I'm writing this in respnse to some comments about people on welfare I saw on the http://boards.polycount.net/showflat.php...;gonew=1#UNREAD thread. Mainly Irritants comment "I got to see the how the "welfare state" worked".
I want to share some thoughts with you about social sevice programs in the US. First a little background on me so you know where all this is coming from. I'm a single father of three young children. I work at Indiana University doing tech support for students faculty and staff. A little over 3 years ago the mother of my children left me. As a single parent I didn't make enough to afford daycare and pay the rent. I applied for a childcare subsidy program. Now my daycare expences are paid for. This sounds good but it has a major drawback. For my family size, if I make over $22,000 a year i lose all subsidies. Yes I make under 22,000 a year. The pay rate in Bloomington is awful:p Here comes the fun part, I have had to turn down jobs where my gross pay would be 23,000-25,000 dollars because I wouldn't be able to afford daycare working at them. My daycare expences per year would be $15,600 . So even before taxes that would leave me with very little to live on. Unfortunately this isn't the only program that I am involved with, but it's pretty typical of of them all. I seem to get penalized for trying to save money or trying to better my situation. Why aren't these programs stepped at all? It seems to be financially irresponsible to have these programs and not have a way to ween the participants off of them. would it be better for the government to pay $300 a week for daycare or pay $150. that answer seems obvious to me but it doesn't work that way.

Thankfully I'll be off these programs in a year. A wonderful woman found me and wants to marry me. With our combined incomes we should be able to make it easily. I also can finally take a higher paying job then. This however shouldn't be the only way one can get off these programs. The welfare to work program has been in effect for many years now but the types of jobs that they help people find are all minimum wage and not enough to get people back on thier feet. There is no job training or education offered at all with these. Comment, rant of flame away. Thanks for taking the time to listen to my disorganised ramblings.

but hey - it's so much easier to think of people on welfare as non-white, drug addicted, alcoholic single moms who are too lazy to go work for $6.50 an hour.

Remember, a woman's place is in the home taking care of the kids. Unless she's a single mom, then she should get off of her lazy ass and go to work.

I've personaly know people on both sides of that fence AZ the problem with the system is it keeps people who want to better them selves from doing it, and it prewards the people who just want a hand out by making it more profitable not working. the whole system is pretty flawed, it should work for those who try to make thinks better, and those who try to just exploit it should be weened from the system.

I've seen women with child support checks use the money to buy massive amounts of beer and cigarettes to help them deal with the issue of TRYING to raise their kids. I've also seen women use WICs to buy their children baby formula, and cereal...and in the same cart, buy about $80 worth of Budweiser and Marlboro's, plus groceries. I could go on. Meanwhile, people in some need of a little support like myself and many others are not eligible for EBT or Medicaid. Luckily I was able to get a nice sized grant for school. Some people make less than $180 a week, and are expected to pay $200 up front for a simple doctor's visit.

The system has failed.

Well I'll respond to this, since it was my comments that obviously spurred the thread.

There is nothing wrong having a welfare program, and the scenario that Techsmith has lived through is a good example. He should be commended for his efforts raising 3 children alone, and he's obviously a case where the system has worked, keeping him afloat until he could better his life.

As Elysium said, you also have the people using their welfare money to buy liquor, drugs, etc, and having more babies so they can get larger checks, and nothing is ever done about it.

I think my point might have been missed in my fairly vitriolic original post. I'm not advocating the abolition of welfare. I'm advocating the reform of it.

I have a very hard time believing that you've actually "seen" that Ely. People are not allowed to use WIC to buy cigs and booze.

Actually you can't buy those with the EBT cards or WIC. That won't stop you from blowing what little money you have on them though.

here in the uk, we get the idea of 'sponging off the state' from our very own MPs who claim more in expenses than they earn in salaries.
funny how you spend years paying taxes/national insurance then soon as you try and claim stuff back you get hassled by the scum who rule our country.

They used the WICs to buy $50+ in baby supplies. Then used the money out of their pockets to buy the $80+ in booze and smokes. Either way, it seems very unfair. Money that's intended to support children is used to feed their parent's expensive habits. Sorry I was unclear about that. I've seen it because I had no choice but to let them get away with it. No company policies were in place to prevent it. The system does need to be reformed.

Techsmith, it has good points and bad points, no system is flawless, your on the right side of the law, please don't feel picked on or singled out - funny thing is, as much as a total ahole my Dad was and is, he never used his umemployment benifits until he got laid off after 30 yrs in one job, he used welfare checks and umemployment benifits until he finally began driving a truck 9 months later. It almost killed him to do it. I have been working since I was 14, and went to work full time out of school when my schoolmates were still trying to lose their virginity.

Some of us get prickly when we see abuse, like Ely seen, I can count on both hands direct and indirect relatives who are currently abusing the system whether it is welfare or workers comp or something and my wife can do the same.

I don't think either school wants people to hurt who are trying, it just needs reform. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Remember, a woman's place is in the home taking care of the kids. Unless she's a single mom, then she should get off of her lazy ass and go to work.

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I do not agree with you...I can't stand children. I absolutely hate housework. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Back to the subject: I think a welfare program is very important. There are always people who manage to abuse the system, but there are much more people who really need it. I think it would be great to offer some kind of job training or education aswell, but not everyone will be able to work (because of poor physical or mental health for instance).

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We do need a serious reform of many of our nations social services. From social security, to welfare, to government education assistance (grants, etc).

I was unemployed for 2 periods of around 3 months within a 1 year timespan. For those total 6-7 months of unemployment that year, I only filed for 2 weeks worth of unemployment. I used my limited savings to get by, as I've always been one of those "get by on my own steam" kinda guys. Impressed by my own meager self-reliance.

Unfortunatly some of my more conservative compatriots feel that everybody should be that same way, or they can starve to death. Darwinism they say.

I knew a family who's entire income was derived soley from the government. The father got Social Security (he was a senior) the mother got welfare AND disability ( she was overweight to the point of not being able to work ). They had lived off government funds for nearly 15 years when I met and dated thier daughter.
Dad died the day I was to meet him, and after that they couldnt afford to live since his Soc-Sec checks stopped coming. So they moved to California and dropped thier daughter in my lap saying "Honey, your 17 and I cant afford to care for you, so I hope your boyfriend makes a good living, bye!"

I ended up living with her for nearly 3 years, and the entire time she was unable to maintain a job or be responsible AT all. Now this may have been because she was 17, but I was 17 when I moved out on my own, so...thats not a valid excuse. I think its because her parental figures never really worked a day of her life, and so she never developed any sort of work ethic. She would quit a job just because she didn't feel like taking the bus to get there one day. She'd spend the rent(when she had it) on rental movies, booze and smokes. Sometimes Pot. Total lack of care for personal responsibility, and I knew a good number of her friends and many operated with the same mind-set. Why work when the government or friends will care for me?
When I finally got fed up and dumped her, she was forced to maintain a job, whether she liked it or not. Forced to pay rent. To buy her own food. TO budget her limited resources. Until many people are FORCED into self reliance, they will continue to abuse whatever support they can get. Thats why mother birds PUSH thier babies out of the nest. We need to offer a helping hand, but when the time comes we've gotta push these people out of the nest, and they at that point need to fly or fall.

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I save my hostilities for those abusing the system at
the top of the tree, not the bottom. I suppose at some point it just comes down to whose side you are on.

I for one come from an area where the majority of the people living there (more than 60%) relied on government "income" to get through their busy lives smoking and drinking and making more income which by that I mean babies.

The very southern tip of texas was very strange to me. I couldn’t and still can’t get over the fact that there are generations of families that somehow believe that the extent of their lives is to:

1. get pregnant/someone pregnant at an early age
2. get on welfare to pay for their mistake babies
3. have even more kids to get even more welfare

And that’s it. That’s the extent of someone’s life and I’m being serious. And in a situation like that it’s very tough for a child to break out of it when the parents don’t set an example, in fact they encourage it. Why ENCOURAGE your kids to ruin their lives by having kids of their own at an early age just so they don’t have to work because the govt can pay for their “livelihood”?

Education is what is definitely needed for these situations, and I agree that ultimately it’s that actual push that people need in order to break away from these self-destructive cycles. I believe that the welfare system works if people use it how it was meant to be used and not use it as a “profession”.

Kudos to you techsmith. It takes a lot to work and care for a family with minimal government assistance. I think of how my mom struggles to pay bills with her meager job vs her worthless welfare siblings now after reading your post.

Its just so insulting to say that all people who claim welfare drink and smoke and generally waste their money.
And even if they did, its none of your damn business.
And education is not an option for everyone. Some people just want to have a job , but in some parts there are not many jobs , so claiming benefits is the only option.
You make it sound like the only 'bad' people out there are on welfare.
I grew up in an area where the government closed down most of the manfacturing sector and so a whole generation grew up relying on state handouts. THAT is a difficult cycle to break, because governments subsequently decided to ignore whole areas of the country, feeling its easier to let people claim benefits than to invest in their future with real jobs.
All am saying is that its a bit simplistic to blame these people when the reason things turned out this have a lot to do with economic policy over several generations as much as individual laziness.

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Its just so insulting to say that all people who claim welfare drink and smoke and generally waste their money.
And even if they did, its none of your damn business.

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Some of us feel otherwise, since we're paying for them to do so. I for one would rather choose whose life I subsidize, and how.

Frank the Avenger

In the year that I worked at Early Head Start I can honestly say that I only saw one case where I suspected that a single mom was abusing the system. My gf has worked at EHS for several years now and I can't think of a single case where she has told me about a family abusing the system. The vast majority of these people are working hard and struggling to keep up, much less get ahead.

I agree with Ruz, I am more outraged by the abuse that goes on at the top of the food chain as opposed to the bottom.

"And education is not an option for everyone"

I disagree. Public school is free. Those who take advantage of that, generally have a better shot than those who don't.

The biggest problem that I have seen, at least in my neck of the skyscapers, is that there is a culture that has no emphasis on it, even FROWNS on it. It's a horrible cycle, that is only getting worse.

As far as college goes, there are a number of policies that are in place that are fukt. I grew up very poor. My father had a failed business right around the time I graduated HS, and I was able to get good enough grades to get a partial scholarship, and get student loans and grants to cover the rest. My parents could not contribute a red cent, as they were barely staying afloat. The system was decent then(mid 80's). Then along come the 90's, politcal correctness, affirmative action, and the system now pays more attention to the color of your skin than it does your qualifications. My wife's sister, valedictorian of her class, 4.0 GPA, applied to 20 schools, and was only offered one, ONE, partial scholarship. Her friend, who happened to be a minority, had a C average, applied to many of the same schools was offered multiple full scholarships. The deck was stacked against her, to be sure. But you know what? She was able to get student loans, which ANYONE can get, btw, graduated Virginia Tech with honors, and now has a high paying government job.

So I don't want to here that education is not an option, because that is utter BS, and one of the biggest problems I see with the "enabling" that goes on with the democrats who pander to the race card, and to the poor, not to help them, but to win their votes. Because they aren't helping them. They are creating a culture that has become "reliant", and can't stand for themselves.

It wouldn't be that difficult to fix welfare. The problem is, certain people don't want it fixed.

quote - 'So I don't want to here that education is not an option'

That would sound more persuasive as an argument if you actually used 'hear' rather than 'here'.( joke)

Irritant, to be serious I meant that not everyone has the brains or even wants to go to college . some people enjoy working in a regular job rather than taking the college/further education route.

Anyway Its an old 'tory' policy to send everyone to college or put them on training schemes to make the unemployment figures look repsectable.
what is really needed is proper decent paying jobs but since manufacturing in still in decline , its just not going to happen any time soon and sending people to study at college for jobs that are just not there 'is' pure bullshit.
And so is making people work in crappy low paid jobs with no union represention.( ranting now)

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It wouldn't be that difficult to fix welfare. The problem is, certain people don't want it fixed.

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I would just love to hear your quick and easy solution to fixing welfare...

But I agree with techsmith about the income trap thing. Its can be quite tough to get off benefits when you are quite often better off financially being unemployed. My personal situation was that i finally just took a low paid job to get back on the 'treadmill'. You can soon lose you social skills when you are unemployed for any length of time

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It wouldn't be that difficult to fix welfare. The problem is, certain people don't want it fixed.

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I would just love to hear your quick and easy solution to fixing welfare...

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for starters...

1. Enforcement of existing limitations, restrictions, and reqirements. In a place like Baltimore, doing that would possibly alieniate those in power's voting base, so they don't do it.

2. Penalize those who continue to have children once on welfare, or at least don't reward them.

3. Require stronger supervision of recipients, and possibly provide more incentive for them to get off of welfare. Maybe create a better system in which welfare recipients are required to learn a trade, through a free state sponsored trade school.

4. Require recipients to provide receipts showing what they purchasing. Small price to pay for getting free money.

Just some ideas. Maybe some of this is already in place in some areas, but it's clear that little is ever enforced. I had a roomate that somehow managed to get unemployement for a year(it's only supposed to be for 6 months in MD), without even looking for a job. He just would look in the classified, write down some names, and mail it in. No enforcement of existing regulations.

So essentially your solution is to punish the children of welfare recipients for being born. Nice.

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Require stronger supervision of recipients, and possibly provide more incentive for them to get off of welfare. Maybe create a better system in which welfare recipients are required to learn a trade, through a free state sponsored trade school.

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Why should MY taxes go to pay for a state sponsored trade school?!?!? Fucking liberal.

Wow - chill AZ. Hope that was tongue in cheek.

I certainly would not be for something that is going to increase taxes. I'm saying allocate the money that would be saved by getting people OFF of welfare into something more productive then the current system of permanent welfare situations.

As far as the children, that is a little more dicey. But parents can be declared unfit and the child can be placed somewhere that would most certainly be a better environment. Hell even an orphanage would be much better than living in some of the situations I've seen in Baltimore and similar cities.

Yea, that was totally tongue in cheek. The fact is, I am all for programs that help people on welfare get off of social assistance. But I can just hear Rush now, discussing how liberals want to raise your taxes to pay for those too lazy to work or go to school (Rush has long since forgotten <u>his</u> time "on the dole," obviously).

The reality of it is, there are no easy answers and there is no easy fix. Your "solution" of cutting benefits outright is only going to lead to a higher crime rate. Welfare is a culture unto itself. It would take years and generations to fix the system.