Alright, so i see time and time again that people tend have trouble doing certain things with hard-shapes and sub-d modeling. So i thought i would try something out here. I'm going to open this up to let people post a reference image of a simple, yet complicated shape(no motorcycles or tanks or stuff like that). And i will try, or maybe some of our other members can help out in this too, to give an example mesh. We'll see how it goes.

I'll make a few simple rules;

First off, if you'de like help with a certain shape all you have to do is this:

1. Post an image, this can be either an example of a model you're struggling with, or simply a reference image of something you dont know how to approach.

And secondly, if you would like to join in:
1. Multiple people can contribute to the same ref, if you think you have a better way, feel free to post. This is all about sharing ideas.
2. Include an image that has a wireframe overlay of the mesh, unsmoothed, and a smoothed shot as well with or without wires.
3. Include the object as .obj. If you do not have webhosting feel free to send me a pm, and I'll put it up for you.


I'll start off with something that i made for Kawe's thread.



also http://johnyontehspot.com/pix/shapething.obj

I'll play along. This is something I attempted recently, for a spaceship I wanted to create in high poly for normal mapping. I find it troublesome to work with subd, as the result is lots of tiny edges too close together on my low poly. Not easy to read, or work down from. My workflow consists of lots of small bevels. For larger shapes, I perform an extrude a small distance to get it started. Extrude the length I want for the shape. And then another small extrude to finish it. I find this to be messier than I expect, which is why I haven't tried more advanced shapes. After this, I decided not to attempt a full ship. What can I improve on?


http://willc3d.com/files/objects/booster.obj

Ok, interesting, this wasn't exactly what i was expecting(as visually this works fine) but i'll try to help as much as i can.

You seem to be asking a little more about workflow stuff, so i'll share a couple good rules i try to use.

First off, to avoid having to deal with very small edges, try and block out all of your shapes before you go back in and add in your edges to keep hard edges, this will make your model a lot cleaner to deal with while you're still nailing down the shape. In addition to that, do not be afraid to remove some of those edges loops when you need to change your shapes up, because often times they are easier to add back in than they are to deal with in a clean fashion.

Secondly, to deal with the problem of having small parts too close to each other(i assume you mean the seams in the panels here?) feel free to physically break those parts off and throw them in a new layer/object so that you can edit them independently of the rest of your mesh. When modeling i try to use as many parts as possible, especially when it comes down to parts that have natural seams like this. I often split my stuff into multiple objects because i need more or less resolution out of certain areas as well. So i may have a basically cylindrical shape in one area, but it could be 12 sides in one spot, and 64 sides in another depending on what level of detail it needs locally.

Another workflow question for the answer man.

Originally Posted by EarthQuake

First off, to avoid having to deal with very small edges, try and block out all of your shapes before you go back in and add in your edges to keep hard edges, this will make your model a lot cleaner to deal with while you're still nailing down the shape. In addition to that, do not be afraid to remove some of those edges loops when you need to change your shapes up, because often times they are easier to add back in than they are to deal with in a clean fashion.

To define hard edges I toss another Edit Poly modifier on top of the stack. That way it doesn't effect the base shape(s) and I can go back if I need to. The problem with doing this is that it often fudges up the hard edges if I go back down and add/remove geometry (push pull is fine). Is there another smarter way to get around this or is this fine?

Cool, good idea EQ.

Ya, I tend to make my low poly (or A lower poly) version first. Then start adding definition where I want/need it. Often, rather than extrude a small amount, extrude a large amount, then extrude another small amount again, it's easier to just extrude the total distance you want, then select one of the edges, ring it, and use the connect dialog to cut all the way around/through, but allow you to position that cut where you want.

You dont see a lot of this now with Zbrush ect, but I was wondering about some common techniques that go into organic sub-d modeling. how and what typically is done with orgainic sub-d? Such as, I see a lot of pillar topping ornamentation that is obviously sub-d.

Awesome EQ,
I'll probably have something more later when I get home

another thing i was wondering is, when eliminating edgeloops, or geometry in max, is it ok to simply weld verts to eliminate face geometry? Are the verts actually gone as well? I know the counts reflect they are, but if there is a way to reverse it, maybe they are not actually gone?..like, not the same thing but, if I weld UV verts I can break them again and get them back, Is it better to delete or weld? a difference?

Originally Posted by Microneezia

You dont see a lot of this now with Zbrush ect, but I was wondering about some common techniques that go into organic sub-d modeling. how and what typically is done with orgainic sub-d? Such as, I see a lot of pillar topping ornamentation that is obviously sub-d.

I think there are plenty of resources for zbrush stuff if thats what you're looking for, i want to keep this thread focused on mechanical sub-d stuff. Now as far as modeling something like that by hand, whew, the simple answer to that is its a shit-ton of work. You just have to do it! I just happen to have a corrinthian pillar i did here for work that i can post some images of, i cant post the obj tho for obvious reasons.

Originally Posted by Microneezia

another thing i was wondering is, when eliminating edgeloops, or geometry in max, is it ok to simply weld verts to eliminate face geometry? Are the verts actually gone as well? I know the counts reflect they are, but if there is a way to reverse it, maybe they are not actually gone?..like, not the same thing but, if I weld UV verts I can break them again and get them back, Is it better to delete or weld? a difference?

In modo what i do is select the edge loop, and hit "remove" instead of "delete". This is really easy and really clean, and can be very useful for other things too(lods because it retains uvs etc). I dont know about max specifically, but i think it has the same features.

ya exactly, i was wondering about the sub-d organic shapes like this... thats really well done, can you let me know, the elongated loopy-loop at the top of each corner, is that extruded along a spline or a spline that has been turned into an editable poly or how was that shape created?

this is a cool thread that i think we should sticky. im gonna contribute to it when i get home tonight

edit: im a dork.

wrong thread crazy mexican.

Vig, just commit to your model, do it all in the base modifier.

oh fuck
i just realized i trolled the wrong thread!

Yeah those twirly bits were extruded along a spline, and then edited a little to merge them into one mesh.

excellent work, thank you, that helped.

I was gonna post a picture of an ionic column because I was also having issues trying to create those swirly bits. Thanks EQ for the wire on that! I'm also considering picking up a copy of modo, it seems cheap enough and seems to own in functionality.

Give the demo a try its like $25(dumb) but i think comes with a bunch of cool instructional stuff. Also i wouldn't shy away from recommending Silo, it has a lot of similar features that modo has, but significantly less expensive.

Is there any specific tip or trick to have cylindrical or spherical objects stay that way when adding divisions/idents/whatever to them?

Originally Posted by Illusions

Is there any specific tip or trick to have cylindrical or spherical objects stay that way when adding divisions/idents/whatever to them?

He's probably wondering how to retain form on your curved objects when adding more divisions. I'd say just start from the beginning that way if you can, but for purely round edges, sometimes you can use a spherify modifier on a selection of the edges in Max.

Originally Posted by Funky Bunnies

sometimes you can use a spherify modifier on a selection of the edges in Max...

Yes, exactly!, some examples of how to practically use modifiers in Sub-d would help immensely. I understand what you mean by saying the quote above, but specific examples where you used it to create the specific shape you created, like EQ has done, would be great! And it would show where people such as yourself have used this technique for success. The fact that it is possible, is one thing, I can use any modifier on any object for example, but showing where this is typically used would go much further to new users of the modifier, and help people realize a practical use for it.

I think that seeing these examples will show people common uses for the modifiers so they can use it in the same way, to start, then later, once they understand a successful useage for the modifier, they will be able to find more uncommon uses for themselves.

If you want to remove edges / optimize a model without breaking your UVs it s easy.
CTRL+Backspace is max default shortcut to remove edge and get rid of vertices.
click me
I use Q for edge loops , W for edge ring and CTRL+ALT+C as collapse for shortcuts (just to let you know as it might be confusing)

STL modifier highlight / select holes of bunch of 'errors' on your mesh...many options, try it.

CSSlide is to slide edge loops...altho I use max's edge constraint and move them to the top, they collide to other edges and stop (that is what I like about it). and then I move them back a bit (that if I want to have the shape of the edge loop above wich is not always the case).

Cool thread!

Hello Guys.

Its my firs thread I'm reading on this forum and my first post as well.
I'm reading it for few days and I'm on page 25 ... too bad the end is near :/

I've readed SO COOL things here about sub-D , went to so amazing links thanks to You. WOW. And seen so amazing portfolios !

EarthQuake, Perna and Bitmap ... Blazer too. Guys , You R sooooo helpful. Respect.
With all respect 4 others.

With all the read I'm doin to push my skills further and further , every time I do Sub_D models , I encounter UV stretching problem. Forgive me , I know it is not this thread , but , thanks to You , I don't have a lot of mesh difficulty ;P and my problem involves Sub_D use.

UV Stretching. Please tell me Guys how You deal with that. I know HP models are made mostly just for normals, but I'm pretty sure You Pros know that nifty little thing that deals with texture stretching when you do so.
I attach picture with that %^@# stretching thing. I already added a lot of additional edges to my object, Yes it helped , but c mon It gets as dense if I would use 2x subD even before i use it. Here is a picture.



One more time , thanks for this thread !
Kuba.

Originally Posted by Brick Top

Yes idd, that's what the front of the turret should look like. A bit more 'oval' I guess, but that's not the issue. Could you please post a wire of that withouth the turbosmooth? That would be much appreciated, thx in advance.

I add some pictures of the parts which are causing 'problems'. Adding the right support edges to get the shape perfect is also diffucult for me at those areas. You can find the .obj file HERE (same as previous).

You should simplify your topology because yours is too messy. You should study the tank and break it down to simple shapes and focus on the small details later. For the turret break it down to a low cylinder 12 sided (low geometry = easier to control shape) and the back end is just box, both of them should be then merged together. Build them into each other and then add more loops to define the shape.

The image below should give you an idea on how the topology should 'kind of' be(as i did this quick and probably should have taken abit more consideration on topology flow for the support edges to come later), its low geometry and the light edges are ones that could be added later to define the shape abit more. The point is, its alot cleaner and you dont need as much geometry as you have to define the shape, just make it simple!

hi guys! i'm new in subd modelling.

I have only one question about n-gons! Are they allowed when trying to get a shape??