The rock sculpts started in zbrush as generic cylinders or boxes, alpha'd the crap out of it with rocky type formation alpha's, then I decimated down to close to game model specs and cleaned it up in Maya. In this pic you can see that normal tool at work. https://www.artstation.com/artwork/cave-mine-63cd7092-6326-4130-9ec5-1d6719be2db3
I think I missed a question related to the rocks. The rocks aren't custom baked assets they are static Geo with tiling textures. Specifically a four layer blend blending from three rock types and a witness drip layer. The game actually uses a normals modifier tool that was custom script for Maya allowing us to manipulate normals to create flat faces as opposed to overly soft surfaces. This allowed edge quality for two edge bevels to look Hi-Rez without the need for 3 to 5 edge bevels. XSI actually does this naturally when you set normals to polygon. I really wish Maya and 3-D studio Max did this by default but unfortunately you have to find a script.
I think I missed a question related to the rocks. The rocks aren't custom baked assets they are static Geo with tiling textures. Specifically a four layer blend blending from three rock types and a witness drip layer. The game actually uses a normals modifier tool that was custom script for Maya allowing us to manipulate normals to create flat faces as opposed to overly soft surfaces. This allowed edge quality for two edge bevels to look Hi-Rez without the need for 3 to 5 edge bevels. XSI actually does this naturally when you set normals to polygon. I really wish Maya and 3-D studio Max did this by default but unfortunately you have to find a script.
Oh yes I've used that script however I've noticed that it has problems with continuing quads. Good example would be a plank. Try creating a single plank with beveled edges. Then add a couple of edge loops. Then try the script again.
The rock sculpts started in zbrush as generic cylinders or boxes, alpha'd the crap out of it with rocky type formation alpha's, then I decimated down to close to game model specs and cleaned it up in Maya. In this pic you can see that normal tool at work. https://www.artstation.com/artwork/cave-mine-63cd7092-6326-4130-9ec5-1d6719be2db3
Any pointers on handling the UV's for them? I had more or less the same workflow for some early stage rock formations in Mad Max but the handling of bevels on messy geometry, semi messy UV's caused by the triangles and all the UV issues that comes with beveling in Maya made it very cumbersome. Is it fair to assume there was a lot of cleanup and extra modeling to get them right?
What can you tell us about the texture creation, I'm curious to see where you started, what you choose to keep and why. Any rules of thumb you discovered?
Any pointers on handling the UV's for them? I had more or less the same workflow for some early stage rock formations in Mad Max but the handling of bevels on messy geometry, semi messy UV's caused by the triangles and all the UV issues that comes with beveling in Maya made it very cumbersome. Is it fair to assume there was a lot of cleanup and extra modeling to get them right?
What can you tell us about the texture creation, I'm curious to see where you started, what you choose to keep and why. Any rules of thumb you discovered?
With the rocks specifically I took the lowest decimation possible back into Maya and marked all relevant rock edges as hard edges then I deleted everything else that wasn't hard and re-triangulated/quadrangulated. Then I just cleaned up the Geo where necessary so that it wasn't wasteful but still able to be blended.
Incredible work! I'm curious on how you went about sculpting/creating the relief as well.
Anything ornate was modeled in maya. Very rarely is it ever worth creating that kind of decor in just zbrush. Traditional modeling and placenent gets the job done.
I am curious how you guys got away with having such dark albedo texture values, and if it caused problems with your lighting. The darker the albedo the less the bounce light, but that doesn't seem to problem in The Order even though a lot of your textures here are fairly dark.
All Order Textures stay with in the 50% mark on the Photoshop levels histogram. Occasionally "Dark" is needed for better blend contrast. The brick shown above was used in multiple cases across the game in both dark and light values. True, you should never go full black, but there are cases in a sooty London where it's unavoidable. The dark portions of the brick used in Black Wall yards were purposefully dark to accent white calcification. Especially inside the burning warehouses.
With the rocks specifically I took the lowest decimation possible back into Maya and marked all relevant rock edges as hard edges then I deleted everything else that wasn't hard and re-triangulated/quadrangulated. Then I just cleaned up the Geo where necessary so that it wasn't wasteful but still able to be blended.
Hey, awesome!!!!!
About the rocks modeling, when you say "lowest decimation", does that means you decimate a high poly using decimation master? Or is it a subdiv level?
Decimation master definitely. I tried using zremesher but the quads never maintained the creased silhouette. Nor did the lowest subdivision level. The easiest thing was to decimate down and clean that up later. The key to it all is identifying silhouettes. Once you identify those specific edges and Harding them then you can identify where your chamfers/Bevels will be.
Really top notch work mr crazyeyes, the order has to be the best looking game ever made.
Could you go over your workflow a bit more please? I really want to find out about this compositor of yours. As I see it you start with your sculpt and you bake it down to a normal map but from there how you do guys, with that compositor of yours, go from that to final material?
I saw some images of simple tiled materials in your gdc talk for a few years back and I really want to know what you do with those as well if you don't mind.
Well, to be completely honest, I'm not nearly that technical. Just like most PBR tools, it smashes down to one cost filtered through the BRDF. What that really means? no idea. that's over my head. lol Tech artists are better equipped to answer that. I would suggest learning substance designer or DDO or both. It's the same logic. Substance designer in particular gives you multiple PBR options weather its a spec gloss or metalness roughness model.
Put you on the spot a bit there didn't I :P I'm no technical guy either, maybe you can describe it in a pure art sence, almost like a step by step using one of your textures as an example? Above you likened it to substance designer or ddo, how so?
Put you on the spot a bit there didn't I :P I'm no technical guy either, maybe you can describe it in a pure art sence, almost like a step by step using one of your textures as an example? Above you likened it to substance designer or ddo, how so?
They have a presentation out there somewhere about their workflow with Mari. I think he's saying it works like Substance or DDO in the sense that you're working with masks and tiling textures, which in the end are composited into the standard albedo, normal, spec, gloss, etc. If you want dust in the crevices, you get a mask of the crevices(whether handpainted or through iterations of masking options in the tool) and load a tiling dust/sand texture there, for example, where it only appears in the masked area and has the albedo/normal/spec/gloss all update together.
They have a presentation out there somewhere about their workflow with Mari. I think he's saying it works like Substance or DDO in the sense that you're working with masks and tiling textures, which in the end are composited into the standard albedo, normal, spec, gloss, etc. If you want dust in the crevices, you get a mask of the crevices(whether handpainted or through iterations of masking options in the tool) and load a tiling dust/sand texture there, for example, where it only appears in the masked area and has the albedo/normal/spec/gloss all update together.
You nailed it. I'll try to come up with a visual representation this weekend and then post it here.
damn ! all your materials and textures look so spot on.
I think I remember seeing that RAD scanned materials for character costumes, did you go through some of the same process for non character related materials ?
And were you only scanning diffuse/albedo or other channels as well (height, spec, gloss, etc.) ?
They have a presentation out there somewhere about their workflow with Mari. I think he's saying it works like Substance or DDO in the sense that you're working with masks and tiling textures, which in the end are composited into the standard albedo, normal, spec, gloss, etc. If you want dust in the crevices, you get a mask of the crevices(whether handpainted or through iterations of masking options in the tool) and load a tiling dust/sand texture there, for example, where it only appears in the masked area and has the albedo/normal/spec/gloss all update together.
It was a modified Mari and a giant library of tiling materials.
Crazyeyes, is it possible for you to explain the tiling method you mentioned a few pages back, regarding the first subtool? I saw that you uploaded an example on Artstation. Any word on Anthony's 2.5 method as well?
I'm sure he'll post soon. As you see in this example, Zbrush uses the first subtool, "the frame", to identify the tiling threshold. Notice the sculpts repeating patterns relative to the frame borders.
Additionally, Zbrush's default plane is another marker you can use for tiling. If you export the default polyplane to maya or max, extrude the border edges out the same distance as the guads on the plane, UV the extra geo connected but outside the 1 to 1 space. Then u don't need a frame. This mesh will tile at the pre-set border before extrusion.
With the ship textures, the hull is straight up maya modeling and z-apped from Zbrush from the al normals. The texturing is all PBR masks and color.
The Hull floor is the same except with some minor zbrush work for the welds.
The tar was created in maya and edited in zbrush. But, the color comes from 2 separate tar studies Masked on for color. The rest is a 3 layer blend.
Replies
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/cave-mine-63cd7092-6326-4130-9ec5-1d6719be2db3
Isn't that kind of what "Vertex Normal Method" set to "Angle And Area Weighted" under mesh control option do in the 2015 version of Maya?
Awesome texture work! Really Inspiring.
Thanks for answering my question! It's exactly what i suspected. I use this script for 3ds max:
http://www.mathieujacquin.com/2013/11/24/maxscript-average-normals-v2/
Oh yes I've used that script however I've noticed that it has problems with continuing quads. Good example would be a plank. Try creating a single plank with beveled edges. Then add a couple of edge loops. Then try the script again.
Is there a Maya equivalent of this script?
Any pointers on handling the UV's for them? I had more or less the same workflow for some early stage rock formations in Mad Max but the handling of bevels on messy geometry, semi messy UV's caused by the triangles and all the UV issues that comes with beveling in Maya made it very cumbersome. Is it fair to assume there was a lot of cleanup and extra modeling to get them right?
What can you tell us about the texture creation, I'm curious to see where you started, what you choose to keep and why. Any rules of thumb you discovered?
It was 1024 across the board with a Texel density of 512 pixels per meter. We also used a custom tool very much like the UV auto ratio tool for Maya.
With the rocks specifically I took the lowest decimation possible back into Maya and marked all relevant rock edges as hard edges then I deleted everything else that wasn't hard and re-triangulated/quadrangulated. Then I just cleaned up the Geo where necessary so that it wasn't wasteful but still able to be blended.
Anything ornate was modeled in maya. Very rarely is it ever worth creating that kind of decor in just zbrush. Traditional modeling and placenent gets the job done.
I am curious how you guys got away with having such dark albedo texture values, and if it caused problems with your lighting. The darker the albedo the less the bounce light, but that doesn't seem to problem in The Order even though a lot of your textures here are fairly dark.
Hey, awesome!!!!!
About the rocks modeling, when you say "lowest decimation", does that means you decimate a high poly using decimation master? Or is it a subdiv level?
Thanks again for sharing!
Could you go over your workflow a bit more please? I really want to find out about this compositor of yours. As I see it you start with your sculpt and you bake it down to a normal map but from there how you do guys, with that compositor of yours, go from that to final material?
I saw some images of simple tiled materials in your gdc talk for a few years back and I really want to know what you do with those as well if you don't mind.
Ill try to get more stuff up this weekend.
They have a presentation out there somewhere about their workflow with Mari. I think he's saying it works like Substance or DDO in the sense that you're working with masks and tiling textures, which in the end are composited into the standard albedo, normal, spec, gloss, etc. If you want dust in the crevices, you get a mask of the crevices(whether handpainted or through iterations of masking options in the tool) and load a tiling dust/sand texture there, for example, where it only appears in the masked area and has the albedo/normal/spec/gloss all update together.
You nailed it. I'll try to come up with a visual representation this weekend and then post it here.
handly in photoshop or with substance or quixel?
what was?
I think I remember seeing that RAD scanned materials for character costumes, did you go through some of the same process for non character related materials ?
And were you only scanning diffuse/albedo or other channels as well (height, spec, gloss, etc.) ?
It was a modified Mari and a giant library of tiling materials.
Crazyeyes, is it possible for you to explain the tiling method you mentioned a few pages back, regarding the first subtool? I saw that you uploaded an example on Artstation. Any word on Anthony's 2.5 method as well?
Additionally, Zbrush's default plane is another marker you can use for tiling. If you export the default polyplane to maya or max, extrude the border edges out the same distance as the guads on the plane, UV the extra geo connected but outside the 1 to 1 space. Then u don't need a frame. This mesh will tile at the pre-set border before extrusion.
With the ship textures, the hull is straight up maya modeling and z-apped from Zbrush from the al normals. The texturing is all PBR masks and color.
The Hull floor is the same except with some minor zbrush work for the welds.
The tar was created in maya and edited in zbrush. But, the color comes from 2 separate tar studies Masked on for color. The rest is a 3 layer blend.