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-   -   xNormal - MASTER THREAD (http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41776)

CrazyButcher 03-01-2006 04:16 AM

xNormal - MASTER THREAD
 
just saw this on opengl.org, might be worth a try, specially with the seemingly not so well working melody

didnt have time to test it, but a well known modeller has helped development

http://www.xnormal.net

Valandar 03-01-2006 06:07 AM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
Eeenteresting... Definitely gonna try it out, see how it goes...

Ruz 03-01-2006 06:48 AM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
hmm, doesn't support quads, it forgets the paths you have just used and it seems to have no exit button. i gave up after that

Eric Chadwick 03-01-2006 07:44 AM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
I find some tools are only worthwhile after I've given the coder some feedback, so they can improve it. Send him your thoughts Ruz, it might turn into something good.
jogshy [at] mixmail.com

That strategery worked great for me with Kaldera, I got a great tool out of it.

Ruz 03-01-2006 09:27 AM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
yeah sure. I think the tri thing is s bit annoying, but the interface was quite nice and i think i got a previous version from this guy working ok, so it should be fine after the bug fixes

jec1183 03-02-2006 09:24 AM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
The exit button is the button that says close on the lower left. I already told him about the quad issue. It still does a really good job of creating normal maps. Unfortunetly it doesn't support high poly floating geometry so if you want your high poly stuff to be transfered over it has to be modeled in seamless which could get annoying with bigger projects.

jogshy 03-04-2006 10:05 PM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
Hi [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I'm taking good note about all your feedback. Atm I am finishing the quad support implementation as well as solving some other bugs.

About the close button... There is! Is that ugly small blue button in the bottom-left! I know my UI art sux badly but... LOL...

I dont know what is the floating geometry thing... Can anybody explain to me pls?

I really wanna thank you all the feedback these days I am getting to improve the program. Please if you have suggestions, bugs or whatever, you can contact me at jogshy [at] mixmail.com as usually or in my web page.

Valandar 03-04-2006 10:40 PM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
As was explained to me:

http://www.iddevnet.com/quake4/ArtRe...CreatingModels

Scroll down until you see the picture of the hi-res knee with the triangular indent.

jogshy 03-06-2006 07:32 PM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
Ok, just uploaded the new xNormal v3.1.0 with quad support, floating geometry support, new LWO importer, new fine detail / 3D viewer format supports, directory restoration, multipart load as well as some minor bug corrections.

Hope you like it. thx for all the feedback.

MoP 03-06-2006 07:34 PM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
It's great that you are responding to feedback and coming here to help us all out with programs like this, jogshy! I'm going to give the new version a try and see if I can think of any suggestions for you [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Thanks again!

pior 03-07-2006 05:26 AM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
Ha cool, glad to see it working! Sorry for not responding faster to your earlier requests man.

Gonna test it asap!

MoP 03-08-2006 09:30 AM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
OK I just gave it a try with a couple of OBJ files, highpoly around 75,000 triangles, lowpoly about 275 triangles.
The normal-map renderer works fine, very fast and quite a good normal map output after tweaking the ray cast distance. However when I tried to turn on the Ambient Occlusion render too, the program would crash every time (usually halfway through the "mipmap 0 level generation" process).
Is this a known bug? My highpoly had floating geometry and was all quads, the lowpoly was all triangles. I was generating a 512x512 texture.

jogshy 03-08-2006 10:33 AM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
Are you using the last 3.1.1 version? Corrected an ambient occlusion in this version... Not sure if is the bug is affecting you though.

MoP 03-08-2006 10:42 AM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
Ah, I had 3.1.0, i'll get the newest version and see if it works [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Edit: Hmm, no, the program crashes at the same point (calculating normals, [mip level 0], just after halfway on the progress bar) with version 3.1.1.

However you were right about the dual monitor thing I emailed you about, I had 2 -> 1 instead of 1 -> 2

jogshy 03-08-2006 12:49 PM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
damm ok, none of the examples the people with that bug sent me crashed on my Duron/Athlon64 ... I will investigate more but I suspect is a Pentium 4 floating point thing .... Anybody with AMD CPUs getting crashes on ambient occlusion generation?

Well, expect a new version in a few days once I locate the problem.

jogshy 03-10-2006 08:52 PM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
Okie! New version v3.1.2 is out!
Btw, I added in my web a small .txt with the changes, so you no longer need to download the 11Mb to see them hehe...

Basically, solved the ambient occlusion crash ( was a problem with Pentium4 dual-cores and hyperthreading ), added camera orbit mode, added Stanford PLY mesh format ( because it appears is very popular in 3d-scanners ), now the 3d viewer supports floating point textures for improved normal map appereance as well as FSAA and anisotropic filtering.

You can download it as usually in http://www.santyesprogramadorynograf.../projects.aspx

Hope you like it!

Daz 03-11-2006 02:55 AM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
Firstly jogshy, I just want to say thanks and how awesome this is that youre getting the community involved in improving what has the potential to be an absolutely killer little app. I'm actually particularly excited about the ambient occlusion map output, since there's currently no way for me to do this in Maya unless I UV map my high poly.

So I just installed your new version and Im still getting a crash at the obj reading stage the same as the prior version. Im wondering If you have a limit either hardcoded or memory based on polycount? My hi poly is humungous ( approx 750,000 tris ) and I'm wondering If this is related to the crash? Any thoughts appreciated. Btw, this is without the AO pass ticked. I have 1.5 gig of Ram If that info helps any. I'd send you the obj but its 75 meg ;-p

MoP 03-11-2006 08:36 AM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
jogshy: Excellent, v3.1.2 fixed the bug I was getting, I can now generate ambient occlusion maps as well as normals! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Also I think the 3d viewer is an awesome tool, since some programs don't have a previewer for this sort of thing, and often I've seen people asking where they can get a free program to view lowpoly meshes with normal maps applied - in future I will tell them to go and use your program [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I took a screenshot of one of my models in it, with diffuse, normal, emissive, spec. power, colour and glossiness maps, and it works very well! You can see a reduced size screengrab here: http://ldaustinart.com/paul/xnormal.jpg
I noticed that my specular/glossiness maps look different in this viewer than in 3dsmax, do you know why that might be? The size of the highlight seems much smaller than the glossiness map should make it seem... any idea why this might be? Is it something I'm doing wrong, or a difference in the program?

The new Camera Orbit tool is very useful, also the mouse control seems to be improved over previous versions? Anyway it works well. I think it would be a good idea to add some colour sliders (like those for the light colour) on the left to change the background colour of the viewer - often models don't look best on a black background, and I'm sure a lot of people would like to be able to use a different coloured background.

As for Daz's problem, I'm gonna try exporting a really big .OBJ file and seeing if I get the same crash, if so it might be a problem with loading very dense highpoly meshes. I'll post results later.

Thanks again, good work! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

MoP 03-11-2006 09:09 AM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
OK after some testing, I'm gonna have to conclude that it's not the size of the OBJ file or amount of polygons the highpoly has - I just successfully used a 1.5 million triangle highpoly mesh (141mb .OBJ file) to generate a normal map.

Daz: OBJ's actually zip up pretty nicely, you could probably get that 75mb OBJ down to about 15mb, which isn't too bad... if you want to get that to me somehow, I could give it a test on my computer to see if it's the OBJ file that's the problem, or some sort of different, hard/software related issue?

jogshy: I tried some more stuff and I think I found another bug - the "Blur pixels" amount will go up, but not down. I can type in any value, and that works fine, but using the arrows to the right, the value only goes up and the "down" arrow doesn't have any effect.

Also I was thinking of something else, in 3dsmax there's an option to use "Supersampling" when rendering a normal map, it's like antialiasing the normal map but I guess it casts more rays and uses an average to determine the pixel colour.
Here is an example of the difference between an xNormal map (which is still very good!), and a 3dsmax "supersampled" map... the smoothness just makes it look a bit more believable.

http://ldaustinart.com/paul/norm-compare.jpg

Is it possible for you to do something like this? I'm sure it's probably not easy to do, but it'd be a great feature and I'm sure would get more people using your program for all their normal-mapping [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Oh, I just thought of something else that would be very useful for the 3d viewer, too! At the moment when you hold CTRL and right-click, the camera orbits ... would it be easy to add something so that CTRL and left-click would make the light orbit? Or maybe CTRL and left-click could rotate the object itself? I think that'd be a useful feature.

Thanks again, keep up the great work! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

jogshy 03-11-2006 10:26 AM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
To MoP:
Impressive artwork, MoP! I love your screenshots! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

I think your spec/glow highlight looks different because I use a default specular power exponent of 32 and 3dsmax 16. You can control it using a specular power map in the 3D viewer ( white pure = 255 exponent = supershiny; black=0 exponent=no shiny ). Notice there is a specular map ( specular color and intensity modulation ) and a specular power map ( specular exponent ) in the 3D viewer texture browser. For more info about Phong specular exponents see these links:

http://mrl.nyu.edu/~perlin/courses/f...rad/phong.html ->See more exponent means more shiny

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specular
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phong_shading

3dsmax uses a fixed shiny exponent of 16 for the Direct3D shading viewport(i think). I use 32 by default for the full mesh unless you specify a "per-pixel-specular-power-texture" ( this is called "variable specular power", if you wanna google it, and notice is NOT the same than specular color modulation, is a different concept )

Also, I'm working to put the "HDR fullscreen glow" in the 3d previewer for the next version.

Atm, I am finishing too the "orbit light" feature ( and a chaos-animated one too ) and the change background color I think is a good suggestion, yep.

Yes, the blur thing is a bug. Ouch! Will correct it asap.

Will include the "supersampling" option as you suggest.

To Daz:
I love your 007 art!

The version 3.1.2 solved a really weird crash-critical-bug in the ambient occlusion generation. Please sure you have the 3.1.2. Ok, if you have the 3.1.2 and still crashes... Have your high poly model UVs and normals? If so, try to re-export it with ONLY positions, then use it with xNormal. Sure too you have only one mesh in your highpoly OBJ. Collapse ALL the meshes into one. Erase any materials, sure all the faces in the highpoly mesh uses only one material(the default material because you erased all the materials previously). Try to triangulate it ( perhaps is a problem with quad faces? ).
Other question... are you using xNormal in Windows and not with Wine or other Linux emulator, right?

If still crashes... Can you send me an email to jogshy [at] mixmail.com with your operating system name and service packs, machine CPU/RAM/hardware, your xNormal XML settings, copy/paste of the exception or error from xNormal and xN_debugLog.txt log file? If you want to send me a thing with +10Mb then please use admin@santyesprogramadorynografista.net

There are no hard-coded limits. The only limit is which your machine supports. Each highpoly triangle occupies 12bytes. Each vertex 12bytes too. The normalmap width*height*20. See the xN_debugLog.txt to know the memory consumed. If you don't have enough RAM installed then expect a nice crash.. In theory Windows should enable virtual memory when physical system RAM is not enough but well... Other posibility is that xNormal goes outta "stack memory" ( 1Mb at the moment ) for the acceleration structures I use ( bsp, octrees, blah blah ). In the next version I will add a visual UI indicator to see how much memory are you using.

If you can enable me a FTP or a download link I will test your 75Mbs models and treat them confidentially. Will erase them once I solve the possible bug, I promise.

To all:
I am working too in a new install method that allows you all not to download 11Mb each time a new version comes, because is a pain, I know [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

And wanna thank you all for all the feedback I'm getting [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

cochtl 03-11-2006 11:24 AM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
You may already know this jogshy, but supersampling doubles (or any multiple the user may want to input for that matter) the current output image resolution and then sizes it back down to the original size so that the output image has finer, crisper detail. I hope that can help in some way [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

This is a really awesome app btw

Daz 03-11-2006 07:54 PM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
Triangulating did the trick many thanks jogshy!

jogshy 03-11-2006 08:20 PM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
I am thinking perhaps quad faces is not enough... What happens if a program uses 8-vertices polygonal faces? If you are using these kind of faces I am pretty sure my OBJ importer will do a nice BOOOOOOOOOOOM!

I am thinking about just triangulate n-verts-polygons too... Save that OBJ Daz, I will put the next version ( omg with tons of new features! ) in a few and probably will need it to test please.

Daz 03-11-2006 08:54 PM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
no problem. Shall I send it to where you referred to above?

jogshy 03-11-2006 09:52 PM

Re: normal/ambiocclusion/heightmap... generator
 
Nah, first I need to implement here a bunch of things hehe
Just conserve that OBJ and test it with the next version I am preparing If you want.

thx Daz.


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