I know many of you came from these but you admit yourself how much extra time and effort you had to put in because the schools failed to really prepare you or your knowledge/skills.

I see more people still going to these schools including some of our own members and I have to ask myself. Is the message not getting out?

Can we have an official Polycount article on this or a sticky being frank about what these schools can and cannot provide? At least one of their potential students who decides to do some research might come across this and rethink their strategy.

Its too late for them when they have already committed and find these complaints afterwords.

Does PC have to remain neutral on these?

I think as a community we should have a strong stance. Perhaps Adem can create an official position paper based on the what the Polycount community says.

My personal thoughts:

I've heard good things about a very few schools (Gnomon and full sail?)

I've heard bad things about a lot of schools (art and tech schools with 3D programs, and universities (can't land a job))

I think community college is great place to test the waters if you aren't a self learner and they have a 3D program.

Originally Posted by ZacD

I've heard good things about a very few schools (Gnomon and full sail?)

I don't know about anyone else, but whenever the topic of for-profit schools comes up, I don't even consider Gnomon to be in the same class as, say, the Art Institutes.

Certainly Gnomon is expensive, but they're explicit about their portfolio requirements, the faculty is comprised of some extremely talented artists currently working in the entertainment industry, and I don't think I've ever seen bad student work come out of there.

I think a frank examination of any potential benefits of attending an Art Institute (again, purely for the sake of example) would be an excellent idea, but the problem is that most people will look for the quickest, easiest way to land that 'cool' job without realizing the amount of work and dedication required, and unfortunately this is what the Art Institutes and schools like them are capitalizing on.

Aside from some form of Federal intervention, I don't see how that's going to change for the better.

Then again, as a college drop-out myself, I'm a strong advocate of self-teaching, and that slim percentage of people that could report a positive experience at a for-profit school likely would have had a similar success learning the craft without the schooling because of their own determination and aptitude.

Gnomon is amazing, though I believe they only give certificates?
I could be wrong however.

It's hard to blame a school when they are presenting you with an opportunity to learn the basics of game art. It is up to the student weather or not they want to take it a step further and put in the effort that is necessary to succeed.

But these are situations where students are encouraged to do basicly all the work on teaching themselves, and where the teacher actually doesn't know the correct knowledge, or knows anything at all.

Where the better option is to just not go there at all, and learn at home.

Until we have amazing super experienced game artists being teachers at schools, go to an art school instead.

Originally Posted by penrod

It's hard to blame a school when they are presenting you with an opportunity to learn the basics of game art. It is up to the student weather or not they want to take it a step further and put in the effort that is necessary to succeed.

Yeah, but I think the issue is that People are saying these school's failed to even teach them the basics, I mean fuck can anyone honestly say 1 year for 70,000 grand is worth it when dudes like Racer 445 who learned on their own are clearly better than some dudes who are actually in the industry let alone some of the games art students. If the statements that people are being told to learn from tutorials while the teachers while away time at the front of the class then thats the most broke ass shit ever.

Originally Posted by penrod

It's hard to blame a school when they are presenting you with an opportunity to learn the basics of game art. It is up to the student weather or not they want to take it a step further and put in the effort that is necessary to succeed.

The problem is penrod, that some of these "game design schools" don't even have qualified teachers, so even if the student(s) have the potential to achieve great things, without the "teachers" knowing any of the key fundamentals... then its hard to put full blame on the students.

Obviously there's going to be a majority of the class (more so in the first year I would take it) that just don't care, but there will also be a small few that truly care about the industry and learning and evolving their skill sets... and to throw that potential away because they don't have anyone to really teach them, well that's one of the BIGGEST issues I think that is currently plaguing these "game design" schools.

I've thought about this a fair bit, and I have 2 main ideas or suggestions I guess that I think would help this out.

It's unrealistic to get a course full of "current" working artists / programmers etc. in the game industry (or any industry, but I'm focusing on our industry right now), because of cost and the fact that i think a lot of these people do not want to leave and teach full time (still a young industry).

I think if schools (i know a lot do this already) ask current industry folk to come and do a lecture / Q&A type class(s) for their students, it will not only inspire these students to work harder, but they can get current industry people to talk about their experiences first hand.

The second idea (for schools though, i don't think this is too cost efficient) is to have programs focused on certain specializations. This industry is all about specialization now (is that a word?) and if we have focused courses working on a certain aspect of the industry, they could be churning out new breeds of artists, programmers, designers etc.

I think it is important for people in the industry to take some time out of their schedules and get in contact with a program they think is worth helping out, and to do a couple of lectures or Q&A's to inspire these students into really pushing themselves to bring them to the next level.

That's just my 3 cents... back to singularity (good game :P )

/rant

Originally Posted by JasonLavoie

and to throw that potential away because they don't have anyone to really teach them, well that's one of the BIGGEST issues I think that is currently plaguing these "game design" schools.
/rant

I disagree about it being a BIG issue~
Good students with a lot of potential will learn to study by themselves. They all end up in places like Polycount and talk about how their schools suck.
They don't need to be taught, sure it makes it a little bit easier but as every self-taught game artist knows, the things taught at game art classes are things that you can learn yourself online.

I'm with Autocon on this. It would be irresponsible to dismiss schools/programs without more thorough evaluation of each one, and, honestly, I doubt any of us here can do that without bias. Of course most art schools are way overpriced, and you won't learn everything you need through the courses alone. Is what you're getting worth the price you're paying? That's for you to decide, but remember that it's not just about what you are taught as much as it is what you do with the environment they provide in other students and staff, technological resources, etc. It's hard to put a dollar value on some things as much as we all might want to.

These kinds of jobs where talent, work ethic, and passion factors in your success are particularly difficult to evaluate in traditional school systems. You've got to meet them half way (and then some) by making the most out of bad assignments, be willing to learn on your own what they can't teach you in order to make the best product, and pay attention and deliver in your classes as if it were a real paying job (no matter how crappy a job it seems).

If anything, I would have more problems with encouraging people to just stay home and try to learn things on their own through the internet. Of course it's possible, and of course there are a lot of people who have done well teaching themselves, but I really think those cases are exceptional. It's difficult to convince a lot of young and impatient students on the value of some sort of degree or accreditation, but it definitely is not useless.

Originally Posted by penrod

It's hard to blame a school when they are presenting you with an opportunity to learn the basics of game art. It is up to the student weather or not they want to take it a step further and put in the effort that is necessary to succeed.

Would this sort of thinking work with any other type of degree? Do people graduate with an English BA without knowing how to use a comma? Do people major in history only to end up working night shift at the local Burger King? Are these travesties the student's fault or the school's?

Originally Posted by jrs100000

Would this sort of thinking work with any other type of degree? Do people graduate with an English BA without knowing how to use a comma? Do people major in history only to end up working night shift at the local Burger King? Are these travesties the student's fault or the school's?

Yes this happens, it happens all the time. Most people (that I know atleast) who go to college dont end up doing what they majored in or anything related to that field. Thats why I don't understand why people are all OH NO's this never happens at traditional colleges...

I also watched the vid, the only valid point she makes is those teachers that passed her with an A for that early shity work. They should be fired. But in her real portfolio her 2D/Graphic design stuff looked pretty good. There is already a thread on this whole stupid stripped whines about her degree stuff so I wont go further.


As for what Jason mentioned before about having industry professionals come to schools that is exactly what happened when I was going to AI. We had people from Rockstar, Infinity Ward, Insomniac, Obsidian, High Moon, SCEA, SOE and a few others I cant remember off the top of my head come to talk to classes. Some even held workshops. They were almost always artists, once or twice we would also get a hiring manager.

Not only that but all the teachers in the game art program had years of experience/still working in the industry. A few of my teachers had over 10 years of industry experience, some taught part time while still working in the industry and some did freelance work.

I know AI LA/Orange County did the same thing/had the same type of teachers. Maybe its just a fort lauderdale thing.

@kaze369 - you really cant compaire what Bernie Madoff did and the recruiting methods of for profit schools. As what he did was illegal and what for profit schools do is not. It might be kinda sleazy that they can get a lot of young kids to join there school who are never going to follow through with the work and walk away with nothing but the same can be said about traditional college.

They do what any recruiter dose when they want you to come to there school or buy there product. They tell you the absolute best outcome you could have and sell you on that. Thats what any and every salesmen dose. They have no need to tell you that if you dont work hard you wont get anywhere far. That is a life less and if it costs you 70grand then, well lesson learned and you hopefully wont make the foolish mistake of slacking off again.

@thegodzero - our AI had like 5 industry professional artists come to the school each year to review it.

Originally Posted by Autocon

Yes this happens, it happens all the time. Most people (that I know atleast) who go to college dont end up doing what they majored in or anything related to that field. Thats why I don't understand why people are all OH NO's this never happens at traditional colleges...

Yea, thats what I was trying to get at. There arnt many 4 year degrees in any field that will land a job on their own. The big difference with game degrees is that they cost a lot more and you look silly listing them on a resume for any non-game job.

Originally Posted by jrs100000

Yea, thats what I was trying to get at. There arnt many 4 year degrees in any field that will land a job on their own. The big difference with game degrees is that they cost a lot more and you look silly listing them on a resume for any non-game job.

Very true,they are completely worthless,nobody gives them any sort of real weight or respect compared to a 4 year degree. When i was looking for work in the UK a year ago i had to do a points calculator to determine if i had enough points to work in the UK. 4 year degree gave you a certain amount of points which helped improve your chances at working in the UK. The Art institute was listed as an option in the points calculator. No points! none what so ever. I missed having the right amount of points by 2,if i had a 4 year degree id possibly working there now! So in 10 years of 3d experience the AIH degree has helped me in no way what so ever,if i was able to get points from it it would be the first time its ever benefitted me but till this day its the most expensive piece of paper i have ever bought.

Originally Posted by Autocon

Yes this happens, it happens all the time. Most people (that I know atleast) who go to college dont end up doing what they majored in or anything related to that field. Thats why I don't understand why people are all OH NO's this never happens at traditional colleges...

I also watched the vid, the only valid point she makes is those teachers that passed her with an A for that early shity work. They should be fired. But in her real portfolio her 2D/Graphic design stuff looked pretty good. There is already a thread on this whole stupid stripped whines about her degree stuff so I wont go further.


As for what Jason mentioned before about having industry professionals come to schools that is exactly what happened when I was going to AI. We had people from Rockstar, Infinity Ward, Insomniac, Obsidian, High Moon, SCEA, SOE and a few others I cant remember off the top of my head come to talk to classes. Some even held workshops. They were almost always artists, once or twice we would also get a hiring manager.

Not only that but all the teachers in the game art program had years of experience/still working in the industry. A few of my teachers had over 10 years of industry experience, some taught part time while still working in the industry and some did freelance work.

I know AI LA/Orange County did the same thing/had the same type of teachers. Maybe its just a fort lauderdale thing.

@kaze369 - you really cant compaire what Bernie Madoff did and the recruiting methods of for profit schools. As what he did was illegal and what for profit schools do is not. It might be kinda sleazy that they can get a lot of young kids to join there school who are never going to follow through with the work and walk away with nothing but the same can be said about traditional college.

They do what any recruiter dose when they want you to come to there school or buy there product. They tell you the absolute best outcome you could have and sell you on that. Thats what any and every salesmen dose. They have no need to tell you that if you dont work hard you wont get anywhere far. That is a life less and if it costs you 70grand then, well lesson learned and you hopefully wont make the foolish mistake of slacking off again.

@thegodzero - our AI had like 5 industry professional artists come to the school each year to review it.

Well I have to disagree, the recruiting methods are the same and the only difference is that Madeoff stole peoples money. we can't forget that some of these schools are under federal investigation. if someone came to you saying he'll take care of your money, make it grow and that this guy had a good reputation, would you be the stupid one for losing your money.
My point is that these schools fill students with hope and a chance to do something they love only to have the student end up in debt with almost nothing to show and at the same time have people like us look down on them because they weren't as lucky we are. This "blame the victim" attitude needs to stop. I'm not necessarily talking about you, just some of the other criticisms that have been posted on the other thread. I do take some responsibility for not having the skills necessary to get a job in the game industry, clearly that girl didn't, but why not change the system as well.
This is why I agree with the original poster of this thread that the Polycount community should have a firm stance on "game schools" and the kind of content that should be taught to students.

edit: most of the jobs I've had have been in the education field. Mainly because my mother has good connections. But I really think it's bad advice to tell someone, "you have to be like me in order to be successful."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/04/ed...?_r=3&emc=eta1

A story on the schools being investigated.

The report does not identify the colleges involved, but it includes both privately held and publicly traded institutions in Arizona, California, Florida, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Texas and Washington, D.C

Any coincidence all of these states have Art Insitutes

Originally Posted by kaze369

Well I have to disagree, the recruiting methods are the same and the only difference is that Madeoff stole peoples money. we can't forget that some of these schools are under federal investigation. if someone came to you saying he'll take care of your money, make it grow and that this guy had a good reputation, would you be the stupid one for losing your money.
My point is that these schools fill students with hope and a chance to do something they love only to have the student end up in debt with almost nothing to show and at the same time have people like us look down on them because they weren't as lucky we are. This "blame the victim" attitude needs to stop. I'm not necessarily talking about you, just some of the other criticisms that have been posted on the other thread. I do take some responsibility for not having the skills necessary to get a job in the game industry, clearly that girl didn't, but why not change the system as well.
This is why I agree with the original poster of this thread that the Polycount community should have a firm stance on "game schools" and the kind of content that should be taught to students.

edit: most of the jobs I've had have been in the education field. Mainly because my mother has good connections. But I really think it's bad advice to tell someone, "you have to be like me in order to be successful."

Thats true I hate doing the whole "blame the victim angle" because it isnt fair to some. But I guess just from my experience with the fact that the people who didnt get into the industry were people who didnt put in work. They spent more time playing games then working on them. There have only been 2 artists who I went to school with who put in the work and turned out some great art that dont have jobs. But thats due to one not wanting to relocate and another has visa issues. Both did some great work.

So yeah I will try and not do the whole blame the victim thing, but all the "victims" I personally went to school with brought it on themselves so thats kinda why I dont feel sorry for them. I know this isnt the case for everyone though.

Also I wasnt trying to advise people that you have to be like me to be successful, as I dont think that at all. I was merely stating my experience and what I did so that I didn't have to become a stripper to pay my bills. It worked for me but I know that dosnt mean it will work for or is even possible for some.

We're lucky in Sweden i suppose. We don't have to pay for our education but most do take out a small loan to be able to live. For example my debt as i said in a previous thread was 10-11k for 2 years.

But still, it's the "same" here. Lots of people go there expecting to be rockstars in 3D and game art by the time they graduate. Most people didn't realize they had to work extra.

For some ungodly reason I did (and many others, maybe it was because of the people i hanged around?). We only had classes every now and then and long periods in between... but we did have personal spaces and personal computers in a room we could sit in 24/7 if we wanted.

Either way. Most of the people that spent the time got gigs. Haven't heard of many that didn't.... but that's probably because I didn't hang with them and don't haven any contact with them.

So yeah. School = Only one party a month, at most, shitloads of time spent in front of the computer. When your buds are out getting wasted doing hot chicks you should be pulling an all nighter infront of your computer. It's the only way you'll have a chance to get a job after school.


That's my opinion anyway and i've basically just repeated what everyone else has said... but eh. I almost never write long posts. Enjoy it! :P

It is up to the student weather or not they want to take it a step further and put in the effort that is necessary to succeed.

This ^

I guess I should be explicit when I say for profit. I mean schools with actual STOCK and/or many "campuses" across the country.

Gnomon, Digipen, Universities/Colleges, and Fullsail would not fall under this.

ITT, AI, UAT?, etc. Would.

Originally Posted by penrod

It's hard to blame a school when they are presenting you with an opportunity to learn the basics of game art. It is up to the student weather or not they want to take it a step further and put in the effort that is necessary to succeed.

Or an opportunity for "schools" to make money from spoiled kids and clueless parents.
Its like letting your cars doors open and the keys inside.
I once went to a open day at a game art school in holland to see if it was something for me.
A american named steve ford who was clearly a cocain addict showed his stuff and it was rediculously crappy, yet the parents and theyr 15 year old kids where impressed.
The only positive thing about that day was that german police stopped me and
my brother shortly after the border and thought that visiting a game art school
was the crappiest excuse ever to buy weed.

The article should also mention degrees don't matter, unless you want to move to another country to work in games within ~6 years, but I think it should also talk about the over school options besides for profit, even if the focus is those schools.

My high school visited a local AI school that just got built with video/graphics programs, it seems they basically talk to the big local companies and try to feed them their students. They were pretty aggressive with trying to get me to check out their 3D programs at other campuses.

Originally Posted by ZacD

The article should also mention degrees don't matter, unless you want to move to another country to work in games within ~6 years.

Completely false. Every studio I interviewed at and whilst working at Bungie all loved the fact that I had a degree. Each art director/art manager I spoke with like the fact that I had a degree. Yes you dont need one to get the job but that is compeltly diffrent from saying it dosnt matter because it dose, just not as much at a traditional job.

They all valued and admired that I was passionate about my chosen career path to spend the time to get a degree. They saw the value in learning from a teacher/mentor much like on the job site. About being forced to work alone on projects or in groups. Having deadlines to meet. Having to present work to others. Taking artistic classes like life drawing, sculpture and shit. A few even really liked the fact that classes that I had to take like animation and scripting gave me a better understanding of the project at large, what goes into the entire game and the type of time and limiting factors those other disciplines have in connection to my own.


I am in no way saying you need to get a degree. I got one, very happy I did. Wouldn't change it to save the 70 grand I spent over the 3 years. Made some of my best friends while at school/contacts at all the company's they now work for.

I feel the college life, the structured environment, the life long friends I made was well worth it to me for 70 grand which in reality is only a year and a half of working in the industry. Yes I think these schools are WAY over priced and there mainly out for the money which wasnt some big surprise to me.



I also find that a ton of people who bitch about how terrible these schools are people who never even went to them. They just spout off shit they hear from others based on some places teaching conditions and pricing. Maybe I just got lucky and AI San Diego is one of like 3 AI's that is any good but I honestly learned most everything I needed to in school from my teachers. I defnatly used PC and a few tutorials along the way to better improve myself as anyone who is passionate should but its not like I had a need to buy a Gnome or Eat3d DVD because of inadequate teaching.

Problem is with most people when in classes is they just dont listen, they goof off, hang out with there friends and read facebook. I always listend to everything the teachers said, look notes, talked with them after class on things I wanted to know more about since you can only dish out so much info in 4hrs. To which I never had a teach say oh no sorry I dont have time for this. They were always enthusiastic that some people wanted to learn all they could. Even sat in on classes I wasnt taking.

When doing projects/assignments I didnt half ass shit or not even do it like 90% of the people. I strived to make it the best work I could do and go beyond the assignment and expand on it because thats what I enjoy. I know nothing comes easy in life and if your not the best then your going to be some randy ass chump working at best buy for the rest of your life.


For profit schools have the same method of graduating people as high school dose. D is for diploma in both high school and in college. Thats why most people who graduate from high school never go to college (not including self taught artist and the like). There just like the people in college who just "pass" and never get a job. They are lazy slobs who dont really care about what they do and are so stupid they think that a high school diploma, or a college diploma will have them set for life.


EDIT: Also yes these schools are crazy expensive but there is so much free money flying around in scholarships its stupid. I got well over 15grand in scholorships by doing NOTHING more then writing a few 1 page papers on why I feel I should get said money and how it will benifit my life. And im a god awful writer. 95% of people never even try to get these scholarships (and this applies to every person attending college). There are thousands of dollars just floating at there for people to take. And much like school, most people dont have the drive or are just to stupid to go for it.


Condone for profit schools on how much they charge, nothing else. They give you all the materials you need to get the job you want. If your not willing to put in the work then you dont deserve a job.

Originally Posted by Autocon

Completely false. Every studio I interviewed at and whilst working at Bungie all loved the fact that I had a degree. Each art director/art manager I spoke with like the fact that I had a degree. Yes you dont need one to get the job but that is compeltly diffrent from saying it dosnt matter because it dose, just not as much at a traditional job.

They all valued and admired that I was passionate about my chosen career path to spend the time to get a degree. They saw the value in learning from a teacher/mentor much like on the job site. About being forced to work alone on projects or in groups. Having deadlines to meet. Having to present work to others. Taking artistic classes like life drawing, sculpture and shit. A few even really liked the fact that classes that I had to take like animation and scripting gave me a better understanding of the project at large, what goes into the entire game and the type of time and limiting factors those other disciplines have in connection to my own.


I am in no way saying you need to get a degree. I got one, very happy I did. Wouldn't change it to save the 70 grand I spent over the 3 years. Made some of my best friends while at school/contacts at all the company's they now work for.

I feel the college life, the structured environment, the life long friends I made was well worth it to me for 70 grand which in reality is only a year and a half of working in the industry. Yes I think these schools are WAY over priced and there mainly out for the money which wasnt some big surprise to me.

Maybe any article should give insiders from both positions.

But anyhow again. THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT EDUCATION IN GENERAL! IT IS ONLY ABOUT FOR PROFIT SCHOOLS OF A CERTAIN TYPE. AI is included in this type. Your own admissions to me though show the school was after students for income. Not after students whom they knew could make it.

Condone for profit schools on how much they charge, nothing else. They give you all the materials you need to get the job you want. If your not willing to put in the work then you dont deserve a job.

Thats not a school then. Thats having access to a lab.