scripts to help speed up my modelling/gesture draw to help with my sculpts rather than being a fully fledged 2D concept artist) then you can be a good 3D artist and still have ancillary skills to help support you on your way.
I'm not looking for a job. Already a freelance modeler.
I want to become an artist for myself.
Naturally, i'd use the skill to help make more money, but I wouldn't be seeking employment.
Then keep working at it, there is no secret shortcut.
It's not a hard & fast rule but it's generally believed that 10,000 hours of focused work & practice is what you need to be an "expert". So you've got 9,850 hours to go.
LOL
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Alright, So these are the artists that I know that definitely have a 2D background.
http://hazardousarts.deviantart.com/gallery/
I've seen Hazardous' stuff on polycount a couple times.
He's talked about how 2D has benefited him in the past, and tells of how he actually re-approached 2D in order to approve his 3D works, even after learning the fundamentals.
http://usmanhayat.deviantart.com/gallery/
This guys understanding of form really blows my mind. He (and I) believe that his ability to translate 2D characters from popular cartoons/anime into 3D comes from his experience with traditional art.
http://jprart.deviantart.com/gallery/
http://ikameka.deviantart.com/gallery/?catpath=/
http://ybourykina.deviantart.com/gallery/
I have no evidence to prove that Costin V has a 2D background, but I firmly believe he does, for now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHri7ddRyA0&feature=youtu.be
The difference seems pretty clear to me.
Oh and dont judge me for actively browsing deviantart.
If you want to learn 2D, you need to sit down, get to work (150 hours is NOTHING), and realize it's not always gonna be fun. The older and more critical about art your become, the harder it will be, but it's never impossible if you're smart about it.
lol definitely. But I'm trying.
Drew a bit today. My version of cloud for FF7.
It's utter shit, but after reading all the responses to this thread, I really feel better about my mistakes and shitty work. I'm just going to draw exactly what I want to draw, and occasionally learn how to make small improvements, like to the hands, for example... keep building on overtime, so it doesnt get too stressful.
Previously, i was just cramming book knowledge and following video tutorials...
Here's Korra from Legend of Korra =P
I don't disagree with that theory, just adding that after you breakthrough your initial 10,000 hours you might realize that there are other 10K hours of mastery to achieve beyond that.
10,000 hours mastering anatomy
10,000 hours mastering color theory and painting
10,000 hours figure sculpting
10,000 hours mastering tech art
etc.
Staggering yeah but not so intimidating when you set for yourself to improve for the rest of your life.
Oh burn!
There are different kinds of drawing. I am good at observational drawing, but my concepting is awful ie making things up without ref. But my 3d is ok, as is my texturing.
So just to say that if you are not a great 2d artist , then you can't be a character artist is just nonsense.
No one said this.
oh right i must have misunderstood what you wrote then
you really don;t need to be a great 2d guy to be a 3d guy, though it's nice if you have that skill.
I Specialize in modelling and texturing and have never once been asked in over 12 years doing 3d to do concepts for anyone.
does n't mean that I can't draw, just that I prefer to focus on modelling and texturing.
for the record I have met loads of great artists, some of them tech illustrators who can't even draw stick men.
I think the real issue here is that 'you' are struggling with 2d so it's as if you are doing yourself down and being overly simplistic about skillsets.
I assume you're being sarcastic... but at the same time, the statement your quoted is clearly different from your interpretation.
"2D background of some sort" doesn't mean "great 2D artist"
You have to remember that most of us character artists here have been doing this for years, especially a lot of the ones you linked. In some of our cases, over a decade. We all started as crap usually, but we all got better because instead of making long posts as to why we were not good enough here on polycount, we just kept working to get better. Less talk, more action.
Show us your 3D stuff.
(For the record, it will be a challenge to get any one on here to publicly call out another artist as 'is not good at 2D'.
I'm aware that 150 hours is child's play. I only mentioned that in order to suggest that I have put forth some sort of effort before asking for help.
My post isn't about "frustration". It's just as the title suggests. I was just in need of a different approach, as I didn't feel I was making progress with my old one.
I know it takes years. But as an adult, it tends to be important to know whether or not you're making progress.
I'll attach some 3D stuff.
What was your learning process?
according to you someone is not an artist if they dont sign their work.
this means you are talking more about fine artists. fine artists dont necessarily need to have strong academic drawing skills in order to classify themselves as artists. they can just grab two manhole covers, spread some white cement inbetween and call it oreo art of some sort. it is art because he is expressing himself and making a statement about our socioeconomic bla bla bullshit.
on the other hand, you are linking to artists who are mainly craftsman and not "artists" in the traditional sense. they all have strong technical skills that require lot of precision work and craftsmanship.
so which is it ?
you wanna be a craftsman, or a fartist ?
lol i didn't mean a signed signature...
Yes, art would be when one's expressing something. If you were just working from a reference, then you aren't expressing anything, and I dont consider that art. but your example would indeed be art (the manhole thing) in my opinion.
The artists I linked all have a proper understanding of their subject, and they use that knowledge and perception to bring their visions to life.
When I look at their work, I can feel their "extreme" interest in the human form.. and I believe it's clear that they're manifesting what's inside their head. -- That's what I consider art to be.
Doesn't necessarily have to be a specific character design. Could just be an emotion, or something they're feeling, portrayed through a character that might not even be all that significant on it's own.