NDO 2- is it worth it? [Archive]

Lazerus Reborn

12-30-2011, 03:31 PM

Last edited by r_fletch_r; Today at 10:08 PM.. Reason: to make it comprehensible

Need's another looking over haha.

NDO 2 costs alot but i was set on buying it when they said i could paint normals with it. Is is worth the cash?

If that's the question then its something I'd like to know too aha.

aajohnny

12-30-2011, 05:13 PM

Yes its worth ever penny

brandoom

12-30-2011, 05:17 PM

Yes.

marks

12-30-2011, 05:17 PM

Installed it ... hardly touch it now. Probably because I almost never touch normalmaps at work though to be fair. If I put the time in to learn it, I might use it a lot more.

Skillmister

12-30-2011, 06:03 PM

Yes and i've only used it for about 15 mins so far but cant wait to do more with it

OBlastradiusO

12-30-2011, 06:04 PM

I bought it and Hell Yeah!

PhattyEwok

12-30-2011, 09:02 PM

Very much yes. It is far from a one trick pony and the normal shapes and painting are so nice! Do it!!!!! The Normals to AO is very nice too..

RJBonner

12-30-2011, 09:04 PM

Oh, you guys!

I watched some demonstrations, and being able to make normals in photoshop made me cream my pants, with my artistic backround being spent mostly in that program. Im sold.

Jesse Moody

12-30-2011, 11:00 PM

why not just give the trial a shot?

Nitewalkr

12-31-2011, 01:17 AM

Sorry to ask this but, is it just for environment? Or you can edit any set of normals with it. Like, normals for organic model.

Synthesizer

12-31-2011, 02:36 AM

It's definitely worth it, and at the rate the discounts are going, they're going to eventually be paying YOU money to take it. It could certainly be used for organic models as well.

MrOneTwo

12-31-2011, 05:19 AM

why not just give the trial a shot?

This post wins internet ! Check what it can do and judge by yourself...

passerby

12-31-2011, 05:45 AM

worth every penny, i was on the beta used ndo1 before it and payed full price for it with no regrets.

i still do highpolys though what i i started doing was baking to get my nice edges and useing NDO2 for anything i would have floated before.

really as cheap as $99 for a commercial license between 59 and 69 for non comercial, with a free 30 day trial so not expensive at all.

uncle

12-31-2011, 10:14 AM

It also has 35% discount now so...

Bart

12-31-2011, 10:28 AM

Just about to get it :) Really want to implement this into my workflow.

Joshua Stubbles

12-31-2011, 10:40 AM

Absolutely worth it. There are some quirks about it, but Teddy is fast at releasing updates to fix issues that people post about in the support forum. I've been using it a lot at home to get more comfortable with it, before presenting it to my studio to purchase a full set of seats.

It's extremely useful for a lot of simple things, BSP-type texturing and the like. I also use it for adding details on top of my baked normals via sculpt layers, instead of modeling all of that with floating geometry.

The actual quality of the NDo normals is amazing - it's 100% identical to a fully modeled bake. It can't replace modeling/sculpting, since there are things that always need to be modeled to get good base normals. But there is a ton you can get away with using NDo. Insets, panel lines, screws/bolts, cables - you name it. Saves a ton of time. I did a test of creating a simple inset rectangle that has a slope on the inside. Took about 3 minutes or so to model. In NDo it took about 15 seconds. The visual differences were nonexistent. They looked exactly the same, both in Photoshop and on the mesh in Max.

You can argue that creating a greeble library of kitbash components speeds up the use of floating geometry and that's true, but floating geo can also be a pain to deal with when baking, making sure your cages or offsets fully encompass the geometry and all that. In the end, it just depends on what you're comfortable using.

biofrost

12-31-2011, 11:06 AM

As others have stated it is so worth it. While you still will need to bake to get good edges and the such NDO2 is perfect for small details. The feature I have been using the most in the Normal to AO tool, it works much better than normal baking.

If you were to make a model and have floating geo you would end up having to go back and fix up the AO around the edges most likely but with NDO2 that is no longer a problem!

Needless to say I have worked it into my workflow and I am not sure how I could go back.

metalliandy

12-31-2011, 12:58 PM

nDo 2 is awesome and definitely worth the money.
As Joshua said, Teddy is super fast at fixing bugs and adding feature requests, so you can't go wrong.
There is a learning curve (as with everything), but once you get around that, then you will be flying :)

mLichy

12-31-2011, 03:24 PM

Im tempted to get it, but will wait until I need to start doing more normal maps again. But like the others have said, doing small details looks to be very fast, and would save time I'm sure.

PhilipK

12-31-2011, 03:26 PM

I pretty much never bake anything anymore (there are occasions when I still do). It's just so much faster most of the time and I can improvise a lot more AND try out things like shapes, scale and repetition in my textures WAY faster than if I would have baked out everything.

So yeah, IMO it's definitely worth it :)

Joshua Stubbles

01-01-2012, 01:09 AM

The normals quality is really fantastic, too. They're full 3D normals, not the junk you get from the Nvidia filter, or even using Crazybump to convert heightmaps (not that CB is junk by any means!).

In a few minutes I threw this together in Photoshop, whereas it would have taken at least 15 minutes to model it in Max, set it up for baking and rendering the maps.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2355669/ndo.jpg

It won't replace modeling or baking by any means, but it's an awesome supplemental tool.

mLichy

01-01-2012, 08:12 AM

His site doesn't work for me anymore. Is it down for everyone else too?

Joshua Stubbles

01-01-2012, 08:30 AM

It's working for me, Lichy.

metalliandy

01-01-2012, 08:35 AM

Works for me too.
http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/http://www.quixel.se/

mLichy

01-01-2012, 02:30 PM

I think my Malwarebytes is blocking it for some reason. It didn't before though.

Nitewalkr

01-01-2012, 06:43 PM

Its for environment artist's use only...Good to know. I'll keep a look out for it when I start making environment for my project and in the dire need of this.

It looks amazing tho.

UltraLrod

01-01-2012, 08:04 PM

Now I'm very tempted to get it. Good price value. Have to get it when I get pay. Anyone on here has any work using nDo 2 on here?

JasonLavoie

01-01-2012, 08:10 PM

worth it :)

mLichy

01-02-2012, 07:09 AM

I bought it. I guess last night was the last night for the discount too. I got for 45$.

mLichy

01-02-2012, 07:10 AM

Nevermind, you can still get it

Joshua Stubbles

01-02-2012, 04:18 PM

I did two more quick tests today. The quality really is great.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2355669/ndo2.jpghttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/2355669/ndo3.jpg

Right now there's a problem with creating documents without edge bevels (NDo crashes), but Teddy and I have been working back and forth on the issue - hopefully that gets solved soon. That's a big deal for anyone painting new tileable images from scratch using sculpt layers like this.

Definitely worth the investment. Once the edge bevel issue is resolved I'll be asking my studio to pick up seats for all artists.

Jesse Moody

01-02-2012, 04:44 PM

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2355669/ndo2.jpg

How long did this take you Josh?

WarrenM

01-02-2012, 05:08 PM

So what's the secret to getting FBX files imported into NDO? I exported it triangulated, which stopped the corruption effect, but my UVs are still totally messed up. Halp?

Joshua Stubbles

01-02-2012, 05:22 PM

How long did this take you Josh?

Less than 20 minutes, can't recall exact time. 10-15 maybe? The hardest part is learning the NDo settings and functionality. Once I get more familiar, it will be even faster.

So what's the secret to getting FBX files imported into NDO? I exported it triangulated, which stopped the corruption effect, but my UVs are still totally messed up. Halp?

if you check the NDo forums, it looks like there's a running bug on this. I've had it happen a few times myself. Teddy is looking into it. I also requested support for mirrored UVs and custom tangents/binormals on custom meshes, as the FBX format includes those.

mLichy

01-03-2012, 07:32 AM

Whats that wireframe look like on that piece Josh?

Joshua Stubbles

01-03-2012, 09:08 AM

The one jesse quoted? It's just a flat plane. Not displacement map, either

Blaisoid

01-03-2012, 09:08 AM

looks like a flat plane to me.

edit: ninja'd

mLichy

01-03-2012, 09:43 AM

Thats what I thought, but just wanted to be sure.

David-J

01-03-2012, 10:26 AM

has anyone used Crazybump and nDo? just wondering what are the main differences?

Justin Meisse

01-03-2012, 10:42 AM

Its for environment artist's use only...Good to know. I'll keep a look out for it when I start making environment for my project and in the dire need of this.

It looks amazing tho.

I worked at a studio that used something similar to this on character armor

WarrenM

01-03-2012, 10:51 AM

has anyone used Crazybump and nDo? just wondering what are the main differences?
Primarily that NDO allows for live updating of the textures via Photoshop whereas CrazyBump works on static versions. So with nDo you can paint the normal map and see updates immediately.

There are probably lots of techy differences but to me that's the largest one.

uncle

01-03-2012, 11:41 AM

Also Crazybump doesn't have affordable price for freelancer :/

metalliandy

01-03-2012, 12:11 PM

has anyone used Crazybump and nDo? just wondering what are the main differences?

The main differences between CB and nDO is that nDo is PS based and CB is external.

I tend to use nDo if i'm generating a normal map exclusively in PS, as it reduces the steps from heightmap> crazybump and you can make the normals from selections and brush strokes etc., which is really awesome, but for everything else I tend to use CB as it's super fast at generating really high quality normals.

They are both are great tools and can be combined to great effect and it's all down to personal choice really. Both programs are amazing, IMHO :)

Also Crazybump doesn't have affordable price for freelancer :/
The personal license for CrazyBump allows for freelancer usage and its $99 ;)

Agreed! The personal license needs revision.

how about this...

Henceforth, any individual or small team (fewer than 8 people), which is not connected to a larger corporation, may use the personal license for work on commercial games to be self-published on the web, self-published through Apple's app store, or through Xbox Live indie games. (If you're working with a publishing company, then you still need the pro license.)

If you're wanting to publish through some other distribution method, drop me a line.
http://www.crazybump.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=828&highlight=&sid=9b82d2f9cc74d12224a046a5edc4590b

David-J

01-03-2012, 12:16 PM

thanks metalliandy. Good explanation. I want to give it a try. Making panels and stuff for sci fi seems perfect for nDo.

uncle

01-03-2012, 12:18 PM

The personal license for CrazyBump allows for freelancer usage and its $99 ;)

http://www.crazybump.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=828&highlight=&sid=9b82d2f9cc74d12224a046a5edc4590b

Thanks, good to know. This info is rather well hidden :).

By the way, I heard NDO2 is rather resource-hungry and works relatively slow even on strong hardware. Is that true? If not, can anyone post rig good enough to handle it?

Also, how so called zipping the layer affects performance?

Gannon

01-03-2012, 12:31 PM

TL;DR

You're crazy if you even have to ask :P

metalliandy

01-03-2012, 02:35 PM

thanks metalliandy. Good explanation. I want to give it a try. Making panels and stuff for sci fi seems perfect for nDo.

No problem :)

Thanks, good to know. This info is rather well hidden :).

By the way, I heard NDO2 is rather resource-hungry and works relatively slow even on strong hardware. Is that true? If not, can anyone post rig good enough to handle it?

Also, how so called zipping the layer affects performance?

No problem :)

That is a tough question to answer, tbh. Some things can take a short amount of time to perform the initial calculations etc., but I wouldn't say it it prohibitively slow at all.
For instance, If you are using a preset that has a ton different things to do, it will take more time than a simpler one.

The Leather Cushion preset takes my PC 25 seconds to finish from the time I click go. This might sound like a reasonably long time, but not when considering it has 25 different layers and 21 layer effects applied, plus a bunch of different groups. The zipping of layers dramatically increases the responsiveness of the PSD's too :)

mLichy

01-03-2012, 03:24 PM

Well and Crazybump you can't handpaint normals like Ndo, Transform them in realtime, ect.

Ace-Angel

01-03-2012, 06:56 PM

Let me put it this way:

Edge normal maps in 3D App and details in nDo, mix and voila, less headache to take care of.

mLichy

01-04-2012, 09:21 AM

Ive been messing with Ndo more, and its pretty awesome.

Although, I've had it crash 2 times now in about 15-20min, working only on 2-3 layers, the others zipped, where it is in the middle of an action and stops. So from there I dont think its recoverable?

Joshua Stubbles

01-04-2012, 10:39 AM

Just undo a few steps in the history until it looks normal. Then re-open NDo :)

mLichy

01-04-2012, 11:11 AM

Ok, good to know

tekmatic

01-04-2012, 07:30 PM

@mLichy, You mentioned that you paid $45 for NDO2, Which license did you buy and am not seeing that price on the site. Let me know when you get a chance.

Cheers

chrismaddox3d

01-04-2012, 08:42 PM

It has been on sale for last few weeks 30% to 35% off sale any license.
Picked me up a copy and loving it.
Looking now and looks like the New Years and Xmas sales codes are not on the site.
I am sure they will have another sale once a another major holiday is around.

Parnell

01-04-2012, 09:39 PM

Skillmister

01-05-2012, 03:35 AM

Sucks that i hurried to pull the cash together after christmas to get it for 25% off then 2 days later its 35% off :(

fonfa

01-05-2012, 03:56 AM

I gotta say it's a little weak when their Twitter feed along the top of their site says 35% off just use the NDO2FORALL code. Then I plug it in and no dice. Just last night the code worked so I go into work and try to get my office to buy copies telling them it's 30% off and now it says it won't? Eh?
B

Same here, checked it yesterday and it worked fine, decided to buy it and it's gone. Oh well, will do it some other time. Looks pretty good though

SnowInChina

01-05-2012, 04:14 AM

I gotta say it's a little weak when their Twitter feed along the top of their site says 35% off just use the NDO2FORALL code. Then I plug it in and no dice. Just last night the code worked so I go into work and try to get my office to buy copies telling them it's 30% off and now it says it won't? Eh?
B

yep. i thought i could get it in time too, too bad i dont have paypal or credit card =(
and these european taxes are eating me up !

mLichy

01-05-2012, 07:45 AM

Yeah, it was New Years Deal or something, so I grabbed it quick. It said it ended on the 1st or w/e it was.

SnowInChina

01-05-2012, 08:04 AM

just received a message from teddy !
since i wrote him a message, asking for alternative payment methods, while the new years deal was still active i will still receive my 35% off !

happy customer count : +1

mLichy

01-06-2012, 08:04 AM

When I convert a Normal to Cavity and Specular, should Ndo also create a Diffuse/Displacement first, then do the other two??

Is eating up quite a bit of time/processing to do those first, then do the ones I want last. If that's how it works, then ok. Just making sure!

mLichy

01-06-2012, 08:06 AM

Also, it would be nice if there was an option to toggle TopMost for the 3D Preview. So I can move other windows over it like Chat, and minimize/move chat instead of closing/moving the 3D Object :).

Edit: Nevermind, found it :)

Joshua Stubbles

01-06-2012, 08:53 AM

You can turn off "always on top" in the NDo prefs, if that helps.

mLichy

01-06-2012, 11:28 AM

Yeah, saw that right after I posted ;)

Irreal

01-11-2012, 04:33 PM

Can you still instantiate layers like in ndo 1? I see the option to duplicate a layer but i can't find anything to do with instancing a layer.

Snacuum

01-11-2012, 07:35 PM

Damn that looks awesome, I love how the preview is just slapped on top, no need to take yourself out of the editor to go check that it works in a previewer.

Nitewalkr

01-11-2012, 07:49 PM

I worked at a studio that used something similar to this on character armor

Similar?

Crazy bump? Or Custom. You know I almost bought nDo 2 until I read the reviews, there were many pieces made for environment instead of character.

It would be good for something like, a leather belt, or leather jacket. Unless there is a solid use to make the normals for skin or something (tho it might be, but not demonstrated as yet) I'll leave it for later.

I already have too many softwares related to 3d. :(

ambershee

01-12-2012, 05:00 AM

I'm very tempted to pick it up, but there doesn't seem to be an awful lot of documentation / tutorial material for it out there?

Joshua Stubbles

01-12-2012, 06:55 AM

there doesn't seem to be an awful lot of documentation / tutorial material for it out there?

Ummm reaaaaally? The official rundown thread has a ton of good information: http://quixel.se/forum/index.php?topic=5.0

Three vids:

nDo2 tutorials: Map Generation - YouTube
nDo2 tutorials: Photo-normals - YouTube
nDo2 tutorials: Custom Presets (+UDK) - YouTube

I'll also be doing an NDo tutorial for an online site in another week or so.

If this isn't enough information to at least get you started, there's no hope for ya. The best learning experience is practice.

ambershee

01-12-2012, 07:09 AM

Uly

01-12-2012, 09:31 AM

I don't do video tutorials; I find them difficult to follow and you cannot use them for quick reference, which for me renders them largely useless.
... wow.

ambershee

01-12-2012, 09:46 AM

Yes, I know I'm against the curve there in a forum full of artists who usually seem to want everything presented in some sort of video format - but you can't go back to a 30 minute video and hit 'Ctrl+F' to find that small bit you were looking for. That's an absolute killer - like I said before, you just can't use it for quick reference, and if you do need to find something specific (what's the name of that tickbox again?) you have to sit and flick through the video until you find what you were looking for. That's painful. Something like text and images? I can just search for appropriate terms.

The other issue with video tutorials is that they often only focus on getting a specific task-at-hand dealt with and don't actually go into detail regarding your options for various ends. When they do do this, it's a pain in the arse to skip through it when you don't want to cover it; so you just cannot win.

mLichy

01-12-2012, 09:48 AM

I don't do video tutorials; I find them difficult to follow and you cannot use them for quick reference, which for me renders them largely useless.

Yeah,...? If you watch it once, you can note down times to look for in the video for certain info, or... just write it down. That's what I did when I went through alot of Maxscript videos, just rewatched parts and mainly took notes.

I think Videos can explain alot more than screenshots can.

mLichy

01-12-2012, 09:50 AM

Yes, I know I'm against the curve there in a forum full of artists who usually seem to want everything presented in some sort of video format

.....

The other issue with video tutorials is that they often only focus on getting a specific task-at-hand dealt with and don't actually go into detail regarding your options for various ends.

You just basically said you don't want to have it all explained to you, but you do.

Bertmac

01-12-2012, 10:02 AM

For real, I don't understand that people are shouting that Ndo is just/mainly for hard surface/environment use. I mean how did use to make your bump maps back in the day.

ambershee

01-12-2012, 10:23 AM

If you watch it once, you can note down times to look for in the video for certain info, or... just write it down. That's what I did when I went through alot of Maxscript videos, just rewatched parts and mainly took notes.

When coming back to a tool after six or more weeks of not using it, it's unlikely that those original notes are still kicking about. It also implies I have the ability to prophetically divine what I'll need to quickly look up in the future - which is somewhat unlikely.

You just basically said you don't want to have it all explained to you, but you do.

No, I didn't. I implied there are times when you need one or the other; an explanation of the capabilities of a tool, or an explanation of how to achieve something specific given a certain tool. A video will only ever provide one of the above, and it is usually the latter. In cases of the former, videos become extremely long and unwieldy.

I think Videos can explain alot more than screenshots can.

I don't disagree, they can - but I can't rely on them to give me what I find I most commonly need; something I can quickly look at to answer simple questions. I'm just trying to get people to understand why I do not like relying on video tutorials. It's not like my reasons are unfathomable to the human mind, they do make sense if you actually try to see where I'm coming from.

Ace-Angel

01-12-2012, 11:04 AM

Seriously dude, give it a break. The reasons you're citing are minor and laughable at best.

Text tutorials very rarely have a leg up on video tutorials, let alone easy to use with Ctrl+F, I can't tell you how many times I looked up a word only to have it break because it couldn't find the word correctly (Warp vs Wrap), instead forcing me to write a part of the sentence to get what I need.

Or how about typing in an abbreviation/lingo word only to cycle through 10 different paragraphs which don't have the word in the first place? Yeah, that was just dandy.

I agree nDo's so called 'tutorials' are rubbish, and if you didn't use ndo1, then ndo2 will be a tad bit nightmarish to get on grips with, but for everything that is Holy, don't put every video tutorials on the same level of nDo's tutorials, let alone complain about them as whole.

nDo videos = rubbish, most others = not rubbish, see where I'm coming from?

How about instead you get a little free player known as VLC, and take snapshots of the respective parts of the video you wish to keep in stock? Or even better, make VIDEO BOOKMARKS! Yes, you can do that with VLC, you ca literally bookmarks parts of the video you wish to access, something which in text format, ONLY PDF files have which work properly on different formats and PC's unlike say Documents which can break from PC to PC, amazing what FREE TECH can do to ease your life.

Justin Meisse

01-12-2012, 11:17 AM

I remember when all you got was a readme.txt that told you how to install the program. It was linked before but everything you need to know is here (http://quixel.se/forum/index.php?topic=5.0)

adam

01-13-2012, 12:40 PM

The official rundown is more or less just screenshots of the interface, I wouldn't call it documentation (let alone a 'ton' of useful information), but it is useful nevertheless.

I don't do video tutorials; I find them difficult to follow and you cannot use them for quick reference, which for me renders them largely useless.

So you're a needy artist who has to have tutorials specifically created for your method of learning? And when someone goes out of their way to help you by listing 3 perfectly good tutorials you not only find it useless, but do not thank him for trying to help?

I just broke both eyebrows from rolling my eyes so hard.

Hugh

01-13-2012, 01:32 PM

So you're a needy artist who has to have tutorials specifically created for your method of learning? And when someone goes out of their way to help you by listing 3 perfectly good tutorials you not only find it useless, but do not thank him for trying to help?

I just broke both eyebrows from rolling my eyes so hard.

ambershee always does rude stuff.An you can never tell him he is wrong enough for him to agree.